Wigan-Bolton services after electrification?

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why not give Clifton a few more services?

Has there been many requests from residents in the general area for more rail services to call at Clifton station? I was under the impression that the local bus services met the demand.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

What’s the problem with 769s not changing mode?

Their engines sometimes don't turn on, happened on Monday and yesterday, but fortunately out of the way in Bolton P5, which is the only location* changing to diesel happens now.
If changing to electric fails the engines can just be left on and used instead, but that doesn't work for going to Southport

Not sure what you mean by "agricultural units", but the 769s have been consistently more unreliable compared to new build bi-modes like the 75x and 80x.

There's only 8 of them and it's incredibly rare that the booked 6 diagrams all have 769s.


* If they are diverted via Atherton they'll change at Salford Crescent, and they can also switch at Victoria to go to Newton Heath depot.

 

[Halish Railway]

This doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me. Running the exact same service frequency as currently with a different traction type is dependent on extra capacity at Salford???

I’d imagine that if 2tph Wigan Northwestern to Stalybridge did happen there’d be a total of 5tph between Wigan and Salford Crescent - The two services just mentioned, two originating at Southport and one from Wigan, up from the total of four today.

Might not sound like a lot but it could prove difficult to work if you’re trying to have trains running on a clockface half-hourly schedule unlike the current status quo with trains from Southport, as well as all the other timetabling constraints services going through Salford Crescent face.

 

[Gricer99]

Apparently, Northern have uploaded May to July services in RTT. Very surprisingly, there appears to be no major change to the timetable happening in May.

 

[td97]

Unambitious at best.
The timetable in North Manchester has been fixed since December 2022. This project commenced in September 2021, so has had the best part of 3 years to come up with a timetable to utilise the electrification.
Letting the £100m investment sit unused for another 6+ months is wasteful.

 

[Halish Railway]

Unambitious at best.
The timetable in North Manchester has been fixed since December 2022. This project commenced in September 2021, so has had the best part of 3 years to come up with a timetable to utilise the electrification.
Letting the £100m investment sit unused for another 6+ months is wasteful.

Apparently, Northern have uploaded May to July services in RTT. Very surprisingly, there appears to be no major change to the timetable happening in May.

The Southport trains will all call at Ince so the 769s can make use of the electrification, so that’s 8.5 miles more of electric running, including the steepest ascent on route. It’s not going to change the world but it’s a step in the right direction. I wouldn’t be surprised if the introduction of the full electric service is dependent on the completion of platform 3 at Salford Crescent, so maybe give it another year and it may happen.

 

[Dspatula]

The Southport trains will all call at Ince so the 769s can make use of the electrification, so that’s 8.5 miles more of electric running, including the steepest ascent on route. It’s not going to change the world but it’s a step in the right direction. I wouldn’t be surprised if the introduction of the full electric service is dependent on the completion of platform 3 at Salford Crescent, so maybe give it another year and it may happen.

I suspect it has more to do with crew training for 323s. That's quite the uplift at Ince, does suggest power change over is moving although I was under impression Network rail weren't keen on power change overs in non loop-able places.

 

[Halish Railway]

I suspect it has more to do with crew training for 323s. That's quite the uplift at Ince, does suggest power change over is moving although I was under impression Network rail weren't keen on power change overs in non loop-able places.

There are a few places where a changeover happens in an area without a loop or diversionary route, such as Stowmarket.

 

[Dspatula]

There are a few places where a changeover happens in an area without a loop or diversionary route, such as Stowmarket.

Sorry I meant with 769s specifically.

 

[david l]

Understand that Ince stops are to be introduced on all Southport services from May 2025, as this will be the changeover point for the 769's once electric services are introduced later in the year.

 

[Gricer99]

That's the line blocked at Ince regularly, then!

 

[td97]

Network Rail's performance manager must have hit the roof during that briefing

 

[Geeves]

To be fair the majority of the time the train is a straight DMU so I don't suppose it's as much of an issue as it could be! We will see.

 

[Nottingham59]

That's the line blocked at Ince regularly, then!

Wouldn't they just park westbound changeover failures in the 86m bay at Wigan NW? I doesn't seem that intensively used.
And failures to changeover eastbound can just stay on diesel, can't they?

 

[Gricer99]

Is that the bay platform they intend to use for the half hourly Staklbridge service? How will it get there if the diesel fails? We will need a Thunderbird at Springs depot!

 

[Nottingham59]

Is that the bay platform they intend to use for the half hourly Staklbridge service? How will it get there if the diesel fails? We will need a Thunderbird at Springs depot!

I understand all platforms at WNW are electrified, and accessible from Ince on AC.

 

[Geeves]

Wouldn't they just park westbound changeover failures in the 86m bay at Wigan NW? I doesn't seem that intensively used.
And failures to changeover eastbound can just stay on diesel, can't they?

The problem isn't just a case of simply not being able to 'swap over', in the many cases the train will just not move for what ever reason, and then its either the fitter comes out if he is there or waiting to get through to Maintenance, some times the train is completely dead at the point of change over, no power for anything, DEAD.

The bays (bay) at Wigan NW has always had wires so that's no problem if they were ending there vs going through to Southport

 

[GhostManDN91]

Yep as there is a 20:09 and 21:09 on weekdays from Manchester Victoria to Wigan NW which is booked as a 769. Normally goes to Springs Branch on AC after it arrives. Diesel from Bolton then puts the pantograph up at Wigan again.

 

[507020]

The problem isn't just a case of simply not being able to 'swap over', in the many cases the train will just not move for what ever reason, and then its either the fitter comes out if he is there or waiting to get through to Maintenance, some times the train is completely dead at the point of change over, no power for anything, DEAD.

The bays (bay) at Wigan NW has always had wires so that's no problem if they were ending there vs going through to Southport

Yes if the changeover fails then the unit is completely dead, like a straight EMU stranded off the wires, but if the changeover fails at Ince blocking the line, they can always put the pantograph back up and continue to North Western on AC, then dump the unit at Springs Branch. That will have to be the rule

Unless of course the service goes via Atherton, then it won’t be on Diesel when it gets to Ince.

 

[td97]

There is an article in Rail with the initial paragraph stating Northern intend to use both 323s and 769s on the line this year (the remainder of the article is subscriber only).

Northern outlines plans for Wigan-Bolton route once OLE is commissioned

Overhead wires have been switched on with further testing needed before electric-powered passenger services can run.

www.railmagazine.com

 

[Starmill]

Yes if the changeover fails then the unit is completely dead, like a straight EMU stranded off the wires, but if the changeover fails at Ince blocking the line, they can always put the pantograph back up and continue to North Western on AC, then dump the unit at Springs Branch. That will have to be the rule

Unless of course the service goes via Atherton, then it won’t be on Diesel when it gets to Ince.

You can't write a timetable around a what if of an unreliable train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is an article in Rail with the initial paragraph stating Northern intend to use both 323s and 769s on the line this year (the remainder of the article is subscriber only).

Northern outlines plans for Wigan-Bolton route once OLE is commissioned

Overhead wires have been switched on with further testing needed before electric-powered passenger services can run.

www.railmagazine.com

Is the rolling stock situation of Northern such that they still need the Class 769 units?

 

[Halwynd]

Now that the 'slow' Southport - Stalybridge has had another station stop introduced at Ince, and the other Manchester service terminates at Oxford Road, surely Northern must now be running out of ideas to make Southport - Manchester services even more unattractive?

Perhaps a pathing stop at Burnden Jcn might waste a few more minutes, or a call at Clifton to pick up nobody...

Not that long ago one Southport - Manchester service was a limited stopper via Atherton and terminated at Victoria. OK, its a miserable station with poor facilities, but at least Victoria is more convenient for most than Oxford Road. And I remember Wigan having a fast service Wigan - Stalybridge calling only at Bolton, Salford Crescent and Victoria... today it's every lamp post.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Not that long ago one Southport - Manchester service was a limited stopper via Atherton and terminated at Victoria. OK, its a miserable station with poor facilities, but at least Victoria is more convenient for most than Oxford Road.

The limited stop service via Atherton was a peak-hour only service. The provision of services to Oxford Road and Piccadilly was partly about providing direct trains to the south side of the city centre and is well used by commuters, so much so that attempts to end the link are met by strong resistance. Southport to Manchester Airport was introduced in BR days and became one of the Network NorthWest express routes. It's only the need to rationalise the Castlefield corridor services that led to it being changed.

The service neatly captures the difficulty of providing a sustainable timetable when there is genuine demand to access both north and south sides of the city centre. Not everyone wants to go to Victoria.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The limited stop service via Atherton was a peak-hour only service.

I've found in the May - September 2019 timetable a Rochdale -> Southport that skips all stops between Rochdale and Victoria as well as, Swinton, Moorside, Hag Fold, Hindley, Ince, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane (ok those last 3 aren't a suprise, they still only have a train every other hour).

This appears to have run starting at Rochdale at xx:39 from 8:39 until the late evening.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not that long ago one Southport - Manchester service was a limited stopper via Atherton and terminated at Victoria. OK, its a miserable station with poor facilities, but at least Victoria is more convenient for most than Oxford Road.

Depends on what "convenient" places you may want to use that either Victoria or Oxford Road railway stations serve. Both stations are "convenient" for different locations of note,

 

[Manutd1999]

2ph Rochdale-Southport via Atherton (DMU) and 2ph Stalybridge-Wigan via Bolton (EMU) is a sensible service pattern IMO, minimising the crossing moves around Ordsall.

when there is genuine demand to access both north and south sides of the city centre. Not everyone wants to go to Victoria.

This is also true for Rochdale, Blackburn etc. - which have to make-do with Victoria because that's what is best for the overall network. Aside from historial precedent, I'm not sure why an exception should be made for Southport.....

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I've found in the May - September 2019 timetable a Rochdale -> Southport that skips all stops between Rochdale and Victoria as well as, Swinton, Moorside, Hag Fold, Hindley, Ince, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane (ok those last 3 aren't a suprise, they still only have a train every other hour).

This appears to have run starting at Rochdale at xx:39 from 8:39 until the late evening.

The true limited stop peak-hour trains also missed Walkden, Hindley and Gathurst.

This is also true for Rochdale, Blackburn etc. - which have to make-do with Victoria because that's what is best for the overall network. Aside from historial precedent, I'm not sure why an exception should be made for Southport.....

Not directly comparable. From Rochdale you have to go to Victoria to reach Oxford Road and that's only been possible since the Ordsall Chord was built. And until relatively recently Blackburn had just an hourly connection to Manchester so it was bound to serve only one side of the city centre.

OTOH Southport's half-hourly service is well established and also provides part of Wigan's service to Manchester. No surprise that one service goes to Oxford Road. Then again the Atherton line has only ever had trains to Castlefield during engineering works: such occasions have been few and far between. Otherwise it's Victoria every time.

Of course some of the timetabling issues would be overcome if certain key junctions were grade-separated, but we are where we are.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I've found in the May - September 2019 timetable a Rochdale -> Southport that skips all stops between Rochdale and Victoria as well as, Swinton, Moorside, Hag Fold, Hindley, Ince, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane (ok those last 3 aren't a suprise, they still only have a train every other hour).

Skipping Hindley was usually due to spacing between train paths - there was normally a via Bolton service literally a few minutes behind.

 

[stan claire]

It'd make sense if they changed the Southports to run via Atherton with one an hour to Leeds and another to Oxford Road. If they can get the 350/2s then they could use these and 323s to run a half-hourly Wigan - Stalybridge service. It'd be even better if they ran these fast between Bolton and Salford and have another 3/4 car EMU shuttle between Bolton and Victoria serving all stops to retain clockface 30 minute frequency and then use 6 car 323s on Wigan services. An hourly shuttle between Wigan and Headbolt Lane should be doable, only needs 1 unit (or 2 if they wanted to leave more than 5 minutes to turn round after each service)
It'd also be great if they could change the Manchester - Edinburgh TPEs to run via Wigan as there's constantly issues at Euxton Junction with the stopping Airport services being delayed to let the TPE through first and the same at Bolton with the Blackpool services (one of which happens to me at least once a week), which could be avoided if they ran the TPEs an alternative route