Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[30907]

Standing on the platforms at LBG, ZFD and STP this evening every relevant departure had "First class at the front" scrolling constantly. Simple.

 

[AlterEgo]

Standing on the platforms at LBG, ZFD and STP this evening every relevant departure had "First class at the front" scrolling constantly. Simple.

Yes but it’s also at the rear. It’s not that simple at all. That’s how many laypeople will view it.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Yes but it’s also at the rear.

If it is also at the rear, then nobody will feel entitled to sit in it. This is the right side of this so-called ambiguous dilemman in terms of not getting fined.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe staff should go up to everyone waiting for a train to explain how first class works, thus doing away with any ambiguity.

 

[AlterEgo]

If it is also at the rear, then nobody will feel entitled to sit in it. This is the right side of this so-called ambiguous dilemman in terms of not getting fined.

It's almost like first class should either be first class or not, instead of a liminal space which is sometimes subject to severe penalties or prosecution, and sometimes subject to a free for all. This affects first class ticket holders too; people routinely sit in the "classified" section without the correct ticket, sometimes chancing it, but often not. Allowing people to routinely sit in the "nicer part of the train" without upgrade also cannibalises the product.

Maybe staff should go up to everyone waiting for a train to explain how first class works, thus doing away with any ambiguity.

That would be good actually, because explaining that first class becomes first class, not because of any improvement in service or ambience, but merely because the train company decides it will be so (on certain routes, at certain times and at a certain place on the train but related to the direction of travel) would show just what a stupid policy it is. A real relic of bad decision making; why even bother with the second first class section which magically becomes standard class when the train reverses, at all?

 

[Tram203]

Standing on the platforms at LBG, ZFD and STP this evening every relevant departure had "First class at the front" scrolling constantly. Simple.

In those instances, maybe... However...

Peterborough station, Saturday morning, 0813 Great Northern to King's Cross, pair of 387's.

Both the "automated Annie" station announcements and the platform departure screens advertised both visually and audibly "first class accomodation is at the front of the train".

First class accomodation was actually in coaches 4 and 8 (of 8).

The mind boggles.

 

[jon0844]

In those instances, maybe... However...

Peterborough station, Saturday morning, 0813 Great Northern to King's Cross, pair of 387's.

Both the "automated Annie" station announcements and the platform departure screens advertised both visually and audibly "first class accomodation is at the front of the train".

First class accomodation was actually in coaches 4 and 8 (of 8).

The mind boggles.

Most likely the service was meant to be run with a 700, as 387s don't have that announcement/message.

 

[Sleepy]

Greater Anglia 745's have stickers in every window saying "1st class" also guards always announces first class is coaches A & B. Yet on leaving Liverpool Street on every journey at least 1 passenger leaves the coach after tickets are checked, most of them must be trying their luck ??

 

[jon0844]

Greater Anglia 745's have stickers in every window saying "1st class" also guards always announces first class is coaches A & B. Yet on leaving Liverpool Street on every journey at least 1 passenger leaves the coach after tickets are checked, most of them must be trying their luck ??

Some people on here seem to think you can go in first and just wait to be asked to leave, and anything more than that is grossly unfair. I would assume that on any given train, there are people sharing the same view.

Very much the same people caught without a ticket who insist that the punishment should be being sold a ticket there and then, and a penalty fare or MG11 is also grossly unfair.

 

[Haywain]

Yet on leaving Liverpool Street on every journey at least 1 passenger leaves the coach after tickets are checked, most of them must be trying their luck ??

Even more surprising* is that I've seen this happen on leaving Norwich, where it takes quite an effort to reach the first class seats.


*Possibly not surprising really.

 

[bramling]

Yes but it’s also at the rear. It’s not that simple at all. That’s how many laypeople will view it.

But wouldn’t those laypeople then just avoid it and choose a seat in standard class?

Why does everything always have to be debased to cater for the most dumb people? It really isn’t that hard to understand, and if so then don’t sit there.

 

[AlterEgo]

But wouldn’t those laypeople then just avoid it and choose a seat in standard class?

Why would they, when they can sit in the better seats - all the time if they are familiar with the declassified routes - and not know any different? I mean those seats are supposed to be better, that's what first class is after all - except when it isn't. I have come across a couple of people who think Thameslink is declassified all the time.

Why does everything always have to be debased to cater for the most dumb people? It really isn’t that hard to understand, and if so then don’t sit there.

On the other hand, why does the railway have an allergy towards just making things intuitive and normal? Once things are that way, you can penalise people at will because they won't have an excuse. The railway has an insufferable capacity for bad optics and self-harm and makes its own bed as a house of nebulous and punitive rules.

Here's a great idea - make all the first class, first class, and enforce it - or do away with it. The middle ground serves nobody well; don't try to tell me Thameslink is unique and has some sort of super unusual customer base or business need.

 

[AM9]

TL doesn't need to change anything on the trains or their website. Just ignore this chancer and deprive whatever his mission is of oxygen. I rarely use 1st class these days as an extra 100m walk is often too uncomfortable. But, when I do, I always check for the message on the PIS before I settle.
The publicity of his penalty will probably reduce the likelihood of others attempting a try on.

 

[infobleep]

Not really sure what the fuss is about. If one is going to try and be clever and use a hack, make sure one has got it right.

Why is it a hack?

It's generous as it is that first class at the rear is declassified. If first class went, all the first class seats would be replaced with standard class seats and everybody loses.

Perhaps they should do that.

The reasonable assumption is to assume that *all* first class applies. If you try and take advantage of a hack, then take the trouble to actually understand it. The screens on the class 700s are quite clear, so it isn’t like the information is lacking. I’m no fan of GTR, but can’t fault them on this one.

The information on the screen appears every 3 minutes.

Indeed

Last time I was in declassified section a few weeks back 2 teenagers got on and spent much of their journey from east Croydon blagging to friends on their phone that they were sitting in first class without tickets and didn’t care because it was never checked.

Shame it wasn’t checked so the rest of us could see how they reacted when they were not asked to move!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==


I wouldn’t know as I never need to sit in the real standard class seats. lol

I even stand in the declassified first class section if all the seats are taken, just to highlight how silly it is to have so much first class declassified.

I take the fully-declassified Sutton loop trains very frequently, pretty much always sitting in the FC compartment, and I've never noticed a "this area is declassified' sign. It's very confusing.

It’s on the scrolling screen on the ceiling. Occasionally.

It appears on screen every 3 minutes is how I remember it.

It really isn’t fair though to expect passengers to catch that piece of scrolling text when it happens to come onscreen. Not everyone is a rail enthusiast and the reality is that your average passenger who only rides on fully declassified suburban services is going to assume the same applies whenever they ride a class 700.

In a society where people are kinder to each other, one might expect the guard to simply inform the passengers of their mistake and give them the chance to move before slapping them with a fine, but alas…

Let's not forget some suburban services are only declassified Monday to Saturdsy and not on Sundays.

I go to Real Time Trains to check. Not sure if the ational Rail Rnquiries live departure board states the class.

I mean if they want standard class to exist in first class areas, the information needs to be available or their isn't any point.

The area is clearly advertised as First Class.

There is no guard on these trains, there are random checks by teams of ticket inspectors.

In a society where concessions and discretion are offered, there will always be people who serially take liberties then protest when caught out and required to pay the fare. And these people can end up making things worse for others who are prepared to accept the concessions for what they are and abide by the terms. This guy has kicked off in the media, what I imagine most passengers don't want is for Thameslink to remove the rear compartment concession.

I’m sorry but I cannot agree with this assessment.

The compartment is clearly marked as 1st class and the default position is that you need a 1st class ticket to use the compartment, unless you are aware of the declassification policy.

The outcome of this is likely to be the re-classification on the rear compartment as 1st class so people should be careful what they wish for.

What if you are aware of the declassification policy on Sutton loop line and mistakenly think it applies on the line to Brighton?

I note in the statements I read from the spokesperson, they made no referencd to the Sutton loop. They could have used it as a bit of education. Opportunity missed?

If they want to make the back section first class then they are entitled to do that.

What I don't understand is why SouthEastern Railways abolished first class. Kent is a large county. Why do they not require first clsss but some routes used by Govia Thameslink Railway do?

In this case though, the passenger wasn’t confused in the slightest.

Passenger knowingly evades fare. Passenger gets a penalty. It really is as simple as that in this case.

Although he will get sympathy from the pro-fare evasion crowd on here!

I don't know if the person really was confused or actually fare evading. Personally when I get on a Thameslink train I will walk to the back to use the declassified first class secrion, even if all I do is stand in it. I do this to highlight how much declassified first class.

I personally don't think the first class is that great and wouldn't pay for it but I accept that is a totally different conversation.

I wonder if the person finned could have purchased a cheaper train ticket for the journey they were making.

That is what people should focus on ahen travellinf and not sitting in the wrong class.

I can't find any mention of this being the case.

Southern's site states this route is always declassified, and the timetable information reflects this too.

Here is an example for next Sunday of an Epsom Downs train containing first class for the 12:08 Epsom Downs to London Victoria

2B55 1208 Epsom Downs to London Victoria
Departing on 22nd December 2024
Southern

UID W38435, identity 2B55
TSC 24782000
SuO - 15/12/2024 to 11/05/2025
Ordinary Passenger
Great Britain (Network Rail, TPS)
Pathed as Electric multiple unit
Planned for 100mph max
Driver only operated
First & Standard class seatiwg

Realtime Trains | 2B55 1208 Epsom Downs to London Victoria | 22/12/2024

Real-time train running information for 2B55 1208 departure from Epsom Downs to London Victoria on 22/12/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Are you say the information Real Time Trains is getting is incorrect? I even asked about this situation previously in the Timetable fourm.

Trains from Dorking to Victoria have first class in their timetable on Sundays

Why do Southern branded trains from Dorking to Victoria via Sutton have first class in their timetable on Sundays? Is it just today (Sunday 30/07) is a temporary timetable. I have come across it before on a Sunday on the Epsom Downs line services. Monday to Saturday trains from Dorking only...

www.railforums.co.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Dec 2024 ==

The fact people are getting this wrong on a railway forum is really just evidence that it is a confusing and not especially ideal situation.

Who is getting it wrong though?

 

[jon0844]

I even stand in the declassified first class section if all the seats are taken, just to highlight how silly it is to have so much first class declassified.

Highlight to who?

I doubt anyone in there, or anywhere on the train, is noticing your statement and least of all cares.

I'd sooner sit in standard than stand in declassified first, as contrary to what people think on here, plenty of people know about the rear of a 700 being declassified such that on certain trains it's the first area to fill up.

 

[MrJeeves]

Here is an example for next Sunday of an Epsom Downs train containing first class for the 12:08 Epsom Downs to London Victoria

What the timetable says may not be a reflection of reality. I'd even propose you contact GTR to make them aware so they can remove it from the affected services. Their website is very clear about 1st class not being enforced between Epsom and London. You couldn't even buy a first class ticket between Epsom Downs and Victoria, except a Travelcard.

Are you say the information Real Time Trains is getting is incorrect?

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[PZ 08895]

This is what is displayed in the declassified first (I am sitting in one now) and it took 1 minute and 1 second between it being displayed and it being displayed again, but the period is longer when approaching or leaving a station. It is shown for 5 seconds.

 

[allbarbarry]

I feel the situation with Thameslink first class is another example of the railway making things a lot more convoluted than they need to be.

What difference does the direction of travel of the train even make to the product on offer? It is the exact same compartment with the exact same seats, layout and service.

It isn’t even any quieter in the ‘real’ first class, in situations when it would otherwise be worth paying for. On peak services through the core it is often filled to capacity and with passengers standing.

Why is the first class placed at both ends of the train anyway? If the procurement of the Class 700s gave serious consideration to first class, surely they’d take both the half carriages at either end and combine into a full first class carriage at the front/rear?

Perhaps the idea is that outside the core where it is less busy, passengers can use the declassified first for its somewhat more comfortable seating. This however would bring into question the suitability of the Class 700s for its longer distance routes, given the terrible quality of the standard class seating…

 

[WesternLancer]

This thread is going round and round somewhat now.

The points made in the first posts will soon appear at the rear of the thread

 

[Wolfie]

This thread is going round and round somewhat now.

The points made in the first posts will soon appear at the rear of the thread

Yup. Some people feel like the status quo is misleading and unfair. Others, particularly those who take advantage of it, don't. Really nothing else to say now.