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Or instead of waiting for this long process of the PIS screen cycling round, you could spend 20 seconds googling it. You don't even have to leave the Google results page to find the answer
This is why (a) AI is near-useless when wanting to verify facts, and (b) why you SHOULD leave the Google search page to look at the source and verify its veracity.
Thameslink's first class declassification policy is on their website though and isn't hard to find. And the default should be assuming it is first class.
Clearly the simplest solution is to do away with First Class and replace the seats with those found in Standard class when the trains get their first refresh.
That way, nobody gets confused with the policy of which end is declassified.
I have no idea what a backflip has got to do with this but if you are making the point that not everything on Google is correct or that by relying on info from search results could lead to misinformation then you have 2 ways of verifying it in the example I gave (which is actually relevant to this discussion unlike a backflip). 1) check the website link to ensure it is from a valid source - the screenshot I attached to my previous post clearly shows that the information I have sourced is from the Thameslink website or 2) click on said link and check the info on the website.
It all equates to the same thing with regards to the point I was making which is that the information regarding declassified first class on Thameslink is readily available within seconds. It is also correct information so I am not sure of your final point about it being wrong and now being prosecuted!
This is why (a) AI is near-useless when wanting to verify facts, and (b) why you SHOULD leave the Google search page to look at the source and verify its veracity.
Thameslink's first class declassification policy is on their website though and isn't hard to find. And the default should be assuming it is first class.
Why SHOULD you leave the Google search page when the information you have found has a valid and verified website link attached to it. As I have said above, you can clearly see in my screenshot that the information provided is taken from the Thameslink website as it there is a weblink at the bottom.
Clearly the simplest solution is to do away with First Class and replace the seats with those found in Standard class when the trains get their first refresh.
That way, nobody gets confused with the policy of which end is declassified.
I agree, especially with Thameslink. It just feels so pointless having 1st class at all. If first class is to remain though, the other option is to put a blanket ban on declassifying first class so again nobody can ever become confused about where they should be sat.
Clearly the simplest solution is to do away with First Class and replace the seats with those found in Standard class when the trains get their first refresh.
Hence, why I said when the units get their first refresh. Although in the case of LNR, the former first class areas are pretty much the same* as standard class in terms of having tables & plug sockets. The only different is having worse seats (*excluding the 350/2 units which are going). It's not a like for like comparison with the Thameslink units which don't have sockets and only some of the units have seat back tables.
When taking a Thameslink train at rush hour, it is often completely full including standing. Is it permissible to stand in the first class areas in these situations, and if not, what should a passenger do?
Which is why they tend towards queuing and crowd control for that. But if 11.4/12 coaches crush loaded isn't enough there's not much more the railway can do - class 700s are probably the highest capacity trains anywhere on the network.
When taking a Thameslink train at rush hour, it is often completely full including standing. Is it permissible to stand in the first class areas in these situations, and if not, what should a passenger do?
I've still yet to see first class declassified on Thameslink bar strike days. Although of course there is an argument of first class being de-facto declassified if it is physically impossible for an inspector to get to the compartment. That could apply equally to many commuter services.
When taking a Thameslink train at rush hour, it is often completely full including standing. Is it permissible to stand in the first class areas in these situations, and if not, what should a passenger do?
I've still yet to see first class declassified on Thameslink bar strike days. Although of course there is an argument of first class being de-facto declassified if it is physically impossible for an inspector to get to the compartment. That could apply equally to many commuter services.
Clearly the simplest solution is to do away with First Class and replace the seats with those found in Standard class when the trains get their first refresh.
Even easier - to support the SDO system, the class 700s already have support to make announcements in certain coaches only. Just have a regular announcement in the front coach that "the First Class compartment in this carriage is for the use of passengers holding First Class tickets only".
Almost zero cost, could be done almost overnight and would rule out most of the "I didn't realise" chancers. Though I suppose there would still be people claiming that they didn't hear the announcements because they were wearing headphones...
Even easier - to support the SDO system, the class 700s already have support to make announcements in certain coaches only. Just have a regular announcement in the front coach that "the First Class compartment in this carriage is for the use of passengers holding First Class tickets only".
Almost zero cost, could be done almost overnight and would rule out most of the "I didn't realise" chancers. Though I suppose there would still be people claiming that they didn't hear the announcements because they were wearing headphones...
The 'I didn't realise' chancers likely don't exist. People think that on a DOO train they'll get away with it, and at best be asked to move, at worst be asked to upgrade.
If they get a PF they'll kick off and say they didn't know it was first class, or start with the 'there were no seats in standard' or 'why should I pay more when there's no big upgrade over standard' etc. They might even go the media to try and get sympathy, especially from others that share the same mindset and don't see why they should pay.
I would expect that someone who genuinely didn't know would react in a different way to someone trying it on, as I'm sure most people are doing every single day. On 387s you'll see first class being used as normal on late night services. I have zero way of knowing what ticket they have (or if they have one) but I'm thinking it's rather unlikely that people at night are paying more first class to try and get a seat - when during the day, when you might have more reason to go first, the compartments are near empty.
Playing messages telling people about first class could work, but it's just as likely going to annoy those who would rather not hear superfluous messages on their trip.
Even easier - to support the SDO system, the class 700s already have support to make announcements in certain coaches only. Just have a regular announcement in the front coach that "the First Class compartment in this carriage is for the use of passengers holding First Class tickets only".
Almost zero cost, could be done almost overnight and would rule out most of the "I didn't realise" chancers. Though I suppose there would still be people claiming that they didn't hear the announcements because they were wearing headphones...
The PIS screen in the front 1st compartment already says you need a 1st class ticket to use it as part of its message rotation. Adding an audio message, however well intentioned, is highly unlikely to result in more people being made aware of the position.
I was in Thameslink 1st today and it couldn't really be more obvious that it's a 1st class area. But of course the same would apply to the rear compartment that is declassified.
I do think two things can be true - this guy is clearly a chancer but the policy of having a first class section that is always declassified and another that sometimes is declassified is just daft.
I was in Thameslink 1st today and it couldn't really be more obvious that it's a 1st class area. But of course the same would apply to the rear compartment that is declassified.
I do think two things can be true - this guy is clearly a chancer but the policy of having a first class section that is always declassified and another that sometimes is declassified is just daft.
Exactly my thoughts. Yes, first class is clearly marked but the majority of the time it is actually declassified, so people have to disregard those clear markings!
The declassification notices are only occasionally shown so it would be easy to miss them and the rules for declassification are not at all obvious.
Of course, people will say that if you are playing it safe, you should avoid first class if you're unsure whether it's declassified. But that misses the point that someone may regularly travel on routes where first class is always declassified (e.g. the Sutton or Rainham services) and thus be caught out by the policy being different on other routes - despite almost all indications being that they would count as the same.
Sure, the platform displays list which services have first class, and it's shown in the timetable. But are we really saying that the average person looks at these?
I think Thameslink needs to have a consistent policy across all routes as a minimum, and should have first class at a fixed end of the train (either the south or north end) with the other end being permanently declassified by removing the signs/antimacassars etc.
When the railway has a clear and unambiguous policy it makes it much easier to say that anyone still occupying first class is likely to be chancing it. At the moment, there is a considerable degree of ambiguity which makes the railway's position hard to morally defend.
I was in Thameslink 1st today and it couldn't really be more obvious that it's a 1st class area. But of course the same would apply to the rear compartment that is declassified.
I do think two things can be true - this guy is clearly a chancer but the policy of having a first class section that is always declassified and another that sometimes is declassified is just daft.
If GTR/the DfT can see a market in selling first class tickets to people travelling from the suburbs into London then they're not likely to want to get rid of first class entirely, so the only other outcome would be to make first class be so at both ends, at all times. I don't think anyone wants that.
For as long as I've commuted, I've enjoyed using first class on trains that didn't operate first class - which goes back to the FCC days and possibly even Wagn. Most people in the know were quite happy that most people weren't in the know. Look back on threads where people had to carry letters to confirm that they could sit in first class on specific services, as some revenue staff were unaware.
I would actually quite like to still be able to enjoy this, not just on GTR but any train operator. I fear this person is not going to get the outcome that he, or anyone else, wants. It's unlikely it will lead to first class being scrapped entirely - at least not until the transition to GB Rail is completed, and even then if it has a business case then surely it will remain.
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Of course, people will say that if you are playing it safe, you should avoid first class if you're unsure whether it's declassified. But that misses the point that someone may regularly travel on routes where first class is always declassified (e.g. the Sutton or Rainham services) and thus be caught out by the policy being different on other routes - despite almost all indications being that they would count as the same.
Sure, the platform displays list which services have first class, and it's shown in the timetable. But are we really saying that the average person looks at these?
I think Thameslink needs to have a consistent policy across all routes as a minimum, and should have first class at a fixed end of the train (either the south or north end) with the other end being permanently declassified by removing the signs/antimacassars etc.
When the railway has a clear and unambiguous policy it makes it much easier to say that anyone still occupying first class is likely to be chancing it. At the moment, there is a considerable degree of ambiguity which makes the railway's position hard to morally defend.
Anyone that doesn't know better won't be in first class, simple as.
Nobody needs to know if first class is declassified. Knowing is a bonus, and there are multiple ways to find out, but it isn't essential. The only people I can see with a valid concern is someone who paid for first class and ended up in a place that wasn't actually first class. And that's a totally different (reversed) scenario where a penalty fare wouldn't apply for someone with a first class ticket effectively in standard.
And the current system of having first class advertised at the front of the train works fine as it's easy to tell which way a train is going. People both know which is always declassified and which is (or might be) first. As said above, the only issue is someone paying for first class when there might not be first class at all - but that's not a recent issue, it's existed for literally decades.
While Thameslink doesn't yet have individual route names like London Overground now does (another topic of debate perhaps), the ones that are fully declassified are specific routes/services so there IS consistency. Again, for those who know, it's easy. Anyone that doesn't know, or care to know, just sits in standard.
I'd love to know who actually wants everyone to know they can sit in first class, thus making it packed out at all times, and making you have to move to standard. There's nothing to say you can't broadcast it to the world, but why would you?
Just stood on the Platform at St Pancras, Sutton train in the platform and the automatically PA announces 'There is no first class accommodation on this train'. Which is incorrect, as there is first class accommodation on the train, it's just declassified.
It ought to announce 'Standard class ticket holders may sit in first class on this train'.
The whole system is confused, so no wonder the passengers are.
Just stood on the Platform at St Pancras, Sutton train in the platform and the automatically PA announces 'There is no first class accommodation on this train'. Which is incorrect, as there is first class accommodation on the train, it's just declassified.
It ought to announce 'Standard class ticket holders may sit in first class on this train'.
The whole system is confused, so no wonder the passengers are.
I am surprised i had seen a news story on this previously.
Look at the service from London Victoria to Epsom Downs and also the service to Horsham via Sutton.
They are declassified Mondays to Saturdays only and classified on Sundays.
I can see how it might confuse someone. I dont know how many standard class passengers sit in first class on Sundays. Perhaps they need some RPIs working the services on Sundays.
I often use to see people in stood first class between East Croydon and Clapham Junction. If I was on a busy train and I some how ended uo in the first class section, I would make a point of ensuring I wasn't, no matter how busy the train was.
Never saw anything done about this though.
Are there any Sutton loop trains that have first class any more? A number of years ago there was 4 such services in the timetable. I can't remember if they announced over the station tanoys about them being fully declassified like they did for the ones that were.
They may as well remove first class from all the eight-car sets, as there's only the odd eight-car working on the mainline where first class is required
They may as well remove first class from all the eight-car sets, as there's only the odd eight-car working on the mainline where first class is required
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