Issues with Stadler flirt trains

[Trainbike46]

It's probably also worth separating the as-Stadler-designed-it FLIRT (e.g. the Greater Anglia and Welsh ones, where the customer has really just specified the colour of the paint and moquette) and the as-Merseyrail-designed-it one, which has a LOT more design flaws in my view.

the merseyrail unit isn't a FLIRT, it's part of the METRO family

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

the GA units where a massive improvement over what came before - whereas the Merseyrail units are, in my view, still an improvement over what came before (they offer level-boarding, for one), the difference isn't as big as at GA

 

[Bletchleyite]

the merseyrail unit isn't a FLIRT, it's part of the METRO family

It's a bit of both - specifically, they appear to have used FLIRT body panels for it. You can see how different the normal METRO ones are by looking at the visually very different Class 555 and Berlin units.

In the end Stadler offer a highly modular single-deck product from a common set of modular components which started out from constructing custom short-run products for Swiss narrow gauge lines, so which brand it comes under is relatively moot.

the GA units where a massive improvement over what came before - whereas the Merseyrail units are, in my view, still an improvement over what came before (they offer level-boarding, for one), the difference isn't as big as at GA

My personal take is that overall they are neither better nor worse overall (the 50x weren't particularly good units either, though they were at least reliable), though they're better and worse in different ways. However, they really haven't got anywhere near their potential due to a raft of absolutely terrible design decisions, from the seating to the PIS to the door layout etc. Unfortunately the views of one person (who did post here for a bit) based on a flawed survey appear to have been allowed to stick, and while some issues raised on the mock-up were resolved they were resolved badly*, presumably because contracts had been signed too early to do a major variation (such as to use an entirely different seat as TfW did with their units following poor feedback on the original one).

* One I raised personally was the protrusion of the headrests, which was "resolved" by making the back cushion a centimetre or two thicker at the top, creating a very unnatural back curve when seated. Metrolink trams appear to use a very similar seat but with no headrest and a different cushion, and it's a lot better.

 

[RailWonderer]

It's probably also worth separating the as-Stadler-designed-it FLIRT (e.g. the Greater Anglia and Welsh ones, where the customer has really just specified the colour of the paint and moquette) and the as-Merseyrail-designed-it one, which has a LOT more design flaws in my view.

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

You're lucky you never had to put up with the 90+mk3 and the 321s that came previously, both the two worst types of train for seat height, pitch and legroom and poor window alignment in the country (apart from Pacers and some Sprinters). The 321s had that howling with rattling doors and panels that made such loud knocks and bangs you thought the whole carriage would blow open at 100mph. Then trying to step in and out of the seats of those old mark 3s meant doing acrobatics.

The 720s are heaven in comparison (thankfully they don't ever run to Norwich). For the 777s, they only do short distance work whereas GA's old stock ran on the London to Norwich which is 1h 40 to 1h 50 end to end which makes the Stadlers light years ahead of what came before.

 

[RacsoMoquette]

I think the Stadler FLIRTS are exemplary trains in every respect, and other companies such as CAF could easily improve their products significantly, if they just looked at Stadler getting things right! I wonder why Stadler products don’t crack or leak soon after introduction? akin to CAFs Metro units in Madrid recently and all endless list of tram recalls due to metal fatigue!

Also it will be very interesting how the performance of the Tyne & Wear Class 555 compares to the DLR B23? As they seem quite comparable, both built to a similar internal and external design for Metro operations and carrying out similar service demands on two UK light rail systems. Let’s hope the B23s do not start cracking next year! Also let’s hope the Class 555s software doesn’t prove to challenging akin to the similar Merseyrail Class 777! Though they are slowly settling down!

 

[Busman]

First of all, don’t use capitals, it’s shouting!

Door buttons on toilet all clearly indicated no issue.

Raised seats - people can fall at any point on train, I’ve travelled these hundreds of times and seen no issue (probably no more accidents on these than other trains). This issues with raised areas are, these are the first type of train in uk to have raised floor, however first time I used raised area, I remembered I had stepped up, so knew I had to step down!

Disabled area space to me seems very similar to other types of train, and they have level boarding and easy access to toilets - to me no issues.

Sorry but using capitals is perfectly reasonable to show someone's anger/frustration.

 

[800001]

Sorry but using capitals is perfectly reasonable to show someone's anger/frustration.

In digital communication, writing in all caps is similar to shouting, and can be interpreted as such!

And that’s what I have been told all through my career, never use capitals, as it is classes as shouting and aggressive!

 

[DanNCL]

It's a bit of both - specifically, they appear to have used FLIRT body panels for it. You can see how different the normal METRO ones are by looking at the visually very different Class 555 and Berlin units.

In the end Stadler offer a highly modular single-deck product from a common set of modular components which started out from constructing custom short-run products for Swiss narrow gauge lines, so which brand it comes under is relatively moot.

The bodysides of the 555s are based off the existing Tyne & Wear fleet. The default Stadler METRO bodyside design is that used in Berlin.

For similarity, the 555s have more in common with the Berlin units than they do the 777s.

I think the Stadler FLIRTS are exemplary trains in every respect, and other companies such as CAF could easily improve their products significantly, if they just looked at Stadler getting things right! I wonder why Stadler products don’t crack or leak soon after introduction? akin to CAFs Metro units in Madrid recently and all endless list of tram recalls due to metal fatigue!

Also it will be very interesting how the performance of the Tyne & Wear Class 555 compares to the DLR B23? As they seem quite comparable, both built to a similar internal and external design for Metro operations and carrying out similar service demands on two UK light rail systems. Let’s hope the B23s do not start cracking next year! Also let’s hope the Class 555s software doesn’t prove to challenging akin to the similar Merseyrail Class 777! Though they are slowly settling down!

The 555s are considerably more advanced in testing than the B23s, despite the first B23 arriving before the first 555, and despite there being (now resolved) issues with the 555s.
555s have been out on mileage accumulation mixed in with the regular service almost daily for 4 months now. The B23s are still only permitted outside of Beckton depot during possessions.

Regarding software,the 555s have completely different software from the 777s. And it helps massively that the 555s will operate DOO as designed rather than with a guard using retrofitted controls that the software wasn’t designed for.

 

[TRAX]

It's a bit of both - specifically, they appear to have used FLIRT body panels for it. You can see how different the normal METRO ones are by looking at the visually very different Class 555 and Berlin units.

That’s because METRO isn’t a true platform as the FLIRT is (hence the more or less generic brand name).
All Stadler metros come under the METRO brand name, even if they have nothing in common (see the different Stadler METRO trains used around the world).

 

[Horizon22]

Yes narrow aisles caused by the 3/2 seating is not very good.

They are really cramped, even for 3+2 seating. 455, 465s and 165/166s don't feel that tight down the aisle as a comparison.

 

[Alfie1014]

To be fair, I'd have to get a bus in Clacton to get to my final destination (visiting family) and the bus from Colchester to Clacton goes there anyway so yeah I'd still change to the bus.

Also, advance tickets to Colchester are usually considerably cheaper than to Clacton too.

I find the 720s too cramped and the lack of arm rests makes for an unpleasant journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==



Cramped, lack of arm rests and the aisle down the centre is far too narrow, if you wear a backpack, you have to take it off or you get stuck!

Just making them 2+2 would make a massive difference IMO, the 730s WMT are introducing on the Cross City is what the 720s should have been.

Whilst no means the worst new trains the 720s do have a poor interior layout , especially so in the post COVID world. The gap between the seats of only 400mm is less than the specified 450mm in PRM TSI but no one seems to be able to confirm whether this means they are compliant or not? The Renatus 321s are 450mm for example.

This can mean that luggage, buggies and bikes frequently are left in doorways.

On the plus side as a weekly or more frequent user there are some positives, acceleration is better than pretty much everything that proceeded them and in use today except possibly the 755s. The ride quality is variable with what I regard as a typically ‘Germanic’ rattle and judder at speed. They are much quieter than their predecessors, though the downside of this is that sound travels further internally! After some teething problems the air con in the summer and heating in the winter seems now to work effectively. Build quality especially of the earlier units can be variable, some leak in heavy rain and one recently built unit I was on earlier this week you could feel the floor flexing every time someone walked by!

All in all whilst not in love with them they are just about an acceptable medium distance UK train.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Whilst no means the worst new trains the 720s do have a poor interior layout , especially so in the post COVID world. The gap between the seats of only 400mm is less than the specified 450mm in PRM TSI but no one seems to be able to confirm whether this means they are compliant or not? The Renatus 321s are 450mm for example.

This can mean that luggage, buggies and bikes frequently are left in doorways.

On the plus side as a weekly or more frequent user there are some positives, acceleration is better than pretty much everything that proceeded them and in use today except possibly the 755s. The ride quality is variable with what I regard as a typically ‘Germanic’ rattle and judder at speed. They are much quieter than their predecessors, though the downside of this is that sound travels further internally! After some teething problems the air con in the summer and heating in the winter seems now to work effectively. Build quality especially of the earlier units can be variable, some leak in heavy rain and one recently built unit I was on earlier this week you could feel the floor flexing every time someone walked by!

All in all whilst not in love with them they are just about an acceptable medium distance UK train.

755 acceleration is way better

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

The ride quality is appalling. They feel like a very cheap product to me - that may just be Bombardier’s standards though.

Way better than 387s. I don't find it too bad

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Sep 2024 ==

It's probably also worth separating the as-Stadler-designed-it FLIRT (e.g. the Greater Anglia and Welsh ones, where the customer has really just specified the colour of the paint and moquette) and the as-Merseyrail-designed-it one, which has a LOT more design flaws in my view.

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

The 720s work very well for their purpose. I've been on quite a few full and standing 720s where all the extra seats make it comfortable. They're decently reliable, the acceleration is pretty good and they're a really good people soaker (for 10 car). The ride quality is also decent (although is not as good as the 755 or 700)

 

[boiledbeans2]

That being said, I was on a 755 earlier (on the London diagram, FWIW) which had a cracked luggage rack above my table. Given the location of said crack, I'd be very surprised if it wasn't a head that did that. I've seen a few people stand up and hit their heads on IETs too.

Might want to read this thread:

I Broke My Head on Great Anglia Train

Greetings, My name is Vilmos, I am from Hungary and I need legal advice against British train company Great Anglia for personal injury claim. On Thursday 23 May 2024, I arrive at Stansted Airport from Budapest, I ride on the Great Anglia express train to London Liverpool Street. On approach...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[185143]

Might want to read this thread:

I Broke My Head on Great Anglia Train

Greetings, My name is Vilmos, I am from Hungary and I need legal advice against British train company Great Anglia for personal injury claim. On Thursday 23 May 2024, I arrive at Stansted Airport from Budapest, I ride on the Great Anglia express train to London Liverpool Street. On approach...

www.railforums.co.uk

I had that thread in mind at the time.

I've seen several people hit the luggage racks on IETs too, so it's not just a Stadler issue. My mate did it at Paddington after we'd come back from Exeter, what made it even funnier (for me!) was that we'd been talking about that very think during the journey.

 

[swaldman]

My only real issue with the Anglia FLIRTs - and I've only been on them once - is that for long-distance stock, they are surprisingly noisy at speed. I've only been on the bi-modes, I don't know if the pure electrics are better, but for something that one can be on for a couple of hours it sounded like an outer-surburban thing from the 80s. Other than that, lovely trains I thought.

 

[dk1]

My only real issue with the Anglia FLIRTs - and I've only been on them once - is that for long-distance stock, they are surprisingly noisy at speed. I've only been on the bi-modes, I don't know if the pure electrics are better, but for something that one can be on for a couple of hours it sounded like an outer-surburban thing from the 80s. Other than that, lovely trains I thought.

You surprise me as they are so quiet. Where you in diesel mode and where the interior doors next to the power pack open? When these are closed you’ll hear very little apart from accelerating if you sat next to it and next to nothing in the leading/rear vehicles.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

You surprise me as they are so quiet. Where you in diesel mode and where the interior doors next to the power pack open? When these are closed you’ll hear very little apart from accelerating if you sat next to it and next to nothing in the leading/rear vehicles.

I always sit at the front. When the train is pretty much empty the traction motors sound so good when accelerating. It seems like most of the time the power pack doors are left open for some reason. It can get pretty noisy when accelerating on diesel if you sit near there

 

[Haywain]

It seems like most of the time the power pack doors are left open for some reason.

I don't think I have ever experienced that.

 

[dk1]

I always sit at the front. When the train is pretty much empty the traction motors sound so good when accelerating. It seems like most of the time the power pack doors are left open for some reason. It can get pretty noisy when accelerating on diesel if you sit near there

Power pack doors are normally closed I would say 80-90% of the time. For some reason a few 755s are set to ‘open’ for these and unless the driver notices on the TMS will remain so. As a regular passenger too this is something I note immediately and close them. Nobody apart from the odd crank wants to listen to that.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

Power pack doors are normally closed I would say 80-90% of the time. For some reason a few 755s are set to ‘open’ for these and unless the driver notices on the TMS will remain so. As a regular passenger too this is something I note immediately and close them. Nobody apart from the odd crank wants to listen to that.

A few months ago the majority I went on were open but recently pretty much none are

 

[Russel]

Nobody apart from the odd crank wants to listen to that.

I can see a money making opportunity for GA here...

Stick a flip down seat in there and charge enthusiasts a supplement!

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I can see a money making opportunity for GA here...

Stick a flip down seat in there and charge enthusiasts a supplement!

It'd block everyone

 

[Russel]

It'd block everyone

I wasn't being serious.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Power pack doors are normally closed I would say 80-90% of the time. For some reason a few 755s are set to ‘open’ for these and unless the driver notices on the TMS will remain so. As a regular passenger too this is something I note immediately and close them. Nobody apart from the odd crank wants to listen to that.

I always found the. 158s much more pleasant when accelerating than the whining of the electric traction motors, I generally travel on the 745s though.

The only issues I see are the specs are specific for their application and not ideal when swapped around

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I wasn't being serious.

Yeah obviously

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

I always found the. 158s much more pleasant when accelerating than the whining of the electric traction motors, I generally travel on the 745s though.

The only issues I see are the specs are specific for their application and not ideal when swapped around

I love the sound of electric traction motors, especially on 755s

 

[Harpo]

Re: Power pack doors - I’ve not been on a 755 for a while. Isn’t there also some signage that says you can’t stand in the area between them?

 

[dk1]

Re: Power pack doors - I’ve not been on a 755 for a while. Isn’t there also some signage that says you can’t stand in the area between them?

There might be but nobody has to pay any attention to it.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

There might be but nobody has to pay any attention to it.

I've never seen anyone stand in there, even when it's full and standing. I don't know why anyone would want to

 

[dk1]

I've never seen anyone stand in there, even when it's full and standing. I don't know why anyone would want to

Oh I have through the internal CCTV once I’m stationary. No accounting for taste

 

[swaldman]

The noise I remember remarking on to myself wasn't engine or motor noise, it was general wind / wheel / environment noise - the sort of thing you'd expect to hear in a more traditional train if the vestibule door was stuck open.

 

[occone]

Re: Power pack doors - I’ve not been on a 755 for a while. Isn’t there also some signage that says you can’t stand in the area between them?

There is!

I was thinking about what risks there may be when passing through one recently; the obvious one is preventing passage of people through the train given how narrow it is.

I also wondered about high noise levels in the power pack - it's not deafening but there is a scale that dictates how safe certain decibel levels are - and some decibel levels are only safe for a minute or so.

I figured carbon monoxide poisoning was absolutely engineered out.

That all said, I see the FLIRTs as top of class rolling stock. The 745s and 755s are a joy to travel on.