Issues with Stadler flirt trains

[Bletchleyite]

I've not seen it, tbh. Because the carriages are quite short it's not that far to the doors in the next carriage if you're sat in the 4-bay at the driving carriage inner end.

I've seen it at Central where it's made worse by the door being adjacent to a very narrow part of the platform. Really would help if they would change the stopping positions for 4 car sets to be at the other end where the platform is more open from obstructions, particularly now that stupidly located additional lift has taken a load more of that valuable space up, making the situation even worse.

It might be that passengers are now learning to work around it, but it is yet another aspect of the absolutely woeful design of these awful units.

 

[MarkyT]

I expect the level, gapless boarding makes the whole entrance and egress process swifter and more efficient, avoiding the extended time some take when there's difficulty stepping or lifting. There's also far lower likelyhood of minor trip and fall incidents. You're less likely to want to look for an alternative door if the nearest one clears quickly. Fewer mechanisms reduces complexity and should help reliability, perhaps offsetting the additional complexity of the gap fillers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The passenger accommodation in a 3 car 755 is only 18+16+18m long, a total of 52m, or roughly the length of a two car 26m unit. The Stadler has 6 door leaves, the 26m end doored unit would have only four.

That both leaves are together is really not relevant - it's the amount of egress per unit length.

Another thing to consider is where the doors actually are. With end doors (regardless of how many leaves) and narrow car-to-car gangway bellows, most people boarding will only turn towards the interior of that vehicle- particularly if it's busy. Anyone turning the other way to enter the next coach will clash with people boarding at the adjacent door before they get to the seating area. With doors at thirds or quarters (and/or with wider gangways) it's easy to see into the saloons at either side.

I've seen a few rather superficial criticisms of Flirts recently on here, and I suspect some are going out of their way to find fault with them. There's always going to be some compromise with any design.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen a few rather superficial criticisms of Flirts recently on here, and I suspect some are going out of their way to find fault with them. There's always going to be some compromise with any design.

It's probably also worth separating the as-Stadler-designed-it FLIRT (e.g. the Greater Anglia and Welsh ones, where the customer has really just specified the colour of the paint and moquette) and the as-Merseyrail-designed-it one, which has a LOT more design flaws in my view.

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

 

[Russel]

StanEx is probably the oddity, personally I'd refit them all to the IC interior so all Norwich services are FLIRTs and use 720s on that.

This is exactly what should happen.

It's a shame there isn't enough FLIRTS to use on the Clacton service too, as someone who uses the route a few times a year, I have to say the 720s aren't a nice way to travel, generally now I'll get a Norwich service to Colchester and get the bus the rest of the way!

 

[185143]

This is exactly what should happen.

It's a shame there isn't enough FLIRTS to use on the Clacton service too, as someone who uses the route a few times a year, I have to say the 720s aren't a nice way to travel, generally now I'll get a Norwich service to Colchester and get the bus the rest of the way!

That's quite a statement, that they're that bad someone would rather change off them and get on a bus! Though I don't disagree with you really.

Out of interest, will you still do so if/when the £2 bus fares end?

I was having a conversation with a GA guard last night on a 745 about how bad the 720s are. I said it's quite something that GA have managed to order (arguably) the best new trains for quite some time and (far less arguably) the worst! We were both very grateful they don't do Norwich.

 

[800001]

That's quite a statement, that they're that bad someone would rather change off them and get on a bus! Though I don't disagree with you really.

Out of interest, will you still do so if/when the £2 bus fares end?

I was having a conversation with a GA guard last night on a 745 about how bad the 720s are. I said it's quite something that GA have managed to order (arguably) the best new trains for quite some time and (far less arguably) the worst! We were both very grateful they don't do Norwich.

Apart from the 3/2 seating, what is the issue that people dislike 720s?

 

[Russel]

That's quite a statement, that they're that bad someone would rather change off them and get on a bus! Though I don't disagree with you really.

Out of interest, will you still do so if/when the £2 bus fares end?

To be fair, I'd have to get a bus in Clacton to get to my final destination (visiting family) and the bus from Colchester to Clacton goes there anyway so yeah I'd still change to the bus.

Also, advance tickets to Colchester are usually considerably cheaper than to Clacton too.

I find the 720s too cramped and the lack of arm rests makes for an unpleasant journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==

Apart from the 3/2 seating, what is the issue that people dislike 720s?

Cramped, lack of arm rests and the aisle down the centre is far too narrow, if you wear a backpack, you have to take it off or you get stuck!

Just making them 2+2 would make a massive difference IMO, the 730s WMT are introducing on the Cross City is what the 720s should have been.

 

[800001]

To be fair, I'd have to get a bus in Clacton to get to my final destination (visiting family) and the bus from Colchester to Clacton goes there anyway so yeah I'd still change to the bus.

Also, advance tickets to Colchester are usually considerably cheaper than to Clacton too.

I find the 720s too cramped and the lack of arm rests makes for an unpleasant journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Sep 2024 ==



Cramped, lack of arm rests and the aisle down the centre is far too narrow, if you wear a backpack, you have to take it off or you get stuck!

Just making them 2+2 would make a massive difference IMO, the 730s WMT are introducing on the Cross City is what the 720s should have been.

Yes narrow aisles caused by the 3/2 seating is not very good.

 

[Russel]

Yes narrow aisles caused by the 3/2 seating is not very good.

Personally I find them even worse than the 350/2s, but at least they are being replaced at some point during the next decade...

 

[43096]

Apart from the 3/2 seating, what is the issue that people dislike 720s?

The ride quality is appalling. They feel like a very cheap product to me - that may just be Bombardier’s standards though.

 

[800001]

The ride quality is appalling. They feel like a very cheap product to me - that may just be Bombardier’s standards though.

Ride has always been ok when ever I’m on them, and I’ve rode them Liverpool Street to Ipswich several times.

 

[bspahh]

Yes narrow aisles caused by the 3/2 seating is not very good.

Just moving the handles on the side of the seats onto the top would widen the gap by a couple of inches.

 

[43096]

Ride has always been ok when ever I’m on them, and I’ve rode them Liverpool Street to Ipswich several times.

I've done them Liverpool Street to Stansted and the ride was appalling. It was a very hard ride, almost as if it had no/little suspension.

I'm not sure someone who has an IET as their username is necessarily going to be a good judge of ride quality...

 

[CBlue]

Yes. People quickly forget the horrendous rolling stock that the 755's replaced. Probably in both 745 and 755 versions, they are still the best new rolling stock in use on the UK network.

I've seen a few rather superficial criticisms of Flirts recently on here, and I suspect some are going out of their way to find fault with them. There's always going to be some compromise with any design.

Reading some of the other posts on the forums complaining about the FLIRT's - I think most of it can be simply considered wibble over the replacement of loco hauled stock and "plastic trains".


As a semi-regular user of them, I couldn't be happier. I'd go so far as to say that I would happy travel on a 745 on a several hour journey without issue,

Ride has always been ok when ever I’m on them, and I’ve rode them Liverpool Street to Ipswich several times.

I wasn't completely impressed by the 720s' ride. They're okay but felt "jittery" on some sections of the Cambridge- Liv St line in a way the 317s never did - although given how tired the 317s were, they were a minor improvement as a replacement if nothing else.

 

[185143]

The ride quality is appalling. They feel like a very cheap product to me - that may just be Bombardier’s standards though.

To be fair, as much as I agree they feel cheap, I've never found the ride quality to be too bad. And I've done Clacton-London amongst a couple of other longer journeys on them.

Maybe I'm just too used to the god awful CAF stuff up North!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ride quality is appalling. They feel like a very cheap product to me - that may just be Bombardier’s standards though.

I find the 730s on the WCML ride slightly better than the 350s. I'm quite looking forward to the 730/2 to be honest, I think it'll be a really quite good EMU.

The lack of level boarding is a shame, though, the publicity of Greater Anglia going fully accessible would have been quite something.

 

[sh24]

Like others, I'd suggest the FLIRTs are the best new train on the UK network. Not perfect but a big improvement on what went before.

The 720's would be fine IF they were 2-2. 3-2 is unpleasant.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's probably also worth separating the as-Stadler-designed-it FLIRT (e.g. the Greater Anglia and Welsh ones, where the customer has really just specified the colour of the paint and moquette) and the as-Merseyrail-designed-it one, which has a LOT more design flaws in my view.

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

The 777s aren't FLIRTs though.

 

[800001]

The 777s aren't FLIRTs though.

But a 777 is a stadler built train, and the poster is commenting on the order/design compared to a Stadler Flirt!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But a 777 is a stadler built train, and the poster is commenting on the order/design compared to a Stadler Flirt!

They didn't actually specify that, and posted in response to a comment that was about the FLIRT family of trains.

Class 68s and the Sheffield Tram-trains are built by Stadler too, but they're similarly not relevant to the qualities/deficiencies of the FLIRTs.

 

[Russel]

What I find strange, regarding the 720s is that despite sharing common flaws with the 360s they replaced, 3+2 seating, no arm rests etc, the 360s felt like a much nicer train.

 

[800001]

I've done them Liverpool Street to Stansted and the ride was appalling. It was a very hard ride, almost as if it had no/little suspension.

I'm not sure someone who has an IET as their username is necessarily going to be a good judge of ride quality...

When you start to criticise people individually that’s where I’ll end any discussion with you!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 777s aren't FLIRTs though.

That's a bit of a technicality. They are indeed METRO units, but the same modular concept applies as for all of Stadler's single deck products (the double deck units don't appear to be as customisable) so the same principles apply. Indeed they customise the METRO platform so much that it looks the same as a FLIRT bar the less pointy nose.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It might be that passengers are now learning to work around it, but it is yet another aspect of the absolutely woeful design of these awful units.

I'll be honest, I don't agree about the doors on the Merseyrail units.

The doors in the driving coaches are at 1/2 and in the intermediates are at 1/4 and 3/4, but because the driving coaches have a smaller passenger cabin the distance between doors is about the same throughout the train. The gangway between coaches is full width so it's easy enough to move to the closest door in the next carriage.

Two sets of doors on the driving coaches would be complete overkill and you'd lose a lot of seating capacity.

This photo from Flickr by user Martyn Hilbert illustrates it on the 777:

Class 777 777010 - Kenilworth Road, Ainsdale.

The new order on Merseyrail.....with 'Not in Service' on the front destination display, four-car Stadler built Class 777 777010 was passing Kenilworth Road to the South of Ainsdale with the 16.22 Southport to Sandhills working (5U06) on July 19th 2021. The unit was undergoing daylight mileage...

www.flickr.com

And this photo from Wikimedia illustrates how two sets of doors on the 555s leaves little room for actual passenger accommodation:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Br_class555_002_arth-goldau_XAM-E1_%28cropped%29.jpg

I'd say they've got it the wrong way round on the 555, the longer intermediate carriages with only one door are going to be more of a pinch point. Having one window between two sets of doors on the driving carriages is just silly in comparison.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The doors in the driving coaches are at 1/2 and in the intermediates are at 1/4 and 3/4, but because the driving coaches have a smaller passenger cabin the distance between doors is about the same throughout the train. The gangway between coaches is full width so it's easy enough to move to the closest door in the next carriage.

This isn't correct. The passenger cabin on the end vehicles is, like basically all Stadler FLIRT/METRO type modular units, the same length as that of the intermediates. The space taken from the potential second door is on the wider windows (don't just count windows, it's misleading on modern trains as other than on Bombardier products they're almost never all the same size!)

The Stadler modular design makes the end vehicles longer by bolting the cab on the end so the passenger cabin is the same size (generally about 16m).

This photo from Flickr by user Martyn Hilbert illustrates it on the 777:

Class 777 777010 - Kenilworth Road, Ainsdale.

The new order on Merseyrail.....with 'Not in Service' on the front destination display, four-car Stadler built Class 777 777010 was passing Kenilworth Road to the South of Ainsdale with the 16.22 Southport to Sandhills working (5U06) on July 19th 2021. The unit was undergoing daylight mileage...

www.flickr.com

That photo (which I almost used as an example myself) clearly illustrates that the end vehicles are considerably longer than the intermediates.

And this photo from Wikimedia illustrates how two sets of doors on the 555s leaves little room for actual passenger accommodation:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Br_class555_002_arth-goldau_XAM-E1_%28cropped%29.jpg

The Metrocar vehicles are considerably shorter than the Merseyrail ones and the use-cases are a bit different (as the city is much smaller). It was pointed out above that the Merseyrail units aren't technically FLIRTs, but they do seem to have used a lot of the FLIRT derived modular body components to build them, and the same structural principles seem to apply (longer end vehicles due to the cab and the bogies, for instance).

Stadler will of course do you any door layout, so some more thought could have gone in, as it has on the Metrocars, to ensuring the doors are evenly spaced on the bodyside. Unfortunately while a lot of thought did go into the 777's design, most of it appears to have made things a lot worse than just picking a fairly standard Stadler design like the Anglia units.

 

[Mikey C]

StanEx is probably the oddity, personally I'd refit them all to the IC interior so all Norwich services are FLIRTs and use 720s on that.

As an airport service - i.e. lots of luggage - the lower floor 745s are really useful on the Stansted route. Especially as it also has a busy intermediate station in Tottenham Hale where a lot of people get on and off.

 

[Bikeman78]

I quite like the Greater Anglia units. I really don't like the Class 777 - I think it is by a long way the worst modern unit aside from the awful Class 720.

The 777 wins the worst unit award hands down. Have they managed to get over 1000 miles per failure yet? At least the 720s actually get from A to B without failing.

 

[Mikey C]

What I find strange, regarding the 720s is that despite sharing common flaws with the 360s they replaced, 3+2 seating, no arm rests etc, the 360s felt like a much nicer train.

Being 24m units vs 20m units, the 720s are narrower than the 360s, so 3+2 is going to be more cramped.

Indeed I can't think of any other 3+2 23/24m trains, other than the 165s/166s, which are quite wide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being 24m units vs 20m units, the 720s are narrower than the 360s, so 3+2 is going to be more cramped.

Though curiously all 720/730 units are the same width, there isn't a wider profile for the SWR 20m version nor the London Overground ones.

Indeed I can't think of any other 3+2 23/24m trains, other than the 165s/166s, which are quite wide.

Class 323. Though those are quite wide for a 23m unit - 2.80m wide, same width as a 20m Desiro - and have very thin sidewalls. In a 2.77m wide body with very thick sidewalls it was never going to work.