CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Lurcheroo]

Just adding to what others have said, sometimes you do get a 197 Holyhead- Chester or Shrewsbury which is then swapped for a 158 that goes on to Birmingham.

 

[Russel]

Thanks for the info!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Makes sense to get them cleared and crew trained up for Birmingham’s ASAP really, and that way if a 158 isn’t available the only part that needs a swap for is the Shrewsbury - Cambrian section.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Makes sense to get them cleared and crew trained up for Birmingham’s ASAP really, and that way if a 158 isn’t available the only part that needs a swap for is the Shrewsbury - Cambrian section.

Crews already trained excluding Machynlleth conductors who work 3 services a day to Birmingham.
Just be the same as if a 150,153 or 175 turned up on one of their jobs, they just need a Shrewsbury Crewe or Chester guard to work it whilst they do revenue.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

Clearing them should be easy enough as the 196’s go down there already as far as new street, main thing would be ASDO profiles and stopping points for 5 and 6 car formations.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Crews already trained excluding Machynlleth conductors who work 3 services a day to Birmingham.
Just be the same as if a 150,153 or 175 turned up on one of their jobs, they just need a Shrewsbury Crewe or Chester guard to work it whilst they do revenue.

Ah right so how come we haven’t had a 197 work to Birmingham yet then?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Ah right so how come we haven’t had a 197 work to Birmingham yet then?

It’s a limited size team that do the route clearing work and whilst I say it should be easy enough, I mean that only in the fact that there should be no nasty surprises (but you never know) and they’ve had much bigger priorities to deal with.

 

[craigybagel]

Crews already trained excluding Machynlleth conductors who work 3 services a day to Birmingham.
Just be the same as if a 150,153 or 175 turned up on one of their jobs, they just need a Shrewsbury Crewe or Chester guard to work it whilst they do revenue.

Clearing them should be easy enough as the 196’s go down there already as far as new street, main thing would be ASDO profiles and stopping points for 5 and 6 car formations.

Ah right so how come we haven’t had a 197 work to Birmingham yet then?

It’s a limited size team that do the route clearing work and whilst I say it should be easy enough, I mean that only in the fact that there should be no nasty surprises (but you never know) and they’ve had much bigger priorities to deal with.

They're physically cleared now for ECS trips - they were cleared to run that way to allow the trips to and from Tyseley depot to use TfW's own drivers. But tests will be needed to set up ASDO and check stopping positions and so on - and given there are so few diagrams to Birmingham they can be used on, and no spare units to use anyway, there just hasn't been any point in doing that work yet.

 

[Krokodil]

Not entirely; the RSSB did a study and produced a method for providing a numerical score for seat comfort (using factors such as recline angle, compressability of seat cushions etc.) - I think something similar has been done in continental Europe too - the latest version of the Rail Delivery Groups' best practice document recommends using one of the two method when procuring new stock, but TOCs seem happy to ignore it (although I think it also notes that the seat comfort standard might conflict with the PRM requirements).

I still reckon that the best test would be for a TOC's board of directors to spend a month using proposed passenger seats as office chairs.

 

[Topological]

I still reckon that the best test would be for a TOC's board of directors to spend a month using proposed passenger seats as office chairs.

As long as they fit the seat part onto a base with wheels... how else will the directors be able to race around the office and generally spin around when pretending to work?

I think I could use the 197 seat as an office chair quite happily, but I have only ever done 3 hours on one.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I still reckon that the best test would be for a TOC's board of directors to spend a month using proposed passenger seats as office chairs.

That could be useful too, but once the seats are installed in the trains the directors (and anyone else in the organisation who has a say in what seats are installed in the fleet) should have to continue using them in the office for much longer than just a month. The first month would be a trial before specifying them on the trains, so if they don't like them they can be changed before the fleet order is placed.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

At Crewe depot at the moment from memory are 197024, 197030 and 197003.

 

[The_Train]

On 197117 this morning, the train was quite full, but passengers seemed reluctant to use the emptier standard plus area. No announcements were made about whether it was available or chargeable. It does need to be clear what it's status is.

I don't blame people for being reluctant considering how the railways seem to be ready and waiting to sting people for a penalty fare or worse. TfW should either be closing the area off until it can be utilised for the purpose they intend or put signs up at the entrance to it to advise it is de-classified and standard class tickets are valid in there (and if they did this I'd still be taking a photo of it for evidence)

 

[RailWonderer]

On 197117 this morning, the train was quite full, but passengers seemed reluctant to use the emptier standard plus area. No announcements were made about whether it was available or chargeable. It does need to be clear what it's status is.

At Piccadilly I did hear people walk past saying it was first and that they couldn't sit there, just because it looks like a first class area. There is no first signage as TfW on delivery decided the first would be standard plus which is now just standard in effect.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

197110 at Crewe depot today. Replaced by a Mk4 set. (20/8/24)

 

[BillStampy]

Was expecting 197120 to show up to take me to Cardiff this afternoon, as shown on RTT, but guess who shows up. 117! Atleast I can still take a look at Standard plus, the guard doesn't seem to be charging, since it is a Cheltenham service.

 

[Russel]

What's the situation with standard plus on the 197s currently?

 

[MP393]

What's the situation with standard plus on the 197s currently?

It’s still declassified with email briefs sent out to remind staff of this and not to charge until a later date, which hasn’t yet been announced yet but will be once all units are branded up.

 

[BillStampy]

At the moment a unit normally works north to Chester, then sits there for a day or two whilst maintenance and branding is carried out, then it is sent back out. For example a unit I went on had no Branding one day, went up to Chester, next time I saw it it had branding. So it shouldn't take too long to brand them all

 

[ajay1071]

Had a ride on a few 197's units with standard plus yesterday, my tickets were checked by the guards with no mention of the upgrade, on one service there was even a team of revenue protection officers, again no up grade asked for or required. So my advice for passengers is treat standard plus as normal second class at the moment until there is a definitive upgrade policy and that up grade policy should be announced by the guard before departure.

 

[BillStampy]

When was the last time 197101 was in service? I've seen it hiding around the Pullman depot on Canton quite a few times in the last month or two (including today), 197104 is now parked up nearby too.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Had a ride on a few 197's units with standard plus yesterday, my tickets were checked by the guards with no mention of the upgrade, on one service there was even a team of revenue protection officers, again no up grade asked for or required. So my advice for passengers is treat standard plus as normal second class at the moment until there is a definitive upgrade policy and that up grade policy should be announced by the guard before departure.

I think it has been well clarified that it is still declassified and that there will be no upgrade charge untill further notice.
The TM's will recieve instructions on what to do regarding upgrades once they are to come into effect. The anouncments may be automatic so they may be asked not to make manual ones to avoid the potential for confusion. But we will leave that up to TFW. And even if TFW do ask TM's to make manual announcments, it will ultimatly be up to any individual TM whether or not they do.

 

[BillStampy]

I think it has been well clarified that it is still declassified and that there will be no upgrade charge untill further notice.

I think quite a few people were offputted by the signage on my trip to Cardiff aboard 117 earlier, a lot of people in Standard Class, walking near the doors then turning to find somewhere else. There was me and 2 others in Standard Plus, that's it. It isn't very well clarified aboard!

 

[Topological]

The problem is that every now and again someone will reply to this thread with things like "the branded units say pay for upgrade so you should expect to pay" or similar. That then casts doubt.

To me it is very clear that there are no upgrade charges at the moment. If a guard tried to charge then I would respectfully point this out. However, I do not expect that they would ask for an upgrade fee.

Both 197s I was on today did not have Standard Plus though.

 

[Dai Corner]

How long does it take to put some notices up, which I believe is all the branding is?

Why not decide on a date to launch Standard Plus and brand all the units the night before?

 

[BillStampy]

Why not decide on a date to launch Standard Plus and brand all the units the night before?

Since this branding work would be done at Chester, there wouldn't be space to fit all the 197/1s with SD+ in there for work, it seemingly takes a day to brand them, resulting in every one of the SD+ 197s being out of use for one day.

 

[Dai Corner]

Since this branding work would be done at Chester, there wouldn't be space to fit all the 197/1s with SD+ in there for work, it seemingly takes a day to brand them, resulting in every one of the SD+ 197s being out of use for one day.

That's what puzzles me. Why does it seemingly take a whole day and have to be done at Chester?

 

[Lewisham2221]

How long does it take to put some notices up, which I believe is all the branding is?

Why not decide on a date to launch Standard Plus and brand all the units the night before?

There is branding applied to all the windows and doors on the standard plus area, plus "upgrade" branding/advertising applied to windows throughout the train. Given that the 197s stable overnight at multiple locations across the TfW network and that "overnight" can be as little as a couple of hours, it's far easier to do it the way it's being done.

 

[sd0733]

That's what puzzles me. Why does it seemingly take a whole day and have to be done at Chester?

It was planned to be done on scheduled stoppages for other work such as exams to avoid stopping them just for branding.

All the materials are in Chester, it's fitted by CAF, dotting materials around the country doing it all over the place would be almost guaranteed to take longer and lead to units not being completed, many of the overnight stabling points are effectively clean, fuel, prep and back out.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

I would be interested to know what happens when the regular swaps take place at Chester due to the poor system of looking after the fleet all having to go to Chester, the swapping units is regular. If for example i board a train at Ruabon and i’m going to Bangor and its 197125 i ask to upgrade to Standard Plus and it’s sold to me and I get my big seat. Then we arrive at Chester we swap for example to 197010 and it’s already full because people have boarded it before we arrive. We also change conductor but i have my upgrade and no seat. What happens then?

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Was expecting 197120 to show up to take me to Cardiff this afternoon, as shown on RTT, but guess who shows up. 117! Atleast I can still take a look at Standard plus, the guard doesn't seem to be charging, since it is a Cheltenham service.

Doesn't the guard and driver usual swap at Cardiff on them?