CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Anonymous10]

At a time when it seems first class is in danger of being phased out in the UK it amazes me that a THIRD class is even being considered for the 197s !.

Third class?

 

[Topological]

Third class?

For when the 150s go to Manchester.

 

[Krokodil]

At a time when it seems first class is in danger of being phased out in the UK it amazes me that a THIRD class is even being considered for the 197s !.

There was a recognition that routes such as Cardiff to Manchester see a lot of business travel and that there was an opportunity to attract extra revenue (not just the upgrades, but also by attracting travellers who would prefer their car to normal Standard Class accommodation).

 

[Lurcheroo]

Thank you.

With the branding starting to appear it makes it feel like a passenger could be charged for being in the Standard Plus part. It is pleasing to know that there are no such charging plans in place.

Standard Plus will be fine on a 5-car, but not on a 3-car. It would probably be fine on a 4-car, but there is no way to have a 4-car with Standard Plus. The valid point being raised is that the units can appear as 3-cars and in that case the Standard Plus is taking valuable standard capacity. Even declassified there are fewer seats. Clear guidance that Standard Plus only applies on 5-car would help greatly.

Not having a premium product on 197s would be even better, but as I say I am in a minority on that one.

The internal email we had just said it wouldn’t be charged until all units have received branding and a full brief would be sent out.
If, once it is being charged, for example a 3 car with standard plus did work a Holyhead / Cardiff that want that busy, they would still charge for standard plus. It would only be if the guard de-classified it due to overcrowding.

I'm not sure why the Cambrian is on the list, given that none of the units will be ETCS-fitted.

There is a possibility that all units will get ETCS at some point due to a portion of the WCML getting it, so perhaps they’re covering all bases ?
Seems a stretch to me though. (Although as I’ve said probably a hundred times) I do think in the 6 weeks of summer the Cambrian should have 3+3 Birmingham international to Machynlleth!

Genuine question: in what way is it very different?

I've just checked with a Holyhead guard and they reckon that tea and biscuits are still complimentary. Apart from the fact that the ride in a Mk4 is leagues ahead of a 197.

You also get a dedicated host and a significantly better catering option available that just could not be provided without a full kitchen as the MK4’s have.

 

[Topological]

The internal email we had just said it wouldn’t be charged until all units have received branding and a full brief would be sent out.
If, once it is being charged, for example a 3 car with standard plus did work a Holyhead / Cardiff that want that busy, they would still charge for standard plus. It would only be if the guard de-classified it due to overcrowding.

Thank you

Though there is obviously some confusion as @Krokodil clearly states charges either do (or could) apply on the branded units.

The TfW website opens the way for charging.

I do not know why the website cannot say "We are currently preparing our trains. Watch out for the new Standard Premium coming soon. In the meantime you can enjoy the facilities on trains fitted with Standard Premium at no additional charge on any valid ticket for the journey being taken".

The clarity of the communication is pretty poor.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

At a time when it seems first class is in danger of being phased out in the UK it amazes me that a THIRD class is even being considered for the 197s !.

That has never been considered.

 

[berneyarms]

That has never been considered.

He means three classes are now on offer from TfW:

Standard Class
1st Class
Standard Premium

 

[Anonymous10]

For when the 150s go to Manchester.

150s are hardly going to Manchester, it's only on very rare occasions think in recent months its only been twice they've done a full round trip of West Wales to Manchester and back.

 

[Topological]

150s are hardly going to Manchester, it's only on very rare occasions think in recent months its only been twice they've done a full round trip of West Wales to Manchester and back.

Nor is anyone introducing a Third Class...

The 150s should not be going to Manchester at all and we have suffered them on that route for far longer than we ever should have done. Sorry if saying things against TfW is not allowed, but even the regulator told TfW off for their failure to maintain 175s during the transition.

Thankfully we are emerging from the darkest days and can actually look forward to a better service. I hoped we were at the point where we could joke about the bad times, seems not everyone is there yet.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

At a time when it seems first class is in danger of being phased out in the UK it amazes me that a THIRD class is even being considered for the 197s !.

Avanti is already using 3, standard, standard premium and first

 

[WirralLine]

As I understand it SP upgrade will be chargeable on any route with the fares in system, which includes North Wales-Manchester/Cardiff, Chester-Liverpool. Pretty sure even the Bidston line has the SP fares in the system despite 3 cars not being used down there.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Pretty sure even the Bidston line has the SP fares in the system despite 3 cars not being used down there.

Yep, an upgrade is £5.50 for an Adult for seemingly any two station pairs

 

[Anonymous10]

Nor is anyone introducing a Third Class...

The 150s should not be going to Manchester at all and we have suffered them on that route for far longer than we ever should have done. Sorry if saying things against TfW is not allowed, but even the regulator told TfW off for their failure to maintain 175s during the transition.

Thankfully we are emerging from the darkest days and can actually look forward to a better service. I hoped we were at the point where we could joke about the bad times, seems not everyone is there yet.

I'm not disputing that, I don't like that 150s were used, I travel regularly between pembrokeshire and Cardiff. What I'm saying is that's far from the normal now thankfully.

 

[Russel]

I rode a few 197s yesterday around North Wales and on the Conwy Valley, I can't say I really noticed any issue with the ride quality, I also didn't hear anyone else moan about it, so maybe it's not as bad as it's being made out to be on here...

 

[sd0733]

I rode a few 197s yesterday around North Wales and on the Conwy Valley, I can't say I really noticed any issue with the ride quality, I also didn't hear anyone else moan about it, so maybe it's not as bad as it's being made out to be on here...

A lot of it depends where you are in a coach. In the middle they're just about ok, at the coach ends they're awful. Passengers asking "what's wrong with this train" as it rattles along is a common question when working but almost always from those near the ends.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Does anyone know what the seating capacity of a 5 car (3+2) 197 is compared to the 5-car MkIV sets?

I don't know the capacity of the mark 4 sets, but from the class 197 set plan I can tell you that:

• Class 197/0 (2-car) units have 116 standard seats (+7 tip-up)
• Class 197/1 (3-car) units have either:
  • 188 standard seats (+10 tip-up) (presumably this applies to units 197101–197112) or
  • 158 standard seats (+10 tip-up) and 16 'first class' seats (presumably this applies to units 197113-197126)

This means that a 5-car class 197 formation will have either 304 standard seats (+17 tip-up) or 274 standard seats (+17 tip-up) and 16 'first class'/'standard plus'.

first class should be first class

When the class 197s were ordered, there were no plans for 'Standard Plus' - it was planned to be known as First Class, same as the mark 4s to Holyhead. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the regulator would not authorise the relevant units to carry passengers due to the 'First Class' area not meeting PRM requirements.

I would hope so. I believe the plan eventually is for Standard Plus to be on Swansea-Manchester services which will be formed of 5 carriages (2 and 3). Possibly other routes as well including Cardiff-Holyhead may get them?

They will almost certainly appear on various routes - even before the idea of mark 4s running to Manchester there were already more than enough 197s on-order with 'first class' (as it was thought it would be known at the time) to cover more than just an hourly Manchester-Swansea service. Now that half the Manchester-Cardiff workings are planned to be mark 4s, there will be fewer 'First Class'/Standard Plus units required on that route so even more chance of seeing them elsewhere.

I wonder if these situations have been discussed at all when they decided not to have proper first class on the 197s as was originally planned.

It seems unnecessarily confusing to have two separate premium offerings depending on the rolling stock. They should either rebrand First on the Mk4s as Std+ or call it First on the 197s as well

The 197s can't be branded as 1st class as they're not PRM compliant.

What I cannot understand is why 'Standard Plus' is PRM compliant but 'First Class' isn't even though they are basically two different names for the same thing. The only difference I can think of is that 'First Class' tickets can be purchased ahead of travel but 'Standard Plus' will be an on-train upgrade only, which doesn't change the fact that the premium offering is not available to disabled passengers and therefore 'Standard Plus' is still discrimination against disabled persons. Can anyone explain this?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Thank you

Though there is obviously some confusion as @Krokodil clearly states charges either do (or could) apply on the branded units.

The TfW website opens the way for charging.

I do not know why the website cannot say "We are currently preparing our trains. Watch out for the new Standard Premium coming soon. In the meantime you can enjoy the facilities on trains fitted with Standard Premium at no additional charge on any valid ticket for the journey being taken".

The clarity of the communication is pretty poor.

The email said “Don’t do anything different at the moment” so as it’s stands, definitely no charges.
Not sure why the website isn’t quite so clear in honesty.

Personally I read what Krokodil wrote as meaning ‘if a passenger is in doubt because they see the branding then treat as though it is pay to upgrade, and speak to the conductor, that way there can be no confusion, disappointment or disagreement about it’. Just my take on what they said.

I rode a few 197s yesterday around North Wales and on the Conwy Valley, I can't say I really noticed any issue with the ride quality, I also didn't hear anyone else moan about it, so maybe it's not as bad as it's being made out to be on here...

Sometimes I find them fine, other times I’m shaken all over the place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

I don't know the capacity of the mark 4 sets, but from the class 197 set plan I can tell you that:

• Class 197/0 (2-car) units have 116 standard seats (+7 tip-up)
• Class 197/1 (3-car) units have either:
  • 188 standard seats (+10 tip-up) (presumably this applies to units 197101–197112) or
  • 158 standard seats (+10 tip-up) and 16 'first class' seats (presumably this applies to units 197113-197126)

This means that a 5-car class 197 formation will have either 304 standard seats (+17 tip-up) or 274 standard seats (+17 tip-up) and 16 'first class'/'standard plus'.

I have the 5 coach sets down as 258 standard and 40 first class.

 

[sd0733]

I have the 5 coach sets down as 258 standard and 40 first class.

Pretty much what I've got but the fleet material states 262 standard and 41 first (40 on HD01-03 due to an extra PRM space). Very similar seating capacity really to a 5 car 197.

 

[Tom125]

What I cannot understand is why 'Standard Plus' is PRM compliant but 'First Class' isn't even though they are basically two different names for the same thing. The only difference I can think of is that 'First Class' tickets can be purchased ahead of travel but 'Standard Plus' will be an on-train upgrade only, which doesn't change the fact that the premium offering is not available to disabled passengers and therefore 'Standard Plus' is still discrimination against disabled persons. Can anyone explain this?

That's the bit I don't understand either, Surely if a disabled passenger in a wheelchair challenged the fact that they could not upgrade to standard plus because of their disability and lack of facilities that would be by definition descriminatory?

 

[Lurcheroo]

Pretty much what I've got but the fleet material states 262 standard and 41 first (40 on HD01-03 due to an extra PRM space). Very similar seating capacity really to a 5 car 197.

Ahh that makes sense! I counted 41 on the first class layout so adds up as it must be based on HD04+.
Ye very similar, I thought the 197’s might have been a bit higher in comparison as the MK4 has the whole coach 1st class and half a coach for the buffet!

Potentially a 6 car 197 could have 376 seats (3+3) which could provide some serious capacity for event days.

There was a plan for 2 services a day (07:30 and 15:30) to go to Birmingham as 6 cars (2+2+2) which would provide a very healthy 348 seats. Any idea if that’s still the plan ?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ahh that makes sense! I counted 41 on the first class layout so adds up as it must be based on HD04+.
Ye very similar, I thought the 197’s might have been a bit higher in comparison as the MK4 has the whole coach 1st class and half a coach for the buffet!

5-car class 197 formations do have slightly more standard class capacity than a mark 4 set then, which you'd expect given that both are 5 coach trains and the mark 4s have a whole coach devoted to first class instead of just a small bit. I wonder how the seat-pitch/legroom and proportion of bays of 4 compares between the mark 4s and 197s? Ignoring tip-up seats, a 5-car class 197 formed without 'Standard Plus' would have 304 seats, exactly the same as a 5-car class 175 would have given you. However, with the 175s you have more bays, more ground-level luggage racks, two extra toilets and the 'airline-style' seats each have an extra 2cm between rows. I'm not sure how the seat-pitch on the bays compares, I wasn't sure how to measure them on the 175s - no need to measure with the 197s as the seat plan says all, a table bay on a 197 takes up 1840mm (200mm more than two rows of the 197's airline-style seats at 82cm spacing). On the 197s, the space seems to have gone into catering cupboards and double-width exterior doors.

 

[DelW]

That's the bit I don't understand either, Surely if a disabled passenger in a wheelchair challenged the fact that they could not upgrade to standard plus because of their disability and lack of facilities that would be by definition descriminatory?

If the only difference is the seating (with no extras like catering), then presumably the passenger in a wheelchair wouldn't gain any benefit from travelling in standard plus, since by definition they won't be using the seats?

 

[WirralLine]

I've been working 197s since day 1, but not often I travel as a passenger on them long distance. I took an early train down to Newport last week - the last time I did so it was a 175.

I've generally found the seats to be fine on 197s for the short journeys I normally make, but 3hours not so much. The bottom of my back was particularly uncomfortable, and I couldn't get into a position comfortable enough to fall asleep as the seats are quite upright. The 175s were slightly more reclined so I never had an issue snoozing on those! I also found due to the seat supports diagonally under the seat, I couldn't stretch my legs fully forward and had to kind of twist and stretch out to the side. I did eventually nod off hunched over leaning on the tray table. Of course seating as we know is very much personal preference.

I was hoping for standard plus and the reclining seats but unfortunately it was a 2x2 formation! A plus note, compared to the 2car 175 I had last time, it was much less overcrowded due to the extra coaches.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If the only difference is the seating (with no extras like catering), then presumably the passenger in a wheelchair wouldn't gain any benefit from travelling in standard plus, since by definition they won't be using the seats?

There are other disabilities besides those which require the use of a wheelchair; and there are priority seats in Standard Plus (or at least, they were marked on the seat plan as such when it was known as First Class), but no toilet (of any sort) in that entire coach for any class of passenger.

I've generally found the seats to be fine on 197s for the short journeys I normally make, but 3hours not so much.

That's exactly what I found with GWR's class 800/802 seats - fine for the first few short trips I did to try them out, but Carmarthen to Cardiff (nearly 2 hours) was starting to become an endurance test, so I decided those seats were ok for journeys of up to 90mins but to be avoided on longer trips. 'Ironing boards' are even worse, I avoid those on any journey longer than 1 hour (it's 1hr for 150s as well, although in that case the seats are good but it's the lack of legroom that makes a long trip something to be avoided).

Of course seating as we know is very much personal preference.

Not entirely; the RSSB did a study and produced a method for providing a numerical score for seat comfort (using factors such as recline angle, compressability of seat cushions etc.) - I think something similar has been done in continental Europe too - the latest version of the Rail Delivery Groups' best practice document recommends using one of the two method when procuring new stock, but TOCs seem happy to ignore it (although I think it also notes that the seat comfort standard might conflict with the PRM requirements).

 

[DelW]

There are other disabilities besides those which require the use of a wheelchair; and there are priority seats in Standard Plus (or at least, they were marked on the seat plan as such when it was known as First Class), but no toilet (of any sort) in that entire coach for any class of passenger.

So how is there any discrimination? What category of passengers can't upgrade to Standard Plus? The suggested one so far is wheelchair users but they wouldn't benefit anyway.

 

[Rhydgaled]

So how is there any discrimination? What category of passengers can't upgrade to Standard Plus? The suggested one so far is wheelchair users but they wouldn't benefit anyway.

I'm not sure. Possibly if you're disability means you need easy access to a toilet, paying extra to sit in Standard Plus actually means you are sat further from the loo than if you were to sit in one of the other coaches at the normal standard fare? There obviously is discrimination, since TfW weren't allowed to call it 'First Class', but I don't understand the difference.

 

[Russel]

Do the 197s work any of the New Street to Holyhead services yet? All I've seen recently have been 158s still.

 

[berneyarms]

Do the 197s work any of the New Street to Holyhead services yet? All I've seen recently have been 158s still.

No they don't, as they are interworked with the Cambrian services.

That won't change until the Cambrian sets are introduced.

 

[43055]

Do the 197s work any of the New Street to Holyhead services yet? All I've seen recently have been 158s still.

Not yet. The Birmingham - Holyhead services interwork with the Aberystwyth and Pwllheli services so will change over when the ETCS units enter service.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Do the 197s work any of the New Street to Holyhead services yet? All I've seen recently have been 158s still.

No, the Birmingham services are all 158s still as most of the diagrams alternate between North Wales and Cambrian services.