CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Richard Scott]

I travel between Severn Tunnel Junction and Lydney weekly and, apart from a short section between Caldicot and Chepstow where they get unsettled, I find they ride fine whether sitting or standing.

Ride was very poor from Lydney to Gloucester.

 

[Caaardiff]

DMUs yes; brand new ones no. The problem is the amount of life remaining in them (ie. pretty much their entire design life, which I assume will be the same 35-40 years of previous generations of stock). To quote David Attenborough (at least I think it was him) "we know where this story is heading, and we know we must give it a different ending". What is/was needed is cascaded half-life DMUs built around 10-20 years ago with another 10-20 years life left in them. Failing that, bi-modes (with or without the pantographs actually being fitted from day one - given the limited amount of OHLE currently available it probably makes sense to leave them off (as TfW did with the 769s if I recall correctly) at first to save having to maintain them).

What half life DMU's do you propose TFW should have had? Were they readily available between 2019 and now?
When do you propose the Manchester - Marches - West Wales line will be electrified? Within the next 30 years?
What about the rest of the TFW network?

Where would those trains have also come from to replace Northerns 195's (58 of them) and WMR's 196's (26 of them)?

How would the UK network have coped without the 161 Civitys that will be on the network once TFW get all of theirs in service?

 

[Rhydgaled]

What half life DMU's do you propose TFW should have had? Were they readily available between 2019 and now?

TfW had/have some (175s and 158s) but opted to replace them instead. There were also the 170s that TfW had breifly although you could perhaps argue they weren't really 'readily available' but the DfT/WG messed up and allowed undeliverable franchise committments involving them. I accept that there are probably not enough such units for the UK network to manage without the 195s and 197s unless alternative new trains had been ordered instead (which is why I included the "Failing that, bi-modes" bit).

I'll try to answer the rest of your questions by private message, as we're going off-topic for this thread.

 

[Western 52]

197117 now has standard plus branding.

 

[Jez]

197117 now has standard plus branding.

I noticed when I was on 197124 in standard class on the windows it stays to speak to the guard about upgrading to standard plus. This is the first unit ive seen it on. It might be a bit confusing for customers at the moment however as I think anyone can sit in standard plus at the moment. It looked full and standing when I was on 197124.

 

[animationmilo]

I noticed when I was on 197124 in standard class on the windows it stays to speak to the guard about upgrading to standard plus. This is the first unit ive seen it on. It might be a bit confusing for customers at the moment however as I think anyone can sit in standard plus at the moment. It looked full and standing when I was on 197124.

I would say they are going to have to be careful trying enforce it until the 197s are on the correct routes.

 

[Philip Roberts]

I would say they are going to have to be careful trying enforce it until the 197s are on the correct routes.

Is the plan to only use standard plus when they're coupled up to another unit?

 

[animationmilo]

Is the plan to only use standard plus when they're coupled up to another unit?

Would make sense

 

[Jez]

Is the plan to only use standard plus when they're coupled up to another unit?

I would hope so. I believe the plan eventually is for Standard Plus to be on Swansea-Manchester services which will be formed of 5 carriages (2 and 3). Possibly other routes as well including Cardiff-Holyhead may get them? But they need to be careful as capacity is already limited quite often on the Manchester-Swansea's when a 3 car turns up so taking out half a carriage for seating/standing space for standard plus customers could make things even more crammed in standard class.

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Would make sense

It would. But they need to clear the full route to Manchester for 5 cars first as any standard plus connected to another unit is going to be 5 car minimum.

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The notice on the windows in standard class says 'treat yourself to extra space with a Standard Plus Seat. Talk to your conductor to buy a ticket upgrade today'

So it makes it clear its just a nicer seat with more space and none of the other extras you get with first class. But its going to cause confusion until its rolled out properly I think.

 

[Topological]

I would hope so. I believe the plan eventually is for Standard Plus to be on Swansea-Manchester services which will be formed of 5 carriages (2 and 3). Possibly other routes as well including Cardiff-Holyhead may get them? But they need to be careful as capacity is already limited quite often on the Manchester-Swansea's when a 3 car turns up so taking out half a carriage for seating/standing space for standard plus customers could make things even more crammed in standard class.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==


It would. But they need to clear the full route to Manchester for 5 cars first as any standard plus connected to another unit is going to be 5 car minimum.

Is this where we are told that 2 and a bit carriages of a 3-car is better than a 2-car and so no complaining?

It would be good to have the definitive position on when standard plus is chargeable.

I wish they had not bothered with any of this, but appreciate I am in a reduced set who think that first class should be first class and only on longer trains where the standard class proportion is fixed high enough to cope with expected loadings.

As soon as a 3-car 197 turns up now we have a very real situation that the standard class proportion is not high enough (otherwise why run 5-car?). In such cases the creation of any differentiated product just generates a minefield.

The MK4 arguably do now meet the criteria for having enough standard class. I still wish they would replace them with 197s and bring an all day cross Cardiff timetable back though.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I would say they are going to have to be careful trying enforce it until the 197s are on the correct routes.

Why is that ? It’s an onboard upgrade only and there are upgrade fares in the system for most routes from what I have heard.

Is the plan to only use standard plus when they're coupled up to another unit?

No, just like 1st class it’s always in operation and can be de-classified by the conductor if they deem it necessary.

Would make sense

Why would it ? Yes some can be overcrowded as a 3 car so the conductor can then declassify it. But on any service that isn’t overcrowded then it operates as normal.

 

[Jez]

The MK4 arguably do now meet the criteria for having enough standard class. I still wish they would replace them with 197s and bring an all day cross Cardiff timetable back though.

Me too although at least from December the majority of them will be valid connections at Cardiff with 7 minutes between the arrival from West Wales and departure of the MK4 to Manchester. Currently some Manchesters depart Cardiff before the train from West Wales has even arrived let alone enough time to transfer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

Is this where we are told that 2 and a bit carriages of a 3-car is better than a 2-car and so no complaining?

Sometimes even 3 cars struggle at peak time. It was the Manchester-Tenby service which also makes Swanline stops and is at the time when lots are travelling home from work. Ideally at least 4 cars are required for this service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2024 ==

Why is that ? It’s an onboard upgrade only and there are upgrade fares in the system for most routes from what I have heard.

Standard Class is supposed to be on certain routes though is it not? So if one ends up going to Maesteg for example are many people going to want to pay to upgrade if going a short distance? Therefore that space could be wasted if no-one uses standard plus and we could end up with a packed 2 car on the Marches.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Is this where we are told that 2 and a bit carriages of a 3-car is better than a 2-car and so no complaining?

Finally we’re getting somewhere !! (I joke haha).

It would be good to have the definitive position on when standard plus is chargeable.

If you mean a date then it’s not set yet, and won’t be until all the sets have branding which is just happening as and when it can.

I wish they had not bothered with any of this, but appreciate I am in a reduced set who think that first class should be first class and only on longer trains where the standard class proportion is fixed high enough to cope with expected loadings.

As soon as a 3-car 197 turns up now we have a very real situation that the standard class proportion is not high enough (otherwise why run 5-car?). In such cases the creation of any differentiated product just generates a minefield.

The idea when ordered (and still is) is that they we like operate as 3+2 so plenty of capacity and a nice little upgrade for those who want it. Perhaps there will be more demand than capacity for the standard plus section but that really is a minor problem if there’s enough standard capacity (as a 5 car). Of course there are unit availability shortages at the moment and 5 cars not cleared to Manchester so they have to just run as a stand-alone 3 car but all these issues should be resolved at some point and it should work quite well.

 

[py_megapixel]

It seems unnecessarily confusing to have two separate premium offerings depending on the rolling stock. They should either rebrand First on the Mk4s as Std+ or call it First on the 197s as well

 

[Chorley Cake]

There were a number of units stabled in Crewe South Yard just now. Does anybody know which ones ? Three car yet to go in service ? Machynlleth units ?

 

[Jez]

If you mean a date then it’s not set yet, and won’t be until all the sets have branding which is just happening as and when it can.

In the meantime its going to confuse people having the branding on the sets and windows in standard class also telling people to treat themselves to an upgrade. Although I get that they cant just rebrand all the sets overnight ready for the start of it. Maybe an annoucement from the conductor is required informing passengers that standard class isnt quite ready yet and they can sit there without an additional fee.

 

[Topological]

Finally we’re getting somewhere !! (I joke haha).


If you mean a date then it’s not set yet, and won’t be until all the sets have branding which is just happening as and when it can.


The idea when ordered (and still is) is that they we like operate as 3+2 so plenty of capacity and a nice little upgrade for those who want it. Perhaps there will be more demand than capacity for the standard plus section but that really is a minor problem if there’s enough standard capacity (as a 5 car). Of course there are unit availability shortages at the moment and 5 cars not cleared to Manchester so they have to just run as a stand-alone 3 car but all these issues should be resolved at some point and it should work quite well.

Thank you.

With the branding starting to appear it makes it feel like a passenger could be charged for being in the Standard Plus part. It is pleasing to know that there are no such charging plans in place.

Standard Plus will be fine on a 5-car, but not on a 3-car. It would probably be fine on a 4-car, but there is no way to have a 4-car with Standard Plus. The valid point being raised is that the units can appear as 3-cars and in that case the Standard Plus is taking valuable standard capacity. Even declassified there are fewer seats. Clear guidance that Standard Plus only applies on 5-car would help greatly.

Not having a premium product on 197s would be even better, but as I say I am in a minority on that one.

 

[Jez]

It seems unnecessarily confusing to have two separate premium offerings depending on the rolling stock. They should either rebrand First on the Mk4s as Std+ or call it First on the 197s as well

I agree. It will be confusing for some passengers. Especially if a Standard Plus 197 covers for a MK4. Will first class passengers be required to pay for the standard plus if they choose to and just get a refund for first class or will they be allowed to sit in standard as a gesture of goodwill and still get their refund for proper first class not provided. I wonder if these situations have been discussed at all when they decided not to have proper first class on the 197s as was originally planned.

 

[Philip Roberts]

Does anyone know what the seating capacity of a 5 car (3+2) 197 is compared to the 5-car MkIV sets?

 

[Krokodil]

Standard Class is supposed to be on certain routes though is it not? So if one ends up going to Maesteg for example are many people going to want to pay to upgrade if going a short distance? Therefore that space could be wasted if no-one uses standard plus and we could end up with a packed 2 car on the Marches.

The fares aren't in the system for South Wales Metro routes like Maesteg so it's probable that in the rare event of one of these units escaping to Maesteg that the accomodation will be declassified for the trip. It would however be prudent to check with the guard rather than just assuming that you can sit in a seat marked as a premium one without getting charged. As the signs are now up in some units, you should assume that you will have to pay in them unless you are told otherwise by the guard of that train.

It seems unnecessarily confusing to have two separate premium offerings depending on the rolling stock. They should either rebrand First on the Mk4s as Std+ or call it First on the 197s as well

The Mk4 First Class offering is very different to the 197 Standard Plus and the fares reflect that.

 

[Topological]

The fares aren't in the system for South Wales Metro routes like Maesteg so it's probable that in the rare event of one of these units escaping to Maesteg that the accomodation will be declassified for the trip. It would however be prudent to check with the guard rather than just assuming that you can sit in a seat marked as a premium one without getting charged. As the signs are now up in some units, you should assume that you will have to pay in them unless you are told otherwise by the guard of that train.


The Mk4 First Class offering is very different to the 197 Standard Plus and the fares reflect that.

This would conflict with what has been said about no date being set for the introduction of Standard Plus.

A clear statement needs to be made, ideally on the TfW website so that it can be quoted whenever any guard tries to charge.

 

[craigybagel]

It seems unnecessarily confusing to have two separate premium offerings depending on the rolling stock. They should either rebrand First on the Mk4s as Std+ or call it First on the 197s as well

The 197s can't be branded as 1st class as they're not PRM compliant.

 

[Western 52]

On 197117 this morning, the train was quite full, but passengers seemed reluctant to use the emptier standard plus area. No announcements were made about whether it was available or chargeable. It does need to be clear what it's status is.

 

[Krokodil]

A clear statement needs to be made, ideally on the TfW website so that it can be quoted whenever any guard tries to charge.

A clear statement has been made. It's printed at the top of every window on the units in question. As far as the passengers are concerned they should assume that they may be charged if they sit in the labelled areas.

If they do not wish to risk being charged then they should sit in standard class. If the guard declassifies the accommodation (whether it forms a blanket policy until all units are signed, or just a one-train thing when the train is overcrowded) then the guard can notify passengers. If you want to know if the guard has/will be declassifying the accommodation then you should ask them, rather than just assuming that you can use it.

 

[py_megapixel]

The 197s can't be branded as 1st class as they're not PRM compliant.

Is this just because of the lack of a wheelchair space? Obvious solution is just to put the wheelchair space there instead of in Standard, and waive the upgrade fee for wheelchair users and their companions.

The Mk4 First Class offering is very different to the 197 Standard Plus and the fares reflect that.

Genuine question: in what way is it very different?

 

[MP393]

Is this just because of the lack of a wheelchair space? Obvious solution is just to put the wheelchair space there instead of in Standard, and waive the upgrade fee for wheelchair users and their companions.


Genuine question: in what way is it very different?

Not just the wheelchair space, but the universal toilet is at the opposite end of the train. Even if you placed a wheelchair space in that area, with the toilet being at the other end it still renders it non compliant.

 

[Topological]

A clear statement has been made. It's printed at the top of every window on the units in question. As far as the passengers are concerned they should assume that they may be charged if they sit in the labelled areas.

If they do not wish to risk being charged then they should sit in standard class. If the guard declassifies the accommodation (whether it forms a blanket policy until all units are signed, or just a one-train thing when the train is overcrowded) then the guard can notify passengers. If you want to know if the guard has/will be declassifying the accommodation then you should ask them, rather than just assuming that you can use it.

Surely the only way for it to be valid would be if announcements mention it?

The current TfW website on Standard Plus is as with most things TfW unhelpful:

All train ticket types | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

How will I know if Standard Plus is available on my train and how can I upgrade?​

You can only upgrade to Standard Plus on the train and your conductor can check availability when you buy your upgrade.

Upgrades to Standard Plus and First Class are subject to availability and sold on a first-come, first-served basis.

Explain that one...

 

[Krokodil]

Genuine question: in what way is it very different?

I've just checked with a Holyhead guard and they reckon that tea and biscuits are still complimentary. Apart from the fact that the ride in a Mk4 is leagues ahead of a 197.

Surely the only way for it to be valid would be if announcements mention it?

Experience from other operators shows that guards tend to promote it well (no point offering premium accommodation and not advertising it). But the signage is pretty clear so unless a passenger is visually impaired then they really can't miss it.

Explain that one...

Looks clear to me. Words to the effect of "Standard Plus and First Class are available on some trains, see the guard for an upgrade".

I'm not sure why the Cambrian is on the list, given that none of the units will be ETCS-fitted.

 

[Topological]

I've just checked with a Holyhead guard and they reckon that tea and biscuits are still complimentary. Apart from the fact that the ride in a Mk4 is leagues ahead of a 197.


Experience from other operators shows that guards tend to advertise it well. But the signage is pretty clear so unless a passenger is visually impaired then they really can't miss it.


Looks clear to me. Words to the effect of "Standard Plus and First Class are available on some trains, see the guard for an upgrade".

I'm not sure why the Cambrian is on the list, given that none of the units will be ETCS-fitted.

The wording would apply if the idea was for passengers to go and sit in normal standard class and then ask the guard if there was a possibility of an upgrade. However, the usual procedure would be pay the upgrade having sat in the seat (the availability issue goes away because clearly it is available owing to already being sat in the seat and trains on TfW not having reservations).

Avanti do a much better job: https://www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk/travel-information/onboard/standard-premium

How to upgrade to Standard Premium?​

There are two ways to upgrade your Standard Class ticket. You can do this either online before you travel or when you are onboard the train.

Upgrade online​

To guarantee your Standard Premium upgrade and to ensure a seat reservation we advise you to book online before you travel. You can do this via the Avanti West Coast app or through our website. Log in to your account and select select the upcoming journey that you would like to upgrade. Then simply follow the instructions to upgrade.

Upgrade onboard​

If you’ve booked a Standard Class ticket but fancy a bit of luxury at the last minute, you can move up to Standard Premium there and then. Just head to the Standard Premium coach when you get on and the Train Manager will upgrade your ticket.

On routes, it is also unclear why they split Cardiff to Manchester and describe Swansea to Severn Tunnel Junction as distinct from Newport to Manchester.

• Marches Line: Newport - Crewe/Manchester
• South Wales Mainline: Swansea - Severn Tunnel Junction

 

[Peter Sarf]

At a time when it seems first class is in danger of being phased out in the UK it amazes me that a THIRD class is even being considered for the 197s !.