Most expensive and cheapest heritage railway per mile ?

[nanstallon]

North Bay Railway by contrast was just £5.50 return, £4 single.

Not quite as long, though!

 

[YorkshireBear]

To "screw" any particular group of customers rather implies to me that you are looking for personal gain or profit. The reality is that the NYMR is attempting to survive in changed circumstances. Most of the people there are giving their time or efforts for free so you can enjoy your (in your eyes) expensive day out.
I was guard with a driver from the NYMR on my last K&ESR turn. He showed me a advert for a paid post at Grosmont for a multi disciplined railway operator. The salary quoted was so low that anybody applying would be doing so with the knowledge that they would be making a considerable personal sacrifice to get the job.
Im afraid that some people in the railway enthusiast "industry" really need a bit of a reality check.

Agreed.

Very good post Paul.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

Two? At least four!

Well indeed! But I was trying to be fair!

I'd rather they charged £100 to pay for the bridge but that is a separate matter.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In a biased defence of the KWVR a full line return is £15. So that is what our cost per mile is. If you get a rover surely the intention is to do two round trips halfing the price per mile.

Does that actually half the price, per mile? Full line return = £15. Rover is £22. Ballpark 10 miles there and back from Oxenhope to Keighley. Full line return option costs £1.50 per mile. The Rover option (if it's 2 round trips) is £1.10 per mile. That's not half the price per mile, unless I'm missing something. But it's still fairly decent value.

 

[12C]

I appreciate it’s not popular with everyone, but the NYMR’s annual ticket has the potential to be by far the cheapest per mile, as long as you live locally and can make the most of it.

In an extreme example, you could pay your £49.50, and visit every day for the railway’s roughly 200 operating days and make at least 2 return Pickering-Whitby trips at 48 miles each round trip. If my maths are correct this would give the potential for over 19,000 miles of travel a year at under 0.25p per mile.

So potentially, the NYMR probably beats them all. A different story in reality though for people who can only visit once a year!

 

[YorkshireBear]

Does that actually half the price, per mile? Full line return = £15. Rover is £22. Ballpark 10 miles there and back from Oxenhope to Keighley. Full line return option costs £1.50 per mile. The Rover option (if it's 2 round trips) is £1.10 per mile. That's not half the price per mile, unless I'm missing something. But it's still fairly decent value.

Appreciate it was badly worded. But I was suggesting that a rover should actually be stated as £1.10 per mile as opposed to £2.20. Because by default you should be intending to do more than one round trip. For the purpose of this thread, KWVR is £1.50 per mile as you say.

Yes agreed it is not half the price of the full line return.

Still not sure I've explained myself well there.

 

[Falcon1200]

I appreciate it’s not popular with everyone, but the NYMR’s annual ticket has the potential to be by far the cheapest per mile, as long as you live locally and can make the most of it.

The number of visits per year is the key factor!

Living in the West of Scotland, I have only visited the NYMR on 3 occasions. The first was a day trip, which entailed getting up at the crack of dawn, driving to Edinburgh for the first train to Darlington, on to Middlesbrough and then Grosmont; And I only had time for one return journey, for which, if I had no plans to visit again in the year, £49.50 would seem excessive. Subsequent trips were for a Steam and then Diesel Gala, requiring a two-night stay in a Middlesbrough hotel, however given the number and variety of locos, both home and visiting, the same fare would be reasonable, and expected.

 

[duffield]

In a biased defence of the KWVR a full line return is £15. So that is what our cost per mile is. If you get a rover surely the intention is to do two round trips halfing the price per mile.

The other plus about the KWVR for me (I visited on Monday, my third or fourth visit) is that it actually feels longer due to the number of stations, but you can also fit in more trips up and down in the same time. Also there are some good pubs in Haworth, not far from the station, if you don't mind the short but steep hill.

Monday actually turned out to be an ideal day to visit despite it being August and school holidays - it was lively but not snided out, both on the trains and in Haworth.

Anyhow, I felt I got excellent value for my rover (though it'll be nice to see Keighley without the scaffolding again when the work in progress is complete).

 

[xotGD]

The other plus about the KWVR for me (I visited on Monday, my third or fourth visit) is that it actually feels longer due to the number of stations, but you can also fit in more trips up and down in the same time. Also there are some good pubs in Haworth, not far from the station, if you don't mind the short but steep hill.

Monday actually turned out to be an ideal day to visit despite it being August and school holidays - it was lively but not snided out, both on the trains and in Haworth.

Anyhow, I felt I got excellent value for my rover (though it'll be nice to see Keighley without the scaffolding again when the work in progress is complete).

A Day Rover also gives complimentary entry to the museums at Ingrow.

Of course, if you are in the museum, you aren't getting another round trip in.

 

[secretlondon]

To "screw" any particular group of customers rather implies to me that you are looking for personal gain or profit. The reality is that the NYMR is attempting to survive in changed circumstances. Most of the people there are giving their time or efforts for free so you can enjoy your (in your eyes) expensive day out.
I was guard with a driver from the NYMR on my last K&ESR turn. He showed me a advert for a paid post at Grosmont for a multi disciplined railway operator. The salary quoted was so low that anybody applying would be doing so with the knowledge that they would be making a considerable personal sacrifice to get the job.
Im afraid that some people in the railway enthusiast "industry" really need a bit of a reality check.

It stopped me travelling as I thought I was subsidising locals.

 

[paul1609]

It stopped me travelling as I thought I was subsidising locals.

I dont know if any figures exist for the NYMR but the Ffestiniog WHR has lost around 36k passengers per year between 2019 and 2023 with the adoption of the experience model. However it has nearly halved the marginal costs of running its trains which makes the business sustainable in 2023 wheras the 2019 traditional timetable was not.
Different heritage railways need different models but personally Id say that probably around 90% of railways will need to move to a model away from the traditional pre 2019 "public transportesque" model of a timetable with single and return fares. A lot are already on the move to some sort of hybrid model. Some are reluctant to change and are now beginning to experience a difficult financial situation. Its difficult to see where the industry as a whole will finish. Id be the first to acknowledge that some enthusiasts find these facts hard to understand and accept but Im afraid that the underlying facts are undeniable.

 

[Titfield]

Economics is a harsh mistress. My concern about some heritage railways is that the amount of money they need to generate from all sources other than farebox revenue is climbing relentlessly. Legacies and donations can only plug the gap for so long.

 

[John Luxton]

I dont know if any figures exist for the NYMR but the Ffestiniog WHR has lost around 36k passengers per year between 2019 and 2023 with the adoption of the experience model. However it has nearly halved the marginal costs of running its trains which makes the business sustainable in 2023 wheras the 2019 traditional timetable was not.
Different heritage railways need different models but personally Id say that probably around 90% of railways will need to move to a model away from the traditional pre 2019 "public transportesque" model of a timetable with single and return fares. A lot are already on the move to some sort of hybrid model. Some are reluctant to change and are now beginning to experience a difficult financial situation. Its difficult to see where the industry as a whole will finish. Id be the first to acknowledge that some enthusiasts find these facts hard to understand and accept but Im afraid that the underlying facts are undeniable.

I can't say I have been a great fan of the experience model, well not as it was first operated.

Things have improved this year as a base timetable is available which makes the service much more userfriently as one can now more easily use it for public transport.

All I would like to see is that the base timetable is now posted on a board at all stations and halts which would enable people to use it for public transport if they wanted to as my observations yesterday showed that some people are still clearly using it in public transport mode.

I took the morning train from Porthmadog to Caernarfon heading north I was amazed at just how many people were waiting for the train at Meilionnen Camp Site Station between Beddgelert and Rhyd Ddu. Probably about 30.

Most seemed to board except for a few who were probably waiting for the southbound service to Porthmadog. On the way back quite a few alighted at Meilionnen but not as many as those who boarded northbound suggested some single journeys sold (or they missed the train ). Train also stopped at Play-y-Nant northbound to let a walker off.

I can now see that Experience models can work if the basic timetable is also advertised - but this is where FWHR need to up the game get a timetable posted at every station.

Print out that PDF file as an A3 poster. Also make the file much more obvious on the train services page.

Not at the bottom of the page but at the top so one seens it when going to the timetable page.

Loadings wise north bound train seemed quiet well loaded the two Pullman GLASLYN and the recently recommissioned BODYSGALLEN were almost full. I think there were two empty seats on the retunr run as two pax only went one way. I was on BODYSGALLEN I think there was only one other life member present thus everyone else was forking out £93 - £99 and many had booked the afternoon cream tea for the return trip.

The southbound train passed at Rhyd Ddu did not seem as well loaded as the northbound. Quite a few empty seats. Summer Saturdays are probably not the best of days to judge loadings overall as it is for many "chang over day".

 

[D Williams]

Sadly, many heritage railways will have another round of cost-cutting when coping with the lean months after xmas. How many appeals to "keep the railway open etc" were made this year and how many have met their target?

 

[renegademaster]

While spa valley isn't the longest in the world , they are very cheap compared to the other ones in the south-east

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Not clear whether you mean the Ffestiniog fare included the parking, or whether it was extra?

Although the FR does have a car park at Harbour Station, it is very small. However, they do have another larger car park (behind the main town public car park) that is free for FR and WHR passengers.

There are cheaper ways to travel on the Ffestiniog Railway connecting from the Conwy Valley line. An anytime SDR from Llandudno to Porthmadog

Llandudno - MINFF/PTHMDG FR (2484 - H074)

is just £33.10 (or £21.80 with railcard).

And the Ffestiniog round robin, e.g from Chester out via Llandudno Junction & Blaenau Ffestiniog returning via Machynlleth & Shrewsbury

Chester - FFEST ROINDROBIN (2412 - J293)

is a snip at £44.30 (or £29.20 with railcard).

 

[notverydeep]

A great deal of the discussion on this thread can be explained by what economists refer to as, 'the illusion of money' (or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_illusion). Basically this holds that in times of high inflation, many people's concept of value does not adjust quickly and thus they their expectations of what they should be able to buy for a given amount come adrift from reality. Thus a £20 pound fare on a heritage railway seems a lot more expensive than a £15 fare in 2020, when 'in real terms', i.e adjusted for inflation (RPI February 2020 to July 2024 - £16 if you prefer CPI), it is the same. This sense will be amplified if (as will be the case for many), their income has not increased by the same amount over the same period (and has in real terms at least been cut)...

 

[Titfield]

A great deal of this thread can be explained by what economists refer to as, 'the illusion of money' (or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_illusion). Basically this holds that in times of high inflation, many people's concept of value does not adjust quickly and thus they their expectations come adrift from reality. This means that a £20 pound fare seems a lot more expensive than a £16 fare in 2020, when 'in real terms', i.e adjusted for inflation, it is the same.

Yes and of course there is the constant drip feed of the "cost of living crisis" by the BBC, Trussel trust and others reinforcing the belief that things are bad.

 

[paul1609]

I can't say I have been a great fan of the experience model, well not as it was first operated.

Things have improved this year as a base timetable is available which makes the service much more userfriently as one can now more easily use it for public transport.

All I would like to see is that the base timetable is now posted on a board at all stations and halts which would enable people to use it for public transport if they wanted to as my observations yesterday showed that some people are still clearly using it in public transport mode.

I took the morning train from Porthmadog to Caernarfon heading north I was amazed at just how many people were waiting for the train at Meilionnen Camp Site Station between Beddgelert and Rhyd Ddu. Probably about 30.

Most seemed to board except for a few who were probably waiting for the southbound service to Porthmadog. On the way back quite a few alighted at Meilionnen but not as many as those who boarded northbound suggested some single journeys sold (or they missed the train ). Train also stopped at Play-y-Nant northbound to let a walker off.

I can now see that Experience models can work if the basic timetable is also advertised - but this is where FWHR need to up the game get a timetable posted at every station.

Print out that PDF file as an A3 poster. Also make the file much more obvious on the train services page.

Not at the bottom of the page but at the top so one seens it when going to the timetable page.

Loadings wise north bound train seemed quiet well loaded the two Pullman GLASLYN and the recently recommissioned BODYSGALLEN were almost full. I think there were two empty seats on the retunr run as two pax only went one way. I was on BODYSGALLEN I think there was only one other life member present thus everyone else was forking out £93 - £99 and many had booked the afternoon cream tea for the return trip.

The southbound train passed at Rhyd Ddu did not seem as well loaded as the northbound. Quite a few empty seats. Summer Saturdays are probably not the best of days to judge loadings overall as it is for many "chang over day".

Meilionnen is the station for Forest Holidays Beddgelert where you sell lucrative Harbourmaster Experiences from Beddgelert https://fareharbor.com/embeds/book/...=en-gb&u=7460e83a-5235-468e-9fcf-dcadba281c97.
The mid afternoon return allows the customers to return to Beddgelert village for a Pymms before a 40 min walk back to the hot tub in their log cabin.
The idea is to sell as many of the seats on the train to experience customers so there may not be room for train enthusiasts and walkers turning up for a short hop. If you have to have a base turntable you don't want to publicise it for those reasons.

 

[nanstallon]

There are cheaper ways to travel on the Ffestiniog Railway connecting from the Conwy Valley line. An anytime SDR from Llandudno to Porthmadog

Llandudno - MINFF/PTHMDG FR (2484 - H074)

is just £33.10 (or £21.80 with railcard).

And the Ffestiniog round robin, e.g from Chester out via Llandudno Junction & Blaenau Ffestiniog returning via Machynlleth & Shrewsbury

Chester - FFEST ROINDROBIN (2412 - J293)

is a snip at £44.30 (or £29.20 with railcard).

Are these accidental survivals from a past (pre-COVID) era? What happens if you have one of these tickets and find the FR train to be full?

I got up very early to catch the 07.10 bus from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog (£2), then after DIY breakfast at Morrisons, anytime DR from BF to Llandudno (£10.20 - even less if you have a Railcard), and back to BF, where after a pint in the bar of the Queen's Hotel, I was able to buy a single ticket to Porthmadog (£11.50 with discount for being a member of the Talyllyn Railway). The bus journey was very scenic, as was the Conwy Valley line and of course the Ffestiniog. All very satisfactory.

 

[John Luxton]

Are these accidental survivals from a past (pre-COVID) era? What happens if you have one of these tickets and find the FR train to be full?

I got up very early to catch the 07.10 bus from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog (£2), then after DIY breakfast at Morrisons, anytime DR from BF to Llandudno (£10.20 - even less if you have a Railcard), and back to BF, where after a pint in the bar of the Queen's Hotel, I was able to buy a single ticket to Porthmadog (£11.50 with discount for being a member of the Talyllyn Railway). The bus journey was very scenic, as was the Conwy Valley line and of course the Ffestiniog. All very satisfactory.

each FWHR train has one carriage reserved for hop on hop offs. I don't think anyone would be left behind but you might if it was really busy have to stand.

 

[WAB]

When I was younger, I fed my friends and family a diet of the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland. The charm of the vintage carriages, the good catering options, the interest of the origins and destinations, the excitement of the fast-paced run (25mph feels a lot faster on narrow gauge) and the varied scenery along the lines appealed to them greatly, and justified the higher fares. They've felt let down when I drag them along to many other heritage railways in comparison.

 

[nanstallon]

While spa valley isn't the longest in the world , they are very cheap compared to the other ones in the south-east

£10 adult, £9 senior is very fair for a simple day return over the whole line; note that break of journey is not allowed unless you have a rover.

 

[peteb]

Not a "heritage railway", but a "heritage train" of preserved rolling stock and steam locomotives operating on the mainline: Vintage Trains' "The Shakespeare Express" is £15 for an adult return Sunday afternoon trip from Stratford-on-Avon to Birmingham and straight back again. That's about 60 miles or 25p a mile. Runs at up to 75mph too!!

 

[eldomtom2]

I dont know if any figures exist for the NYMR but the Ffestiniog WHR has lost around 36k passengers per year between 2019 and 2023 with the adoption of the experience model. However it has nearly halved the marginal costs of running its trains which makes the business sustainable in 2023 wheras the 2019 traditional timetable was not.
Different heritage railways need different models but personally Id say that probably around 90% of railways will need to move to a model away from the traditional pre 2019 "public transportesque" model of a timetable with single and return fares. A lot are already on the move to some sort of hybrid model. Some are reluctant to change and are now beginning to experience a difficult financial situation. Its difficult to see where the industry as a whole will finish. Id be the first to acknowledge that some enthusiasts find these facts hard to understand and accept but Im afraid that the underlying facts are undeniable.

The Ffestiniog is very much an outlier - from a quick browse of the major heritage railways besides it they all advertise returns or day rovers rather than the "experiences" of the Ffestiniog and all make their timetables easily available. The Ffestiniog/WHR's economics are heavily affected by its sheer length, at least in my opinion.

 

[WAB]

The Ffestiniog is very much an outlier - from a quick browse of the major heritage railways besides it they all advertise returns or day rovers rather than the "experiences" of the Ffestiniog and all make their timetables easily available. The Ffestiniog/WHR's economics are heavily affected by its sheer length, at least in my opinion.

And the gradients involved, too.

 

[Vespa]

The Ffestiniog is very much an outlier - from a quick browse of the major heritage railways besides it they all advertise returns or day rovers rather than the "experiences" of the Ffestiniog and all make their timetables easily available. The Ffestiniog/WHR's economics are heavily affected by its sheer length, at least in my opinion.

How long does it take to get from one end to the other at 13 miles ?

Welsh Highland Railway seemed much longer at 25 miles end to end presumably much longer.

I also believe there is a rival Welsh Highland Railway operating too.

What's the cost of each and best value for their experience ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How long does it take to get from one end to the other at 13 miles ?

Typically timetabled this year to take 1 hr 15 mins (end to end) for the thirteen-and-a-half miles from Porthmadog to Blaenau Ffestiniog (i.e. uphill) or five minutes less at just 1 hr 10 mins in the reverse (downhill) direction.

 

[WAB]

Welsh Highland Railway seemed much longer at 25 miles end to end presumably much longer.

It's a 2.5 hour run each way.

I also believe there is a rival Welsh Highland Railway operating too.

The Welsh Highland Heritage Railway is a museum with a short running line attached.

What's the cost of each and best value for their experience ?

The Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog run is £46.
The Porthmadog - Caernarfon run is £66.

It all really depends on what you want out of your day. The short trips halfway on the FR to Tanybwlch don't do it for me as the rest of the run is more scenic, but it is cheaper, allows trips on the vintage compartment stock, and allows for walking in the woods/eating in the café/letting the kids play in the playground. In the same vein, I enjoy spending all day on the train and taking in all of the views on the WHR, but others may want a shorter trip and time to look around Beddgelert. I personally think the Porthmadog - Caernarfon run is the best value for money given what you get, but in absolute terms it is probably too pricey for a lot of people.

 

[peteb]

It's a 2.5 hour run each way.

The Welsh Highland Heritage Railway is a museum with a short running line attached.

The Porthmadog - Blaenau Ffestiniog run is £46.
The Porthmadog - Caernarfon run is £66.

It all really depends on what you want out of your day. The short trips halfway on the FR to Tanybwlch don't do it for me as the rest of the run is more scenic, but it is cheaper, allows trips on the vintage compartment stock, and allows for walking in the woods/eating in the café/letting the kids play in the playground. In the same vein, I enjoy spending all day on the train and taking in all of the views on the WHR, but others may want a shorter trip and time to look around Beddgelert. I personally think the Porthmadog - Caernarfon run is the best value for money given what you get, but in absolute terms it is probably too pricey for a lot of people.

Is it still possible to get a round robin travelling from say Crewe to Portmadog and back via FR and Bleanau Ffestiniog?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it still possible to get a round robin travelling from say Crewe to Portmadog and back via FR and Bleanau Ffestiniog?

Yes, that can be done using a Ffestiniog Round Robin ticket, costs £44.30 from Crewe, assumes/requires that all the travel is undertaken on the same day.

More info here...

Ffestiniog Round Robin | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Extract...

Ffestiniog Round Robin

Ffestiniog Round Robin offers a circular journey in either direction around the circuit between Shrewsbury - Chester - Llandudno Junction - Blaenau Ffestiniog - Machynlleth - Shrewsbury on Transport for Wales services, plus a single journey on the Ffestiniog Railway in the direction of travel.