Most expensive and cheapest heritage railway per mile ?

[43066]

That's interesting, but there are also diseconomies of scale. Think of the size and cost of the logistics network needed to keep Starbucks going all across the UK, including in some places off the beaten track, which has to be paid for. Starbucks probably has a lot of costs that Heritage Railways may be able to avoid depending on their set up. All things considered, I don't think there's going to be too big a difference, and it's going to be a decent revenue earner.

I’ll defer to @paul1609 re actual figures, but the obvious counter argument is that heritage railway tea rooms only serve customers of the railway, who will be enough to fill a few trains per day. That’s a tiny fraction of the numbers who queue up at the sorts of locations Starbucks will set up in. That’s despite the railway cafes having not insignificant fixed costs; especially if they’re paying minimum wage staff. Hence why, as noted above, the cafes may break even, or turn a modest profit if they can find volunteer labour.

They do need to offer refreshments, as otherwise people won’t visit, but this isn’t where the profit is generated. This is why we see heritage railways increasingly needing to charge top dollar for tickets, running Thomas and friends events, or specials where they can sell booze and food with tickets at £100+ per head.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2024 ==

The railway is still making a fortune on catering in those areas but the spend isn’t onboard, it’s at the bigger stations instead and it reaches the railway via rents rather than directly.

Bigger mainline stations which have massive footfall. It won’t translate to smaller heritage operations.

 

[DarloRich]

As I tried to get across upthread somewhere unless you can man the facilities entirely with volunteers casual secondary spend will not be the hugely profitable undertaking that you seem to think it will. The shops profitability was destroyed by the entry of Amazon to the railway book market where they were retailing the book on the day it was released at less than the price the heritage railway could buy it wholesale. What initially happened was that enthusiasts used the railways as a showroom for an Amazon purchase thumbing through the book making it unselable before replacing the book on the shelf and going home to buy it on Amazon. We only stock very few bargain books now as a consequence. We sell secondhand books in the railway museum as a fundraiser for future exhibit purchases. DVD sales have obviously ended with the move to streaming and you tube. As a consequence we now mostly sell childrens toys and clothing Jams and local beer products.
Catering has gone the same way. You bemoan the cost of the cup of tea but its not the cost of the tea bag and the milk thats reflected in the cost of your cuppa. Its the cost of the person whos there to serve it to you wash up the cup and clear the tables, their supervisor. The cost of meeting the local authorities health and hygene inspections. The cost of decorating and lighting the retail space. Once all thats been taken away the railway is left with litterally pennies.
Where you can make profits is in the likes of premium dining add ons and that is where many railways are now concentrating their efforts.
What all this means is that the traditional railway enthusiast who turns up with his flask and tesco value meal isnt really the railways or attractions prime customer anymore and is no longer worth trying to attract unless you can run a profitable specialist enthusiast event.
That is why you are seeing more and more railways offering the experience rather than the traditional timetable and why fares and ticketing are being loaded to a family day out rather than the single enthusiast looking for a bargain.

a good, sensible, informative and helpful post. Insert like icon here!

 

[DanNCL]

Is it much of a surprise that a railway run using a diesel railbus is cheaper than those using steam?

The surprise isn’t that they’re cheaper than steam lines but rather just how much cheaper they are.

 

[nanstallon]

In Cornwall, the Bodmin and Wenford Rly (or the Bodmin Railway, I'm not sure which is correct these days)has extended its refreshment facilities beyond its main station at Bodmin General. It has, through a subsidiary company, run a buffet in the old signal box at Bodmin Parkway on the main line for many years, and now also runs a buffet at Liskeard and Penzance main line stations. Presumably, there is some money to be made in selling refreshments.

Personally, I can't be bothered to look for a supermarket doing cheaper sandwiches and/or meal deals, and carrying the stuff around all day, if I'm having a day out on the railway. But I do like the buffet facilities to look smart and welcoming. The Bodmin Railway has revamped same at Bodmin Parkway and General, and these fit in well with a family (or indeed a lone wolf) having a day out on the preserved railway.

 

[Julia]

Isle of Man railways take some beating, £21 for a day ticket or £59 for 7 days includes 15 miles on the steam railway, 13 miles on the electric railway, 5 miles on the snaefell mountain railway plus the Douglas horse trams, the groundle glen railway and the Lacy mine railway.

Also included are all buses on the island.

Indeed, and the steam railway is marginally quicker from Douglas to Port Erin seafront than the #1/#2 bus, and much more relaxing and comfortable than a Citaro!

 

[nanstallon]

I have just had a tour of North Wales, and fares were -
Ffestiniog whole line £46 for 12.5 miles, plus parking in public car park
Welsh Highland Rly whole line £66 for 25 miles, plus parking fees in nearby public car park
Talyllyn Rly whole line £25 (or a bit more for Gift Aid) for 7 miles, plus parking fees in public car park
Vale of Rheidol whole line £35 for 12 miles plus parking fee in their car park
Glos Warwickshire Rly (on the way home) whole line £26 (rover for the day) for 14.5 miles, with free parking in their own car park.

I noted that fares were often, if not always, charged for dogs. On the other hand, very low fares were charged for children, which would encourage families. I was surprised by the generosity of member concessions, which also sometimes apply on a 50% basis to members of nearby railway societies. My £30 p.a. subs to Talyllyn Railway entitled me to free travel on the Talyllyn itself and half fare on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways. I don't know whether there are limits on the number of free and/or half fare trips one can do. Of course, you don't have to claim the privileges!

 

[John Luxton]

I have just had a tour of North Wales, and fares were -
Ffestiniog whole line £46 for 12.5 miles, plus parking in public car park
Welsh Highland Rly whole line £66 for 25 miles, plus parking fees in nearby public car park
Talyllyn Rly whole line £25 (or a bit more for Gift Aid) for 7 miles, plus parking fees in public car park
Vale of Rheidol whole line £35 for 12 miles plus parking fee in their car park
Glos Warwickshire Rly (on the way home) whole line £26 (rover for the day) for 14.5 miles, with free parking in their own car park.

I noted that fares were often, if not always, charged for dogs. On the other hand, very low fares were charged for children, which would encourage families. I was surprised by the generosity of member concessions, which also sometimes apply on a 50% basis to members of nearby railway societies. My £30 p.a. subs to Talyllyn Railway entitled me to free travel on the Talyllyn itself and half fare on the Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways. I don't know whether there are limits on the number of free and/or half fare trips one can do. Of course, you don't have to claim the privileges!

Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland imposed a 10 journey limit on ordinary members from 2023. If you are an ordinary member of both that still means 10 free trips on each line. However, I think short line journeys are still free as membership numbers are only entered on a computer at principal stations. Life Members of WHRS and FRS still get free unlimited 1st Class travel. Though I note that life membership numbers are being recorded as I hold both and when I have turned up in person they are still put into the computer which suggests use is being monitored.

Some years ago there was a bit of a scandal uncovered by a vigilant booking clerk that some hotel and guest house proprietors had been joining and loaning out their membership cards to guests as a perk of their stay. As a consequence FRS membership cards now need a photo - not got round to doing that with WHRS cards yet but wouldn't be surprised if they do.

 

[nanstallon]

Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland imposed a 10 journey limit on ordinary members from 2023. If you are an ordinary member of both that still means 10 free trips on each line. However, I think short line journeys are still free as membership numbers are only entered on a computer at principal stations. Life Members of WHRS and FRS still get free unlimited 1st Class travel. Though I note that life membership numbers are being recorded as I hold both and when I have turned up in person they are still put into the computer which suggests use is being monitored.

Some years ago there was a bit of a scandal uncovered by a vigilant booking clerk that some hotel and guest house proprietors had been joining and loaning out their membership cards to guests as a perk of their stay. As a consequence FRS membership cards now need a photo - not got round to doing that with WHRS cards yet but wouldn't be surprised if they do.

It is sad to see membership privileges being abused. If you live locally, membership of the WHRS and FRS looks a pretty good deal anyway!

 

[John Luxton]

It is sad to see membership privileges being abused. If you live locally, membership of the WHRS and FRS looks a pretty good deal anyway!

The use by guest house and hotel proprietors was verging on fraud but I think there were more than a few locals who saw membership as more of a season ticket.

Somehow or other I don't think this attitude was discouraged in the past, either to be honest.

Always remember an elderly gent who nearly every time I visited boarded at the same station and went to Blaenau for his shopping. I guess he was a life member as he was always in first class.

Going from correspondence in the magazines there have been a few objections to the new restrictions in particular the withdrawl of the priviledge rate for an accompanying friend or family member.

Whilst I generally agree with the tightening up of the rules I am not so sure that those joining under the old T&Cs should be subject to the new rules as part of the incentive to join might have been the concessions. Personally I think the new rules should apply for new members joining after the decision was made to change the rules. I always have a thing about "changing the goalposts" accross a range of issues.

The old members will die out eventually and eventually everyone will be on the new T&Cs

 

[nanstallon]

The use by guest house and hotel proprietors was verging on fraud but I think there were more than a few locals who saw membership as more of a season ticket.

Somehow or other I don't think this attitude was discouraged in the past, either to be honest.

Always remember an elderly gent who nearly every time I visited boarded at the same station and went to Blaenau for his shopping. I guess he was a life member as he was always in first class.

Going from correspondence in the magazines there have been a few objections to the new restrictions in particular the withdrawl of the priviledge rate for an accompanying friend or family member.

Whilst I generally agree with the tightening up of the rules I am not so sure that those joining under the old T&Cs should be subject to the new rules as part of the incentive to join might have been the concessions. Personally I think the new rules should apply for new members joining after the decision was made to change the rules. I always have a thing about "changing the goalposts" accross a range of issues.

The old members will die out eventually and eventually everyone will be on the new T&Cs

Ethically, I agree that the railways should stick to the deal, but wasn't there anything in the original T&Cs about privileges being at the discretion of the company? Well, if not, there should have been!

 

[12LDA28C]

Glos Warwickshire Rly (on the way home) whole line £26 (rover for the day) for 14.5 miles, with free parking in their own car park.

Being pedantic, the Glos-Warks is just under 14 miles from end to end. Don't want to be 'fudging' your mileage!

 

[Belperpete]

I have just had a tour of North Wales, and fares were -
Ffestiniog whole line £46 for 12.5 miles, plus parking in public car park
Welsh Highland Rly whole line £66 for 25 miles, plus parking fees in nearby public car park
Talyllyn Rly whole line £25 (or a bit more for Gift Aid) for 7 miles, plus parking fees in public car park
Vale of Rheidol whole line £35 for 12 miles plus parking fee in their car park
Glos Warwickshire Rly (on the way home) whole line £26 (rover for the day) for 14.5 miles, with free parking in their own car park.

Not clear whether you mean the Ffestiniog fare included the parking, or whether it was extra?

Although the FR does have a car park at Harbour Station, it is very small. However, they do have another larger car park (behind the main town public car park) that is free for FR and WHR passengers.

 

[Krokodil]

Some years ago there was a bit of a scandal uncovered by a vigilant booking clerk that some hotel and guest house proprietors had been joining and loaning out their membership cards to guests as a perk of their stay. As a consequence FRS membership cards now need a photo - not got round to doing that with WHRS cards yet but wouldn't be surprised if they do.

Even before the limits were put in place, they were checking identities (it was either by checking the signature or matching the membership card to photo ID).

Going from correspondence in the magazines there have been a few objections to the new restrictions in particular the withdrawl of the priviledge rate for an accompanying friend or family member.

This annoyed me. I never travelled 10 times a year anyway, I'd have rather had three free journeys for two (so six tickets in total) than ten for one.

Academic anyway as I don't seem to have the time for volunteering any more, so I let my membership lapse.

 

[nanstallon]

Not clear whether you mean the Ffestiniog fare included the parking, or whether it was extra?

Although the FR does have a car park at Harbour Station, it is very small. However, they do have another larger car park (behind the main town public car park) that is free for FR and WHR passengers.

I wish that I had known that!

 

[John Luxton]

I wish that I had known that!

I think a lot of people are oblivious to its existance and it is also the far side of the main car park. I think many if they can't get in the Harbour Station Car Park, which can sometimes be restricted to blue badge holders only at busy times just park up in the main car park which is nearer to the station and pay.

There is free parking at Minffordd, Tanybwlch and Tanygrisiau Stations.

 

[Belperpete]

I wish that I had known that!

It is mentioned on the web-site. I think they are reluctant to put much signage up, because that would just lead to everyone trying to park there for free. However, the car park attendant at Harbour Station seems to spend most of his time directing people to it. I think if you don't register your car at the booking office, you get charged.

 

[WAB]

It is mentioned on the web-site. I think they are reluctant to put much signage up, because that would just lead to everyone trying to park there for free. However, the car park attendant at Harbour Station seems to spend most of his time directing people to it. I think if you don't register your car at the booking office, you get charged.

I believe it is also included in the booking confirmation emails if you book online.

 

[John Luxton]

It is mentioned on the web-site. I think they are reluctant to put much signage up, because that would just lead to everyone trying to park there for free. However, the car park attendant at Harbour Station seems to spend most of his time directing people to it. I think if you don't register your car at the booking office, you get charged.

I have never registered my car at the booking office and never been charged.

Turning the clock back many years it is a shame the railway was not able to secure South Snowdon Wharf as that would have made an excellent car park and also an ideal area for stabling stock.

 

[Dave S 56F]

Like to compare 2 that are just over 20 miles apart the keighley and worth valley r,ly offers 5 miles for £21 for a day rover where as the east lancs railway offers £23 for a rover on 12 miles of track.
I take it though sometimes the bonus on the K.V.W.R. is that the timetable can sometimes be a 2 train steam hauled service and on the wood vintage coaches ,Where as on the E.L.R. your getting plenty of milage for £23 it's diesel and steam as the east lancs did away with 2 steam train services which were the yellow timetable only on gala days or if the diners out running will you see more than 1 kettle steamed up at the E.L.R. but they do have some good diesel locos such as the class 40 or class 52 western hydraulic the class 42 warship and the class 35 hymec for the diesel services.

 

[nanstallon]

Like to compare 2 that are just over 10 miles apart the keighley and worth valley r,ly offers 5 miles for £21 for a day rover where as the east lancs railway offers £23 for a rover on 12 miles of track.
I take it though sometimes the bonus on the K.V.W.R. is that the timetable can sometimes be a 2 train steam hauled service and on the wood vintage coaches ,Where as on the E.L.R. your getting plenty of milage for £23 it's diesel and steam as the east lancs did away with 2 steam train services which were the yellow timetable only on gala days or if the diners out running will you see more than 1 kettle steamed up at the E.L.R. but they do have some good diesel locos such as the class 40 or class 52 western hydraulic the class 42 warship and the class 35 hymec for the diesel services.

Some people prefer the diesels, and I'd certainly go a long way for a diesel hydraulic.

 

[Belperpete]

Like to compare 2 that are just over 20 miles apart the keighley and worth valley r,ly offers 5 miles for £21 for a day rover where as the east lancs railway offers £23 for a rover on 12 miles of track.

I am not sure what all these comparisons of ticket price versus line length achieve. I suspect that they will almost always prove that a longer line is better value, other things being equal (diesel v steam, for example). Does that mean the shorter lines are not worth visiting?

A railway's costs are not directly proportional to it's length. Just because one line is say half the length of another, does not mean that it will cost half as much to run. There are a lot of fixed costs involved in firing up a steam loco, for example, regardless of how far it moves (boiler inspection and insurance, for example). So a line with a variety of locos available will have more overheads than one that runs with just the bare minimum.

 

[secretlondon]

I’ve stayed in Whitby and in Scarborough and not been to see the NYMR as the pricing upset me. It feels that I as a visitor is paying the same price for a single trip as a local is paying for a full year, and hence I’m being exploited to give locals cheap travel. £46 (but you can use it all year) left a really bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Titfield]

I’ve stayed in Whitby and in Scarborough and not been to see the NYMR as the pricing upset me. It feels that I as a visitor is paying the same price for a single trip as a local is paying for a full year, and hence I’m being exploited to give locals cheap travel. £46 (but you can use it all year) left a really bad taste in my mouth.

If you have not paid to travel on the NYMR then I do not see how you feel you have been exploited.

 

[Belperpete]

I’ve stayed in Whitby and in Scarborough and not been to see the NYMR as the pricing upset me. It feels that I as a visitor is paying the same price for a single trip as a local is paying for a full year, and hence I’m being exploited to give locals cheap travel. £46 (but you can use it all year) left a really bad taste in my mouth.

£46 seems a reasonable fare in this day and age. But I do wonder if this annual ticket gimmick doesn't lose as many customers as it gains. Would it be better selling it as just a day rover?

 

[secretlondon]

£46 seems a reasonable fare in this day and age. But I do wonder if this annual ticket gimmick doesn't lose as many customers as it gains. Would it be better selling it as just a day rover?

Yes the cost per mile is fine, better than the £20 for the KWVR. It just felt like they were screwing the tourists. I would only be using it once.

 

[paul1609]

£46 seems a reasonable fare in this day and age. But I do wonder if this annual ticket gimmick doesn't lose as many customers as it gains. Would it be better selling it as just a day rover?

Its not an annual ticket gimmick, it enables them to claim gift aid on the fare. the amount they claim on gift aid will more than offset the loss of the occasional customer especially as the summer Whitby trains are running full and standing.

 

[YorkshireBear]

In a biased defence of the KWVR a full line return is £15. So that is what our cost per mile is. If you get a rover surely the intention is to do two round trips halfing the price per mile.

 

[xotGD]

In a biased defence of the KWVR a full line return is £15. So that is what our cost per mile is. If you get a rover surely the intention is to do two round trips halfing the price per mile.

Two? At least four!

 

[paul1609]

Yes the cost per mile is fine, better than the £20 for the KWVR. It just felt like they were screwing the tourists. I would only be using it once.

To "screw" any particular group of customers rather implies to me that you are looking for personal gain or profit. The reality is that the NYMR is attempting to survive in changed circumstances. Most of the people there are giving their time or efforts for free so you can enjoy your (in your eyes) expensive day out.
I was guard with a driver from the NYMR on my last K&ESR turn. He showed me a advert for a paid post at Grosmont for a multi disciplined railway operator. The salary quoted was so low that anybody applying would be doing so with the knowledge that they would be making a considerable personal sacrifice to get the job.
Im afraid that some people in the railway enthusiast "industry" really need a bit of a reality check.

 

[Sunil_P]

North Bay Railway by contrast was just £5.50 return, £4 single.