Belperpete
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Is it much of a surprise that a railway run using a diesel railbus is cheaper than those using steam?
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Most expensive and cheapest heritage railway per mile ?
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Railfan, I believe the Spas standard day rover ticket is £15?
Both correct.
£10 adult return (no BOJ allowed)
£15 rover.
When it comes down to £ per mile, need to compare like for like i.e. rover with rover, etc., or , use the cheapest possible fare, which Railfan has.
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tram21
Established Member
The general offer for guests should involve three trams in service throughout the day, however occasionally it's 2 due to a lack of volunteers. However on big event days there's 4 or 5 trams out in service!
duffield
Established Member
That's not comparing like with like though, my figure was for how many miles of railway you get per pound regardless of how many trips up and down you make. For one return trip the GCR would be £1.50 per mile rather than £3.
4 or 5 makes a 'big event day' ?
hhhmmmmmm .........
I am sure there will be a back lash of comment but that is hardly going to entice me there. Whatever the reason, lack of operational trams, lack of volunteer crew, 4-5 hardly seems "big" on anyones scale.
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bluegoblin7
Established Member
Indeed.
Let’s inject some facts, without any emotion: Crich, like many organisations, relies on volunteers to operate the trams. It is directly competing with the likes of the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway, Peak Rail, MRC and indirectly with the Heights of Abraham, Gulliver’s and arguably even Alton Towers. The Peak is a very crowded space, and unlike most of the attractions listed Crich has poor road connections (one of the main routes has been closed for some years now) and even worse public transport (I think I’m particularly qualified to comment as a volunteer who relies on public transport to get there!).
When the Museum can’t even kick out the “Daily Offer” of three trams on one of the warmest weekends of the year (yesterday there were only two running) it does take some convincing that an annual entry ticket of over £20 is value for money, for a journey of around 20 minutes, which potentially is only going to be done a couple of times a day (even as tram crew it can get very tedious doing it several times a day on the same vehicle). For comparison (although I don’t have mileages to hand), EVR is £19.50 day rover, Peak Rail £15 and MRC £17.50 - all for a weekend booked in advance, as that’s the easiest comparator. Crich comes out as the most expensive at £23. Accepted that is the only “annual” ticket (and for the record with my Museums hat on I am a big fan of these sorts of offers as they can generate significant secondary spend that outweighs the perceived revenue loss), but visitors to an area - the main source of traffic - are unlikely to return within a year. That leaves locals who are themselves unlikely to generate that secondary spend.
Trams are a niche within a niche. They’re my niche, for sure, but I can also see that they don’t appeal to as many as trains. I would suggest people give them a chance as they can be just as ‘loud’ as anything else, but they’re also very different. And, even then, why would you go to Crich when you can get a better value for money experience (imo) at Beamish or even along the tramway in Blackpool. Both have more than 2 and often more than “4 or 5” trams out on ordinary (Beamish) or enthusiast (Blackpool) days, which are the most comparable.
More so - why come to Crich on any other day than the annual Tram Weekend (where all the operational fleet plus a number of engineering vehicles are in use) when it’s the same price regardless? And even that has shrunk significantly over the last decade. Given the ongoing infrastructure challenges you would be hard pressed to actually get a round trip on every vehicle on those event days too.
Everyone is going to advocate for their own organisation, but a healthy dose of realism as well as visiting others to compare and contrast really is needed. Likewise, what constitutes “value for money” is going to drastically differ between individuals as this thread is demonstrating.
For me personally I don’t think it gets much better than the Keighley & Worth Valley. At £22 walk-up, on the day you get unlimited travel along what I consider to be the exemplar “quintessential British branch line”. Neatly turned out rolling stock, something to do at every station, a journey not-too-long and ample opportunity to sample both trains in service on two-train working. I visit multiple times per year and, before becoming a member, would regularly spend full fare every time. I’d never consider doing the same for Crich (notwithstanding my Life Membership, which is more to support the Society than actually visit the place).
....... agreed.
My only slight comment there is about the secondary spend - as I posted upthread, I have cut my personal secondary spend e.g. bring along a supermarket 'meal deal' rather than buy at site; having never been to Crich I have zilch idea what food oppurtunity there is there, but, if prices rank with other heritage railway sites. I do understand, indeed know, secondary spend is an important revenue generator everywhere, indeed might even be the prime generator at one or two, but, for me, food and drink is not actually the reason I am at the site in the first place,
One of the great features of the Swanage diesel galas - or at least was, 2019 my last time - could buy a multi day tea top up - buy the right gala tea mug from the right outlet, and you could top up for free at any outlet on the line, with a system of marker dots on the mug bottom. Now that adds up - I'd willingly pay a high-er travel fee for a day rover somewhere if that type of facility were on offer. And I get a series of mugs for home use. Its peanuts cost to the vendor, but got me and others back and back again to the tea outlets which then picked up sandwich, rolls and other sales. (I am not a major beer drinker on galas; well not even a minor beer drinker LOL at galas.)
Not being in the family day out scheme of things, I had not considered Crich in the light of other transport and non transport venues in its locality.
As an aside, as someone asked me recently***, but the trolleybus place near Doncaster name escapes me right now, how many buses do they turn out on a normal non-event operating weekend ?
*** for some reason pub wibble got around to turntables and I mentioned I can remember seeing the trolleybus turntable at Christchurch working - which automatically led to the assumption I must be a trolley bus crank.
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As I tried to get across upthread somewhere unless you can man the facilities entirely with volunteers casual secondary spend will not be the hugely profitable undertaking that you seem to think it will. The shops profitability was destroyed by the entry of Amazon to the railway book market where they were retailing the book on the day it was released at less than the price the heritage railway could buy it wholesale. What initially happened was that enthusiasts used the railways as a showroom for an Amazon purchase thumbing through the book making it unselable before replacing the book on the shelf and going home to buy it on Amazon. We only stock very few bargain books now as a consequence. We sell secondhand books in the railway museum as a fundraiser for future exhibit purchases. DVD sales have obviously ended with the move to streaming and you tube. As a consequence we now mostly sell childrens toys and clothing Jams and local beer products.
Catering has gone the same way. You bemoan the cost of the cup of tea but its not the cost of the tea bag and the milk thats reflected in the cost of your cuppa. Its the cost of the person whos there to serve it to you wash up the cup and clear the tables, their supervisor. The cost of meeting the local authorities health and hygene inspections. The cost of decorating and lighting the retail space. Once all thats been taken away the railway is left with litterally pennies.
Where you can make profits is in the likes of premium dining add ons and that is where many railways are now concentrating their efforts.
What all this means is that the traditional railway enthusiast who turns up with his flask and tesco value meal isnt really the railways or attractions prime customer anymore and is no longer worth trying to attract unless you can run a profitable specialist enthusiast event.
That is why you are seeing more and more railways offering the experience rather than the traditional timetable and why fares and ticketing are being loaded to a family day out rather than the single enthusiast looking for a bargain.
On my visit a couple of weeks ago the guy serving pints in the Old Dairy taproom said they’ve ended beer production on site at Tenterden station, at least partly due to Covid and the current state of the economy, but are hoping to bring it back as demand returns. That was positive to hear as the brewery market has been absolutely decimated over the last few years with many closing permanently.
Definitely a draw for “normals” to the railway - enough to persuade my non enthusiast mate to join on a visit!
The Old Dairy "brewing" company went in to administration in 2022 blaming I think Brexit at the time. The Tap is now owned by a hospitality company who bought it from the Administrators. I went to see a live band there a couple of weeks ago it has a very barn dance feel to it now the brewerys been stripped out.
The railways own label beers are brewed by the Rother Valley Brewing Co https://www.rothervalleybrewery.co.uk/index.html who are next to the railway at Northiam. The relationship pre-dates Old Dairy by some years. We also sell Romney Marsh Brewery products https://romneymarshbrewery.com/ in our shop.
We have also hosted the Ashford & Romney Branch of Camra beer festival at Tenterden Town Station for many years, unfortunately I was the night train guard this year!
I am sure more than a few users in here who know me are unlikely to categorise
my interests as 'traditional' 
I think the last time I had a flask anywhere I was at school which was some time in the 1970s.
Quite apart from that, if you read upthread, I already commented that I am one in a position of a reasonably well paid job and who once did secondary spend on the railway(s) but been pushed away from it because of that pricing. But I am not going to pay double, triple, the high street odds when by just crossing that high street I get a much better deal. I am the the consumer I have to pay. I am not talking a few pence of a few % here, it really is double, triple, or more.
In plain English - and this applies to at least 4 railways I can name - why am I going to pay £4.50 or more for some limited range of sandwiches, and just sandwiches, when about 200 m away there is a supermarket with a bigger choice of better sandwiches and get a quality drink ad a snack for less than £4 (and maybe even their loyalty card discount as well). Read any other item you like vice sandwiches.
And any family etc visitors with any sense will do the same, especially when for 3 of those 4 railways they more or less walk by the supermarket en route from the station car park if they came by car (which I suggest is likely).
If your argument is based on "we don't want enthusiasts" and "we want families with secondary spend" then please tell me how the present high prices are an attraction for families rather than a deterrent ? I am sure many other retail outlets would love to know your operating model on that one.
On the K&ESR we offer sandwiches pastas etc from a local supplier who in turn buys his ingredients from local companies. https://hawkhurstbreadshed.co.uk/ the products come pre-priced and are from under £3 to over £4. We get a delivery everyday around 11am and there is a good selection in the order, we order to sell out so the choice will go down as the afternoon progresses. Crisps come from the Sussex Crisp Company who are based a stones throw from the railway at Bodiam Station. https://www.sussexcrisps.com/. Beers mostly come from Rother Valley Brewing who are alongside the railway at Northiam, https://www.rothervalleybrewery.co.uk/ We sell wines from several local vinyards https://chapeldown.com as well as Biddenden Cider https://biddendenvineyards.com/. All supports the local economy and jobs. If we applied a price cap of £3.40 to compete with a Tesco Clubcard value Meal wed offer a long life sandwich from Bookers and unbranded soft drinks from a kiosk on the platform or possibly a refurbished BR vending machine.I am sure more than a few users in here who know me are unlikely to categorise
I think the last time I had a flask anywhere I was at school which was some time in the 1970s.
Quite apart from that, if you read upthread, I already commented that I am one in a position of a reasonably well paid job and who once did secondary spend on the railway(s) but been pushed away from it because of that pricing. But I am not going to pay double, triple, the high street odds when by just crossing that high street I get a much better deal. I am the the consumer I have to pay. I am not talking a few pence of a few % here, it really is double, triple, or more.
In plain English - and this applies to at least 4 railways I can name - why am I going to pay £4.50 or more for some limited range of sandwiches, and just sandwiches, when about 200 m away there is a supermarket with a bigger choice of better sandwiches and get a quality drink ad a snack for less than £4 (and maybe even their loyalty card discount as well). Read any other item you like vice sandwiches.
And any family etc visitors with any sense will do the same, especially when for 3 of those 4 railways they more or less walk by the supermarket en route from the station car park if they came by car (which I suggest is likely).
If your argument is based on "we don't want enthusiasts" and "we want families with secondary spend" then please tell me how the present high prices are an attraction for families rather than a deterrent ? I am sure many other retail outlets would love to know your operating model on that one.
Thanks, great information. He did show us the area where the brewery used to be and it looked a little sad. The tap room is a little ramshackle but decent enough - and with a decent range of beers and ciders offered. It’s good that the railway supports other local businesses. Chapel Down is a big concern these days and has their wines in Waitrose.
Because the sort of middle classy families who go to heritage railways will pay for the convenience, and will expect more than Tesco value meals or similar. They will want decent quality stuff and increasingly veggie/vegan options. Expectations have moved on and most competing visitor attractions now offer much higher standards of catering than was the case twenty or thirty years ago, as well as a £20-£30 entry fee per adult, or perhaps £60+ for a family ticket. It’s expensive “doing” tourist attractions in the UK, but there are people ready and willing to pay, and these are who the railways need to attract.
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Belperpete
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If everyone applied that logic, there would be no cafes or restaurants. No cafe is going to be able to compete with a supermarket meal deal.
Some people prefer a "proper" meal eaten in congenial surroundings, not some cheap and nasty supermarket sandwiches eaten on the train. Buying the supermarket sandwiches involves pre planning, and I think there is an element of impulse buying. Also, I think families (and others) on a day out tend to have looser purse strings, and are prepared to pay more than they would normally. It is an occasion, a time to enjoy yourself, not to be stingy.
Anyway, if the railway catering outlet is busy, they are obviously getting it right. If it isn't, it won't survive.
43096
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It also isn't something unique to preserved railways, catering prices are pretty similar at almost any visitor attraction. When you look at the costs involved - and without the benefits that the likes of Tesco have with the scale of their business - it's not unreasonable.
Your later posts seem to conflict with that.
If it is but pennies why are you doing it ?
Anyway, So I go along to your preserved railway.
I have £20 for secondary spend.
You sell me during the day two cups of tea for £3 each - costs me £6 and you get 'a few pennies' profit. Let's say I am there all day without a meal break so have 2 lots of sandwiches - that is £9 from some I know. And I want a bottle of drink, say another £3. An all you have made from it is pennies. Probably barely £1 in all if you really mean pennies.
I have now spent £18. Now I have £2 left for you, and that won't cover a choc ice these days as they all seem to be in high £2-xx range these days.
If I go to Tesco, pick up 2 meal deals, £7-20 with my card, I have got me probably better and certainly more choice sandwiches AND two bottles of drink AND two some other snack; and there is all the veggie / vegan / no-gluten choice too. I have spent £7-20 outside true - but now I have £12-80 left; I can buy my choc ice off you, and I still got £10 left to spend on you.
That is my arithmetic.
Any sensible family will do the same and multiply those numbers by the headcount.
What do you want - me spend £20 and you get a few multiples of pennies, or I spend £7-8 outside leaving me £12-13 for say, as one railway does, an on the spot cab ride - which is all direct revenue - or possibly a f.c. upgrade - or (another railway) observation car upgrade, again all direct revenue.
Don't tell me it don't work that way; I been doing it for several midweek and weekend heritage line visits each year ever since covid recovery. The railways have had more books, new and 2nd hand, and other spend off me than ever they had before in that direction - I'm just not doing it on their food any more.
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With respect this is a rather myopic view. There are many perfectly sensible families who will spend a great deal more on days out than you will spend on a Tesco value deal. As a frugal lone enthusiast you are not the target market for heritage railways. Keep in mind that, while most visitors will want food, relatively few will be buying books on railway history. Again this is a limited market and catered for by Amazon these days, as alluded to above.
@paul1609 ‘s heritage railway is in an affluent area of Kent and will attract people who are willing to spend money, so long as the quality is there. They need to offer the same standards those visitors will expect from other attractions such as National Trust properties.
Iskra
Established Member
Most visitors probably visit one heritage railway per year and want to enjoy themselves fully while they are there, not scrimp and save so that they can also afford to visit X other heritage railways too. They probably don't want to carry around a day worth of supplies for a family either.
I'm not criticising the @D7666 approach, but it's not practical or enjoyable for everyone. Personally, I usually provide my own beverages and snacks but will top up if needed and usually buy something more substantial from the railway involved such as a main meal.
I'm not criticising the @D7666 approach, but it's not practical or enjoyable for everyone. Personally, I usually provide my own beverages and snacks but will top up if needed and usually buy something more substantial from the railway involved such as a main meal.
Not frugality.
It is efficiency w.r.t. where the money ends up. Sure some ££ goes outside, but more of the balance of what is left goes to the railway directly, not lost in those overheads to support dipping tea bags in water.
The overall spend if anything is more. I am just not wasting it on their food.
If you do try and understand my calculation - and £20 is just an arbitrary number for the sake of it you can do this in any proportion you like - instead of spending ~£20 where the railways gets "pennies" I am spending ~£7/8 outside and £12/13 on more direct railway items; if I buy 2nd hand books that are almost certainly donations that is clear direct revenue. OK lets exclude books then on the Amazon and or not mainstream arguments, but instead a side museum with a fee or donation, or as I said an observation car ride (and that one sure is mainstream) that is direct revenue. It is all more effective use of my secondary cash, be it £2 or £20 or £50. In fact thinking about it £40 per day is more what I have been spending (including the supermarket food) if I add ale on the ends of the day at their outlets (where they do it).
It wasn't me who said their food outlets make pennies on teas. I am merely using that statement to prove why I do what I do is more effective overall in getting revenue to the railway - not to the health and safety / food hygene consultants needed to run these "pennies" tea shops.
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xotGD
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"I wouldn't go back there. There isn't even anywhere to buy a cup of tea!"
That's why they do refreshments.
That's why they do refreshments.
Iskra
Established Member
Just to point out the profit margin on tea is about 90%, so let’s not underestimate it as a revenue earner.
If railway’s don’t have their own catering outlets, that is money lost to them as people may not visit at all, or go elsewhere. Very few people are going to save money by-self catering and then choose to reinvest that money into the railway on discretionary spend. While I can see D7666’s logic, that’s simply not how the majority choose to spend their cash.
If railway’s don’t have their own catering outlets, that is money lost to them as people may not visit at all, or go elsewhere. Very few people are going to save money by-self catering and then choose to reinvest that money into the railway on discretionary spend. While I can see D7666’s logic, that’s simply not how the majority choose to spend their cash.
a.n.other poster suggested that teas made only pennies which suggests rather less than 9p in the pound
I happen to agree with you though - methinks 90p in the pound is more like it - and suggest largely profit
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Tea might be 90% profit at Starbucks, but I wouldn’t imagine it’d be anything approaching that at a heritage railway tea room.
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Similar reason why TOCs offer refreshments even though they often run at a loss. It's a loss leader.
Iskra
Established Member
Can you explain why?
Economies of scale.
Iskra
Established Member
That's interesting, but there are also diseconomies of scale. Think of the size and cost of the logistics network needed to keep Starbucks going all across the UK, including in some places off the beaten track, which has to be paid for. Starbucks probably has a lot of costs that Heritage Railways may be able to avoid depending on their set up. All things considered, I don't think there's going to be too big a difference, and it's going to be a decent revenue earner.
It's because the fixed costs salaries, insurance, compliance with legislation, heating, lighting cost of equipment etc are shared out between far fewer cups of tea at a heritage railway than they are at Starbucks.
The typical heritage railway cafe unless the station is in a town centre will only be open on days that trains are running. It will generally only be viable to open around 30 mins before the first train and will close as soon as the last train departs. Returning passengers don't generally purchase refreshments unless it's ice creams which can be sold in the retail shop.
The mark up on hot drinks will generally be higher than other goods but it will only anywhere near 90% if all the other fixed costs associated with providing the product are allocated elsewhere.
If the catering outlet is employing staff the operation is unlikely to be achieving much better than break even and the secondary spend is unlikely to be greatly supporting the core railway function to a great extent.
A parallel with the mainline would be the withdrawal of catering trolleys on nearly every service in the south and the reduction of secondary Intercity services from a buffet/ shop to a trolley service. If the profit on every cup of tea was 90% surely that wouldn't have happened?
Iskra
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The first part of your argument is reasonable, however the comparison with mainline catering isn’t particularly valid as I’d argue that’s got a lot more to do with the rise of station convenience catering outlets than anything to do with profitability. The railway is still making a fortune on catering in those areas but the spend isn’t onboard, it’s at the bigger stations instead and it reaches the railway via rents rather than directly.
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