Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[TEW]

The crewing of them at the moment is incredibly inefficient, using at least 4 (quite possibly 5) and 2 guards on top of the usual day to day requirement. Given there are generally less crew available on the weekend it wouldn't make sense to run them on a weekend. I believe the drivers involved may well only be working Monday to Friday at the moment too, basically full time on the 701 project.

If guards were closing the doors everywhere I suspect it's highly likely they'd be in service in much greater numbers now.

 

[Stephen42]

Whilst your points are valid, this specific rollout is taking a ridiculously long time. No doubt new and refurbished stock will always have a plethora of issues before coming into passenger service, and it's also normal they will also have faults for the first few months in passenger service.

However, comparing the rollouts of the 707s under SWR, which were also brand new trains, and more recently the 458/4s, the 701 rollout is far from gradual - it's sluggish. When the first 707 was launched under SWR, it did Waterloo-Windsor (same as 701s on their first day), except those ran back and forth all day, morning till night, compared to the measly 2-3 services in the daytime of the 701s. Even more concerning is that it took 6 months to introduce a new route for the 701s, which still uses the same unit as the morning Windsors. One has to wonder if that route would have even been introduced at all if not for the refurbishment of the 458/5s.

By comparison, within 3 weeks of the 707s debut under SWR, a new set of 707 diagrams were introduced, on an entirely different route, yet we are still left wondering when a 2nd diagram for the 701s will come to light. Similarly, the 458/4s have also had more runtime than the 701s, with three diagrams already in service since late June (and a fourth entering from Monday). Another point worth noting is that even though both 707s and 458/4s initial diagrams were only going to run on weekdays, both were able to run on event days and match days at Twickenham, when extra services are required on weekends. Correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen a single 701 run passenger service on weekends yet, even if it's just for a match day?

Even the testing of the 707s and 458/4s appeared far more rigorous and frequent than what we've seen with the 701s. The 707s, which had plenty of fault-free tests like the 701s, but also testing across different corners of the suburban network, whereas 701 testing seems to be confined mostly to the Windsor and Hounslow loops, with barely any testing elsewhere.

In many ways the rollout of the 701s hasn't started yet. The soft launch started before agreement of the driver or guard training for the main introduction into service. With standard driver training only starting recently this is more like the period before the first 707s were introduced. It's obviously not a model example of a rollout and once it actually gets going I'd still expect it to be relatively slow.

The 485/4s require a much shorter training period so the rollout is much easier and can go much faster as a result.

 

[Mikey C]

How have Southeastern managed to introduce the 707s so quickly, when it was a completely new train type to their area? They didn't seem to have any problems in training their drivers?

 

[NSEWonderer]

How have Southeastern managed to introduce the 707s so quickly, when it was a completely new train type to their area? They didn't seem to have any problems in training their drivers?

707s were DOO ready and most of the track as far as im aware had already been traveled by the similar Thameslink 700s.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

By comparison, within 3 weeks of the 707s debut under SWR, a new set of 707 diagrams were introduced, on an entirely different route,

Just for clarity the entire 707 introduction, including phased diagrams and final diagrams was worked up during 2015/2016 (under SWT) and was already in place and ready to go when the units themselves started to hit the rails during 2017.

 

[43096]

Just for clarity the entire 707 introduction, including phased diagrams and final diagrams was worked up during 2015/2016 (under SWT) and was already in place and ready to go when the units themselves started to hit the rails during 2017.

In other words, it was properly planned and managed by SWT. Unlike the situation with the Aventras!

 

[DMckduck]

When the guards inevitably close the doors on these full time in a year or so, there should be serious questions asked and also a lot of told you so.

With Shepperton the next line being routed tested, I wonder how many stations will fail DCO requirements.

 

[Goldfish62]

When the guards inevitably close the doors on these full time in a year or so, there should be serious questions asked and also a lot of told you so.

With Shepperton the next line being routed tested, I wonder how many stations will fail DCO requirements.

If that is the case the only serious questions should be about the competence of SWR management and why they failed to achieve what the Greater Anglia management achieved with full introduction of DCO across the entire network including at many deeply rural locations.

 

[DMckduck]

If that is the case the only serious questions should be about the competence of SWR management and why they failed to achieve what the Greater Anglia management achieved with full introduction of DCO across the entire network including at many deeply rural locations.

Guarantee you it happens though, it will be if not already is a massively failure.

But mark my words, no specific timeline or date but guards will close the doors

 

[Goldfish62]

Guarantee you it happens though, it will be if not already is a massively failure.

But mark my words, no specific timeline or date but guards will close the doors

Maybe the change of hands of SWR next May and a hopefully new senior management will instill some sanity and competence. Let's revisit in a year's time!

 

[Mikey C]

707s were DOO ready and most of the track as far as im aware had already been traveled by the similar Thameslink 700s.

The routes might have mainly been cleared, but none of the SE drivers had any experience of 707s or indeed any Desiro variants, and isn't driver training the main problem now with the 701s?

 

[43066]

707s were DOO ready and most of the track as far as im aware had already been traveled by the similar Thameslink 700s.

Actually 700s only cover a proportion of the SE metro area, and relatively few SE drivers ever signed them, but those routes have all been DOO since the early 90s (albeit with platform rather than in cab monitors).

The routes might have mainly been cleared, but none of the SE drivers had any experience of 707s or indeed any Desiro variants, and isn't driver training the main problem now with the 701s?

It sounds as though most of the issues with the 701s are to do with sighting/DOO clearance issues. Of course the SE 707 fleet is also a fraction of the size, which makes logistics in terms of releasing people to be trained far easier.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Actually 700s only cover a proportion of the SE metro area, and relatively few SE drivers ever signed them, but those routes have all been DOO since the early 90s (albeit with platform rather than in cab monitors).

So SE proved far more adept at getting a new train introduced which actually covers all its metro route so that was a lot of drivers that had to be trained up plus depot staff but they executed well. That team ought to be seconded to SWR for 18mths to work their magic there.

It sounds as though most of the issues with the 701s are to do with sighting/DOO clearance issues. Of course the SE 707 fleet is also a fraction of the size, which makes logistics in terms of releasing people to be trained far easier.

There really to do with management not driving through converting the metro operation to DOO and then weakened the unions just walked all over them so we've ended up with this convoluted situation. Anyhow for now getting the trains into use is the immediate priority as its an embarrassment that 1 billion pounds worth of trains is sitting idle on the hottest day of the year.

 

[43066]

So SE proved far more adept at getting a new train introduced which actually covers all its metro route so that was a lot of drivers that had to be trained up plus depot staff but they executed well. That team ought to be seconded to SWR for 18mths to work their magic there.

But a much smaller fleet, and of course only drivers to train up, with no basic change in the method of working, and infrastructure already geared up for DOO.

There really to do with management not driving through converting the metro operation to DOO and then weakened the unions just walked all over them so we've ended up with this convoluted situation. Anyhow for now getting the trains into use is the immediate priority as its an embarrassment that 1 billion pounds worth of trains is sitting idle on the hottest day of the year.

AIUI the proposed new method of working has long since been agreed by both unions, so that isn’t the issue.

It could be argued that the determination to remove guards entirely from the process despite the infrastructure/cameras clearly not being up to it needs to be revisited (and there are questions about why the issues weren’t known about and addressed at an earlier stage). Settling for driver open guard close might be a better approach to get the trains into service, even if it’s only for an interim period. @DMckduck97 ’s post above sounds like it might be worth revisiting in a year or so!

Agreed it’s a farce as it’s going to be over 30 degrees in London today. Ironically I’m hoping for a 707 on my journey to work later on the SE network!

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Maybe the change of hands of SWR next May and a hopefully new senior management

Ha, new management. We'll see if that happens or not. So many stories of them staying even through large franchise changes.
DfT has most of the control now anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things

 

[Meerkat]

With all our fancy IT know how couldn’t the DCO sighting issues have been modelled before introduction?
Or do it non-tech with a mock-up cab on a wagon!

 

[Goldfish62]

Ha, new management. We'll see if that happens or not. So many stories of them staying even through large franchise changes.
DfT has most of the control now anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things

We'll have to see. Generally moving to OLR has seen a change at the top, and based on the past seven years this lot don't deserve to stay.

It certainly does matter if you have good people at the top of a TOC, irrespective of DfT control. Look at GA for example. I can't see that having panned out as it has if SWR management had been running it.

 

[43066]

With all our fancy IT know how couldn’t the DCO sighting issues have been modelled before introduction?
Or do it non-tech with a mock-up cab on a wagon!

Is there really IT tech that can do this to account for every location in real world conditions? I doubt it.

Certainly the way SE do monitor sighting it is running a networker around the metro patch, with staff on board each holding numbered signs corresponding to which carriage they’re in (the staff in question are often drivers who are on light duties, or on the naughty step). At each station the staff members step off the train in sequence, hold up the cards, and the driver/managers/union reps in the cab ensure they can be seen clearly in the platform monitors! Simple but effective.

I don’t know enough to conclude that something like this would have been possible with the 707s, but it’s hard to see why not from the perspective of an informed outsider.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

With all our fancy IT know how couldn’t the DCO sighting issues have been modelled before introduction?
Or do it non-tech with a mock-up cab on a wagon!

DOO was finally first introduced on BedPan 40years ago without any help from technology just plain old site visits with drivers reps and the engineers.

 

[Stephen42]

How have Southeastern managed to introduce the 707s so quickly, when it was a completely new train type to their area? They didn't seem to have any problems in training their drivers?

Southeastern successfully introduced them and did a much better job, there are important differences though. Firstly they were an already working reliable train with software mostly up to the job, which reduces what's needed to route compatibility and crew training. Southeastern at that point were still Govia and acted on the lessons learnt from the 700 introduction on Thameslink, something like over a thousand lights were altered at stations to support transition from platform monitors to train mounted cameras.

In terms of introduction speed, it took a year and half from the contract being signed - some activities were carried out before the first unit moved across. It took 9 months from the first unit moved across to the passenger introduction. If you consider the soft launch as a separate operation to get a reliable train, SWR could increase passenger 701 operation at the end of next month and be roughly at the same pace. Southeastern didn't introduce regular weekend 707 operation until a year after passenger service introduction, which isn't particularly quick.

Crew training is where the biggest difference is likely to be. Southeastern's driver training was eight days across two weeks, half in simulators and half on real trains, that would have allowed two courses running at once. It started during a reduced timetable, looking back Hayes didn't get 4tph off peak back until September 2021 and Southeastern even now can run a full timetable during ASLEF rest day working bans. SWR on the other hand can't, I vaguely recall the working week might have been reduced for their drivers which wouldn't have helped. If needing additional rest day working that requires expenditure which would have to be agreed to and any potential disagreement between ASLEF/SWR over the course duration/training packages delays things plus requires sign off for any additional expenditure.

 

[Carlisle]

Plus Merseyrail must have had to clear all their stations for DOO dispatch fairly recently, so can’t be an impossible task .

 

[Snow1964]

It sounds as though most of the issues with the 701s are to do with sighting/DOO clearance issues. Of course the SE 707 fleet is also a fraction of the size, which makes logistics in terms of releasing people to be trained far easier.

Smaller size isn't the correct indicator, it is the proportion of the total size.

From memory I think it has been said there is approx 780 SWR suburban drivers. ORR data shows SWR are running about 75-80% of the trains of 5 years ago (some lines have seen frequency halved). Applying bit of simple maths suggests that 5 years ago, 100/77.5 x 780 is roughly 1000.

So unless they have offloaded about 200 drivers in 5 years, then on paper, there are lots of spare drivers which could be training. The only limiting factor appears to be lack of trainers.

 

[Goldfish62]

So unless they have offloaded about 200 drivers in 5 years, then on paper, there are lots of spare drivers which could be training. The only limiting factor appears to be lack of trainers.

So it's the case that SWR haven't allowed for enough trainers? How incompetent is that?!

 

[43066]

Smaller size isn't the correct indicator, it is the proportion of the total size.

I’m not actually sure that’s true but, even if we go with it, the 707s are AIUI both a smaller size and a smaller proportion of SE’s total metro fleet than the corresponding position for SWR.

From memory I think it has been said there is approx 780 SWR suburban drivers. ORR data shows SWR are running about 75-80% of the trains of 5 years ago (some lines have seen frequency halved). Applying bit of simple maths suggests that 5 years ago, 100/77.5 x 780 is roughly 1000.

So unless they have offloaded about 200 drivers in 5 years, then on paper, there are lots of spare drivers which could be training. The only limiting factor appears to be lack of trainers.

A snapshot of bald numbers from five years ago tells us nothing, as we don’t know how many have joined and left in the intervening period! Since then industry wide there have been a lot of retirements through Covid (ageing workforce), plus drastically slowed down trainee recruitment and training. Plus the complexities of diagramming mean it isn’t as simple as saying X% change in driver numbers corresponds to Y% change in services that can run - there are various other factors so the picture is more complex.

As noted above SWR were much more recently unable to run a full service during a driver overtime ban, which suggests they’re currently/very recently comparatively worse off than SE from a driver crewing point of view. Training capacity will be a massive issue as well, of course, as the same people involved in training on the new fleet will also be involved in new driver training, ongoing competency assessments for the existing driver population etc.

 

[74A]

Why hasn't the unit been run even once on a weekend or bank holiday? Do the drivers and guards who work them only magically sign them Monday to Friday?

As the unit is being worked by instructors and driver trainers I should imagine they work Mon to Fri with bank holidays off.

 

[swtrains]

In many ways the rollout of the 701s hasn't started yet. The soft launch started before agreement of the driver or guard training for the main introduction into service. With standard driver training only starting recently this is more like the period before the first 707s were introduced. It's obviously not a model example of a rollout and once it actually gets going I'd still expect it to be relatively slow.

The 485/4s require a much shorter training period so the rollout is much easier and can go much faster as a result.

Why were they soft launched?
Even if 458/4s have a shorter training period, they weren't soft launched, same w/707s.

 

[DMckduck]

As the unit is being worked by instructors and driver trainers I should imagine they work Mon to Fri with bank holidays off.

DI's on SWR are part of a specific depots establishment and will follow a line in a link exactly the same as a standard driver.

So earlies, mids, lates and all 7 days inclusive.

Probably the same for all TOCs, ops trainers are M-F though

 

[swtrains]

Finally being tested on the suburban side today, down to Epsom and back.

 

[gazr]

Finally being tested on the suburban side today, down to Epsom and back.

Not the best day to try this out with the Windsor side FUBAR.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Finally being tested on the suburban side today, down to Epsom and back.

We had one down Epsom about three or four years ago on a couple of test runs to Dorking and back... I think this is the first one since then, though...