Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[mansonlo49]

701060

thanks

 

[Bigfoot]

as in 455/6, the type number, not 456.

Do tell us all about this 455/6 that you know so much about!

 

[Sun Chariot]

Do tell us all about this 455/6 that you know so much about!

Maybe we should collectively ask RAIL's journo Paul Clifton

I'm still scratching my head at his "455/6" comment, within his article (the one you'd kindly linked, within post #9830).

 

[43096]

Maybe we should collectively ask RAIL's journo Paul Clifton

I'm still scratching my head at his "455/6" comment, within his article (the one you'd kindly linked, within post #9830).

He presumably hasn’t realised that the 456s have gone, most of the 458s have gone and that much of the suburban service on the Windsor lines is now 450s.

It’s entirely in keeping with the rag he writes for - no idea why anyone reads it.

 

[Geogregor]

Waiting patiently at Clapham Junction:


P1860822 by Geogregor*, on Flickr


P1860829 by Geogregor*, on Flickr

 

[Sun Chariot]

Great photos. A load of "youngsters", sat about, doing nothing useful.
Oh hang on - is that the Arterios, or the kids on school holiday in my local town centre....

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Great photos. A load of "youngsters", sat about, doing nothing useful.
Oh hang on - is that the Arterios, or the kids on school holiday in my local town centre....

Just like the how the children will soon go back to school, the Arterios will soon enter service... that is if they don't bunk off or rather in our case have technical problems

 

[Goldfish62]

Just like the how the children will soon go back to school, the Arterios will soon enter service... that is if they don't bunk off or rather in our case have technical problems

I see absolutely no reason why they won't be rolled out. They've been passed by the operator and the unions.

The 777s are ridiculously unreliable, but that hasn't stop a full introduction.

 

[childwallblues]

I see absolutely no reason why they won't be rolled out. They've been passed by the operator and the unions.

The 777s are ridiculously unreliable, but that hasn't stop a full introduction.

What have the 777s got to do with SWR? I use them each week and their reliability has massively improved.

 

[Goldfish62]

What have the 777s got to do with SWR? I use them each week and their reliability has massively improved.

Look back at the relevant posts, then I'm sure you'll understand the context of my comments.

Re 777 reliability, my comments are based on the official published reliability data (MP701D), but I'm not going to go OT by going any further into that.

 

[Invincible]

Apart from a door sticking, the 701s on the Waterloo to Windsor and the Poole tests seem now to be reliable, is it just the driver training holding up introduction to service?.

 

[Goldfish62]

Apart from a door sticking, the 701s on the Waterloo to Windsor and the Poole tests seem now to be reliable, is it just the driver training holding up introduction to service?.

Yes. Driver training started properly last week.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Don't understand why every Aventra after the 345 has all its wires showing by the coupler. Surely they could put a cover over it.. would probably mean less chance of them being damaged by something on the track too

 

[NSEWonderer]

Don't understand why every Aventra after the 345 has all its wires showing by the coupler. Surely they could put a cover over it.. would probably mean less chance of them being damaged by something on the track too

The 345s don't have electronic couplers like the rest, pretty sure they're manual couplers.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

The 345s don't have electronic couplers like the rest, pretty sure they're manual couplers.

Oh that's an interesting quirk. I guess because they'd never be coupled in normal service

 

[swt_passenger]

The 345s don't have electronic couplers like the rest, pretty sure they're manual couplers.

I think they’re better described as “mechanical” couplers, they’re normal Dellner/Scharfenberg style, but they don’t have the separate electrical connector block that a train needs for normal multiple working. But they’ll still automatically latch together by driving the other train into position.

 

[43096]

I think they’re better described as “mechanical” couplers, they’re normal Dellner/Scharfenberg style, but they don’t have the separate electrical connector block that a train needs for normal multiple working. But they’ll still automatically latch together by driving the other train into position.

So technically the 345s are not multiple units; they’re fixed formation trains.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

reliability data (MP701D),

Always find the name of this classification a bit ironic...

 

[Class15]

Always find the name of this classification a bit ironic...

I agree!

 

[Goldfish62]

Always find the name of this classification a bit ironic...

Never thought of that before, but yes!

 

[NSEWonderer]

I think they’re better described as “mechanical” couplers, they’re normal Dellner/Scharfenberg style, but they don’t have the separate electrical connector block that a train needs for normal multiple working. But they’ll still automatically latch together by driving the other train into position.

Ah I see. Thanks

 

[OneTrackMinded]

Something unique to the 701 is that at a certain speed the side displays seem to turn themselves off. This is not present on the other Aventras from what I've seen. I assume this is for energy saving
You can spot it here, around the 0:12 mark.

 

[mansonlo49]

Something unique to the 701 is that at a certain speed the side displays seem to turn themselves off. This is not present on the other Aventras from what I've seen. I assume this is for energy saving
You can spot it here, around the 0:12 mark.

or is it going through a neutral section?

 

[OneTrackMinded]

or is it going through a neutral section?

Doubt it since you can see it happen at other locations
Skip to 1:08

 

[Bigfoot]

Apart from a door sticking, the 701s on the Waterloo to Windsor and the Poole tests seem now to be reliable, is it just the driver training holding up introduction to service?.

One Windsor sat down in a huff for around 30 minutes recently. They are just as imperfect as any other stock.

 

[OneTrackMinded]

One Windsor sat down in a huff for around 30 minutes recently. They are just as imperfect as any other stock.

Fingers crossed the Wimbledon depot magic takes effect soon

 

[Peter Wilde]

Maybe we should collectively ask RAIL's journo Paul Clifton

I'm still scratching my head at his "455/6" comment, within his article (the one you'd kindly linked, within post #9830).

Or perhaps … Mr Clifton is especially well informed and forward looking?

On that basis, his saying "455/6” could just be a prediction for the coming winter - when all 455s will be reduced to 6 car fixed-formation units, in order to allow scrapping of some of the scruffiest or least reliable vehicles?

Meanwhile, isn’t it just great to be on SWR metro routes now that the summer has kicked in?

 

[swtrains]

To introduce more diagrams at once requires more staff trained and will take longer to get to that level. Most rollouts are very gradual, it keeps the gap between unit and training rollout smaller, helps ensure drivers trained earlier don't need to do refreshes and avoids large stock reshuffles when diagrams change over. At a guess the first step might be between 1 and 3 diagrams on the Windsor line. Early autumn is only a couple of months so relatively few drivers will be trained which will limit what is possible.

The current setup gives 1 diagram with 10 hours outside depots, it's possibly inefficient as the crews might only work those services in the shift and not reduce the required crew diagrams in the main pool by the same amount. If that was the case, a priority might be to get regular drivers to take over to allow the current crews to cover regular shifts and free up more drivers for training. If it wouldn't make much difference could keep as is and look to take on further diagrams instead.

From an outsider perspective on the other Windsor line unit diagrams, one looks to go from Feltham Depot stables at Wimbledon Park Depot Sidings between peaks and comes out again returning to Feltham Depot at end of day. Another starts and ends at Feltham Depot working only Windsor line services. Those seem reasonable candidates as allows stock to rotate around and Feltham has fewer trains starting at weekends. Weekend workings often start much later as diagrams change more frequently and less flexibility to get a trained driver to work a specific crew diagram. The other two seem more complex in the permanent timetable as one starts at Windsor itself and ends up Staines C.H.S with another unit doing the reverse making unit rotation harder plus a need to be in service at weekends. It's possible with some alterations they could switch over smoothly and which ones make more sense crew wise is hard to tell without knowing the crew diagrams.

Whilst your points are valid, this specific rollout is taking a ridiculously long time. No doubt new and refurbished stock will always have a plethora of issues before coming into passenger service, and it's also normal they will also have faults for the first few months in passenger service.

However, comparing the rollouts of the 707s under SWR, which were also brand new trains, and more recently the 458/4s, the 701 rollout is far from gradual - it's sluggish. When the first 707 was launched under SWR, it did Waterloo-Windsor (same as 701s on their first day), except those ran back and forth all day, morning till night, compared to the measly 2-3 services in the daytime of the 701s. Even more concerning is that it took 6 months to introduce a new route for the 701s, which still uses the same unit as the morning Windsors. One has to wonder if that route would have even been introduced at all if not for the refurbishment of the 458/5s.

By comparison, within 3 weeks of the 707s debut under SWR, a new set of 707 diagrams were introduced, on an entirely different route, yet we are still left wondering when a 2nd diagram for the 701s will come to light. Similarly, the 458/4s have also had more runtime than the 701s, with three diagrams already in service since late June (and a fourth entering from Monday). Another point worth noting is that even though both 707s and 458/4s initial diagrams were only going to run on weekdays, both were able to run on event days and match days at Twickenham, when extra services are required on weekends. Correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen a single 701 run passenger service on weekends yet, even if it's just for a match day?

Even the testing of the 707s and 458/4s appeared far more rigorous and frequent than what we've seen with the 701s. The 707s, which had plenty of fault-free tests like the 701s, but also testing across different corners of the suburban network, whereas 701 testing seems to be confined mostly to the Windsor and Hounslow loops, with barely any testing elsewhere.

 

[swr444]

Whilst your points are valid, this specific rollout is taking a ridiculously long time. No doubt new and refurbished stock will always have a plethora of issues before coming into passenger service, and it's also normal they will also have faults for the first few months in passenger service.

However, comparing the rollouts of the 707s under SWR, which were also brand new trains, and more recently the 458/4s, the 701 rollout is far from gradual - it's sluggish. When the first 707 was launched under SWR, it did Waterloo-Windsor (same as 701s on their first day), except those ran back and forth all day, morning till night, compared to the measly 2-3 services in the daytime of the 701s. Even more concerning is that it took 6 months to introduce a new route for the 701s, which still uses the same unit as the morning Windsors. One has to wonder if that route would have even been introduced at all if not for the refurbishment of the 458/5s.

By comparison, within 3 weeks of the 707s debut under SWR, a new set of 707 diagrams were introduced, on an entirely different route, yet we are still left wondering when a 2nd diagram for the 701s will come to light. Similarly, the 458/4s have also had more runtime than the 701s, with three diagrams already in service since late June (and a fourth entering from Monday). Another point worth noting is that even though both 707s and 458/4s initial diagrams were only going to run on weekdays, both were able to run on event days and match days at Twickenham, when extra services are required on weekends. Correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen a single 701 run passenger service on weekends yet, even if it's just for a match day?

Even the testing of the 707s and 458/4s appeared far more rigorous and frequent than what we've seen with the 701s. The 707s, which had plenty of fault-free tests like the 701s, but also testing across different corners of the suburban network, whereas 701 testing seems to be confined mostly to the Windsor and Hounslow loops, with barely any testing elsewhere.

701s use a completely new method of working never used before on the south western network. And they mainly test them on the windsor side as they use the paths of the xx15/45 and xx07/37 Hounslow rounders which aren’t in use in the off peak ever since Covid.

 

[DMckduck]

Whilst your points are valid, this specific rollout is taking a ridiculously long time. No doubt new and refurbished stock will always have a plethora of issues before coming into passenger service, and it's also normal they will also have faults for the first few months in passenger service.

However, comparing the rollouts of the 707s under SWR, which were also brand new trains, and more recently the 458/4s, the 701 rollout is far from gradual - it's sluggish. When the first 707 was launched under SWR, it did Waterloo-Windsor (same as 701s on their first day), except those ran back and forth all day, morning till night, compared to the measly 2-3 services in the daytime of the 701s. Even more concerning is that it took 6 months to introduce a new route for the 701s, which still uses the same unit as the morning Windsors. One has to wonder if that route would have even been introduced at all if not for the refurbishment of the 458/5s.

By comparison, within 3 weeks of the 707s debut under SWR, a new set of 707 diagrams were introduced, on an entirely different route, yet we are still left wondering when a 2nd diagram for the 701s will come to light. Similarly, the 458/4s have also had more runtime than the 701s, with three diagrams already in service since late June (and a fourth entering from Monday). Another point worth noting is that even though both 707s and 458/4s initial diagrams were only going to run on weekdays, both were able to run on event days and match days at Twickenham, when extra services are required on weekends. Correct me if I'm wrong but we haven't seen a single 701 run passenger service on weekends yet, even if it's just for a match day?

Even the testing of the 707s and 458/4s appeared far more rigorous and frequent than what we've seen with the 701s. The 707s, which had plenty of fault-free tests like the 701s, but also testing across different corners of the suburban network, whereas 701 testing seems to be confined mostly to the Windsor and Hounslow loops, with barely any testing elsewhere.

Why hasn't the unit been run even once on a weekend or bank holiday? Do the drivers and guards who work them only magically sign them Monday to Friday?

It's all been a bit weird really, and it does make you wonder if the guard was closing the doors would they be fully in service by now? I think so

No excuse really, everything is agreed they need to get on with it, and PTI issues shouldn't be an acceptable excuse now