Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[Railperf]

GE was recast (as such as it was wanted by GA) in June 2024 TT.

The only real change to GE was inserting the Chelmsford stop on the xx:00 Liverpool Street to Norwich hourly 'fast' service and removing the Chelmsford stop on the xx'30 to Norwich. The overall running time to Colchester did not change for the xx:00 because it had pathing time inserted to reflect slower trains running ahead (Braintree). Whereas the xx:30 having lost a stop arrives very slightly earlier in Norwich but the rest of the timetable remains slack.
I used a Southend service yesterday which was running as slow as 56mph through Gidea Park. A 15.5 min start to stop schedule from Stratford to Shenfield is ridiculously slow when it could easily be achieved in under 13 mins by a class 321.

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EDIT: Stansted services being diverted via Lea Valley and disruoting the GEML today. A good opportunity to see how robust the timetable is. But despite leaving Stratford close to 5 min late, the 11:30 to Norwich is pootling along 80mph where it could be doing 90mph - which doesn't help when there is a 50mph TSR at Shenfield. But the schedule from passing Chelmsford is 16.5 min plus 2 min - recovery time - so 18.5 min , which we know a 745 can do start to stop in under 15 min, so a determined drive might see an ontime arrival at Colchester. Great for service recovery, But seems excessive padding.
And wasn't the whole idea of the Ipswich Europa Jn designed to send more freight cross country rather than down the GEML?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Is freight the slowest traffic though, certainly doesn't look like it given the pathing time in its schedules - its the GA slower services that are even slower than under the NXEA recast which was already slack for 321s that are rightly being called out as overly padded by GA.

It's the stoppers that tend to cause the problem as the freight is 75mph containers and a lot of the line is 90mph South of Colchester anyway so the differential isn't that much I wouldn't have thought. In my experience at peak before the June change we used to get to Witham up to 10 mins early and then follow the stopper to Colchester. Now sensibly in my opinion, we stop at Stratford and generally still get to Colchester 3 or 4 mins early and no change on the end to end timing in to Norwich, we just stop at Stratford instead of the middle of nowhere.

For me now, missing out stations doesn't really help end to end timing, only thing that would improve timings is greater difference in departing Liverpool street but of course that reduces line capacity, which wouldn't be good as the trains are pretty busy now

 

[Bald Rick]

And wasn't the whole idea of the Ipswich Europa Jn designed to send more freight cross country rather than down the GEML?

Which it does.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Which it does.

Now the issue is really the paths at Ely or the lack there of.

Freeing capacity costs a lot of money either way

 

[class444 fan]

What is maximum length permitted the class 755?

 

[Railperf]

It's the stoppers that tend to cause the problem as the freight is 75mph containers and a lot of the line is 90mph South of Colchester anyway so the differential isn't that much I wouldn't have thought. In my experience at peak before the June change we used to get to Witham up to 10 mins early and then follow the stopper to Colchester. Now sensibly in my opinion, we stop at Stratford and generally still get to Colchester 3 or 4 mins early and no change on the end to end timing in to Norwich, we just stop at Stratford instead of the middle of nowhere.

For me now, missing out stations doesn't really help end to end timing, only thing that would improve timings is greater difference in departing Liverpool street but of course that reduces line capacity, which wouldn't be good as the trains are pretty busy now

It does not help that Class 66 diesels are used on some freight services- which clearly does not help performance. To be honest i've never found the slower stopping services ever held up by freight unless the freight is crossing to/from the North London Line at Stratford, or crossing on/off the GEML at Ipswich station to/from Felixstowe, plus the odd late freight being looped at Colchester on the down.

 

[43096]

It does not help that Class 66 diesels are used on some freight services- which clearly does not help performance. To be honest i've never found the slower stopping services ever held up by freight unless the freight is crossing to/from the North London Line at Stratford, or crossing on/off the GEML at Ipswich station to/from Felixstowe, plus the odd late freight being looped at Colchester on the down.

Hopefully once GBRf's Class 99s are in service that problem can be addressed. If Freightliner use Class 90s and GBRf their 99s then pretty much all the traffic out of Felixstowe towards London can be electrically hauled.

 

[dk1]

It does not help that Class 66 diesels are used on some freight services- which clearly does not help performance. To be honest i've never found the slower stopping services ever held up by freight unless the freight is crossing to/from the North London Line at Stratford, or crossing on/off the GEML at Ipswich station to/from Felixstowe, plus the odd late freight being looped at Colchester on the down.

Some of the freights are in excess of booked payload too. It’s more lucrative for freight operators to pay delay fines to NR and take the additional revenue.

 

[Railperf]

Hopefully once GBRf's Class 99s are in service that problem can be addressed. If Freightliner use Class 90s and GBRf their 99s then pretty much all the traffic out of Felixstowe towards London can be electrically hauled.

Ideally freight needs to be keot south of Ipswich to a bare minum during the day or at night.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

What is maximum length permitted the class 755?

Seems to be 2 x 755/4 and 1 755/3 in operation

 

[Bald Rick]

Ideally freight needs to be keot south of Ipswich to a bare minum during the day or at night.

Eh? What about the traffic that has to go via London?

 

[Class15]

Eh? What about the traffic that has to go via London?

I think the user means that freight traffic should not run in peak hours. There is now a Trafford Park - Felixstowe that runs right in the early part of the PM peak, which probably is a problem for reliability.

 

[Shwam3]

What is maximum length permitted the class 755?

Max of 3 coupled 755s, so up to 12 cars using 3x 755/4s.

 

[blueberry11]

In practice, I never see 3x4 car 755s, at least in passenger operation. It's always either 3+4+4 (11) or 3+3+4 (10). The power packs, along with the five unused cabs take up quite a lot of space.

 

[dk1]

Max of 3 coupled 755s, so up to 12 cars using 3x 755/4s.

You cannot have x3 755/4s. You will find all triple traction consists of at least one 755/3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

In practice, I never see 3x4 car 755s, at least in passenger operation. It's always either 3+4+4 (11) or 3+3+4 (10). The power packs, along with the five unused cabs take up quite a lot of space.

Exactly this.

 

[720144]

What is maximum length permitted the class 755?

11 coaches would just fit on a full platform triple as 4x4x3, or as 10 coaches 3x3x4 sometimes smaller 4x4 4x3 3x3 maybe 3x3x3. as with it being 4x4x4 3x3x3x3 12 coaches, the end coach won’t fit at any station apart from Liverpool Street, just like all the 745s/ double paired 720s are not even long enough to fit in manningtree. Plus the pants need to be far apart from each unit, the more unused cabs & traction cars taking up loads of room. If you line up a 745 next to a configured 11 car 4x4x3 adding the 3 power cars up together is coach M but split into 3 pieces.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==

Max of 3 coupled 755s, so up to 12 cars using 3x 755/4s.

Only ever happens with ecs moves back to Norwich crown point from Ipswich early & late hours.

 

[Shwam3]

3x 4 cars is most certainly allowed, there is no technical or operational restriction against it and my signature is on the some of paperwork authorising it.
3x 755/4 is 80.8m x 3 = 242.1m, this is shorter than 2x 720 at 121.8m x 2 = 243.5m.

In practice of course the triple traction runs are currently planned as 11 carriages so that's what they are formed of the majority of the time.

 

[class444 fan]

3x 4 cars is most certainly allowed, there is no technical or operational restriction against it and my signature is on the some of paperwork authorising it.
3x 755/4 is 80.8m x 3 = 242.1m, this is shorter than 2x 720 at 121.8m x 2 = 243.5m.

In practice of course the triple traction runs are currently planned as 11 carriages so that's what they are formed of the majority of the time.

11 coaches would just fit on a full platform triple as 4x4x3, or as 10 coaches 3x3x4 sometimes smaller 4x4 4x3 3x3 maybe 3x3x3. as with it being 4x4x4 3x3x3x3 12 coaches, the end coach won’t fit at any station apart from Liverpool Street, just like all the 745s/ double paired 720s are not even long enough to fit in manningtree. Plus the pants need to be far apart from each unit, the more unused cabs & traction cars taking up loads of room. If you line up a 745 next to a configured 11 car 4x4x3 adding the 3 power cars up together is coach M but split into 3 pieces.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==


Only ever happens with ecs moves back to Norwich crown point from Ipswich early & late hours.

You cannot have x3 755/4s. You will find all triple traction consists of at least one 755/3.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Aug 2024 ==



Exactly this.

Thanks all

 

[Railperf]

3x 4 cars is most certainly allowed, there is no technical or operational restriction against it and my signature is on the some of paperwork authorising it.
3x 755/4 is 80.8m x 3 = 242.1m, this is shorter than 2x 720 at 121.8m x 2 = 243.5m.

In practice of course the triple traction runs are currently planned as 11 carriages so that's what they are formed of the majority of the time.

Sounds like we stand corrected. Is there any reason it has not been seen in practice yet - even unplanned? As said above, the longest triple 755 consist observed so far in service is either 10 or 11 car. There must be a reason why it is authorised but never practiced.

Getting back to GEML running, it is a shame we don't see the 745's or 755's really running at the full potential unless a service being operated is running late. Otherwise they are running to schedules that even a Class 90 could keep (in the dry). Yesterday I had my 3rd sub 35 min run Stratford to Colchester despite a cautious start out of Stratford a 50mph TSR at Shenfield and slow clearing crossing gates at Ingatestone. Leaving Stratford 4 min late (held up by Stansteds diverted thru lea valley) helps. As this service was passing thru Marks Tey, I could see from open train times map that the GE service ahead was still crawling into Colchester P1 due to the severe approach control there that focrces trains to drop to almost 20mph before the P1 route clears.

If we had left Stratford any earlier, then we would have been seeing caution signals approaching Colchester. My analysis of real sectional running times on all the services I used so far suggest 33min 15 sec is possible!!

So a 4 min late departure converted into 1 late at Colchester and 1/2 min late departure due to a smart stop. Manningtree reached in 6.5 min on a 7 min schedule - could be faster but the signal at the platform end is always red forcing a slower approach due to caution signals. So RT arrival and the driver then chose 90mph cruise control for the leg to Ipswich as he was on time!
I can see there is a freight path passing Stratford at 11:12 and passing Colchester 12:10. The Clacton stopper leaves Stratford at 11:25 and booked Colchester at 12:14. So the issue preventing the Clacton being speeded up is the relatively slow freight path. The freight follows the Ipswich service that runs 11:09 stratford to 12:03 Colchester, so the stopper is not getting in the way. In fact my analysis of fast running times suggests the train could be 5 or 6 minutes faster - and is - when running late. So the capacity here is being strangled by the slow freight - not even averaging 60mph. And no evidence that the freight was able to run faster than its booked slot which would help.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Sounds like we stand corrected. Is there any reason it has not been seen in practice yet - even unplanned? As said above, the longest triple 755 consist observed so far in service is either 10 or 11 car. There must be a reason why it is authorised but never practiced.

Getting back to GEML running, it is a shame we don't see the 745's or 755's really running at the full potential unless a service being operated is running late. Otherwise they are running to schedules that even a Class 90 could keep (in the dry). Yesterday I had my 3rd sub 35 min run Stratford to Colchester despite a cautious start out of Stratford a 50mph TSR at Shenfield and slow clearing crossing gates at Ingatestone. Leaving Stratford 4 min late (held up by Stansteds diverted thru lea valley) helps. As this service was passing thru Marks Tey, I could see from open train times map that the GE service ahead was still crawling into Colchester P1 due to the severe approach control there that focrces trains to drop to almost 20mph before the P1 route clears.

If we had left Stratford any earlier, then we would have been seeing caution signals approaching Colchester. My analysis of real sectional running times on all the services I used so far suggest 33min 15 sec is possible!!

So a 4 min late departure converted into 1 late at Colchester and 1/2 min late departure due to a smart stop. Manningtree reached in 6.5 min on a 7 min schedule - could be faster but the signal at the platform end is always red forcing a slower approach due to caution signals. So RT arrival and the driver then chose 90mph cruise control for the leg to Ipswich as he was on time!
I can see there is a freight path passing Stratford at 11:12 and passing Colchester 12:10. The Clacton stopper leaves Stratford at 11:25 and booked Colchester at 12:14. So the issue preventing the Clacton being speeded up is the relatively slow freight path. The freight follows the Ipswich service that runs 11:09 stratford to 12:03 Colchester, so the stopper is not getting in the way. In fact my analysis of fast running times suggests the train could be 5 or 6 minutes faster - and is - when running late. So the capacity here is being strangled by the slow freight - not even averaging 60mph. And no evidence that the freight was able to run faster than its booked slot which would help.

I would say the triple 4 car is unlikely as the spare 755s are the 3 car version as you'd want as much as possible the 4 car units on the regional services (except Sudbury).

I agree with your point on the GE services, 745s could maintain a faster time, probably 1hr 40 would be a realistic goal but south of Ipswich there is too much traffic for that to be a reliable time table.

 

[greaterangrier]

I can see there is a freight path passing Stratford at 11:12 and passing Colchester 12:10. The Clacton stopper leaves Stratford at 11:25 and booked Colchester at 12:14. So the issue preventing the Clacton being speeded up is the relatively slow freight path. The freight follows the Ipswich service that runs 11:09 stratford to 12:03 Colchester, so the stopper is not getting in the way. In fact my analysis of fast running times suggests the train could be 5 or 6 minutes faster - and is - when running late. So the capacity here is being strangled by the slow freight - not even averaging 60mph. And no evidence that the freight was able to run faster than its booked slot which would help.

You could speed up the Clacton, but then it would clash with the Walton train at Thorpe, which has a minimum turnaround time before so can't be moved.

Really, the whole of the GEML needs to be properly recast from scratch.

In this recast, they switched stops around (Intercity), added stops (Hythe), inflated adjustment time (Witham), inflated running times (Colchester, Marks Tey, Southend branch, Southminster branch, Walton branch, Ipswich) and inflated dwells (Witham, Colchester, Ipswich).

Lo and behold, new "recast" timetable but the entire structure has the exact same times, therefore limitations as the previous one. Beaulieu Park cannot come sooner!

 

[Railperf]

it isn't all about Norwich. It looks like all of the GE could be speeded somewhat. For example, the flow of traffic into platform 1 at Colchester is severely hindered by the approach control that forces you to come to almost a stand - when it is a 50mph turnout into the platform. Operationally that is a hinderance. But i guess it needs some sort of investment to allow a 50mph movement off the main line without slowing the trains down so much! A quicker exit into P1 would allow the train to clear the overlap clearing the route for trains on the main line. The Clacton can be held in P1 and regulated along the branch if the Colchester Town and Walton movements prevent an earlier departure.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

it isn't all about Norwich. It looks like all of the GE could be speeded somewhat. For example, the flow of traffic into platform 1 at Colchester is severely hindered by the approach control that forces you to come to almost a stand - when it is a 50mph turnout into the platform. Operationally that is a hinderance. But i guess it needs some sort of investment to allow a 50mph movement off the main line without slowing the trains down so much! A quicker exit into P1 would allow the train to clear the overlap clearing the route for trains on the main line. The Clacton can be held in P1 and regulated along the branch if the Colchester Town and Walton movements prevent an earlier departure.

They don't need to remodel the track. They could just get flashing yellows like they do at the goods loop

 

[Alfie1014]

They don't need to remodel the track. They could just get flashing yellows like they do at the goods loop

I think that’s the problem, (as touched on in another thread), you can’t have 2 lots of flashing yellows in quick succession. Personally I think flashing yellows into 1 would be more beneficial as it would speed up at least 2 trains an hour (more in the peaks) as opposed to the occasional freight. Yesterday for example only 3 freights actually used the down loop, though all 3 were flighted in front of a Clacton which is in front of a Norwich of course!

 

[greaterangrier]

I think that’s the problem, (as touched on in another thread), you can’t have 2 lots of flashing yellows in quick succession. Personally I think flashing yellows into 1 would be more beneficial as it would speed up at least 2 trains an hour (more in the peaks) as opposed to the occasional freight. Yesterday for example only 3 freights actually used the down loop, though all 3 were flighted in front of a Clacton which is in front of a Norwich of course!

Although I agree with you completely - (massively positive for reliability too) only [½] adjustment is required for Platform 1 and it's unlikely to be removed based on other margin increases in the area

Reducing the arrive-arrive and depart-depart headways at Colchester to 2½ or 2 minutes additionally would be free and is well within the current capabilities of the signalling.

Interestingly, implementing a special depart-depart headway of 3/3½ minutes at Thorpe-le-Soken instead could solve all the above and give Colchester Town a faster service in the meantime.

 

[720144]

You could speed up the Clacton, but then it would clash with the Walton train at Thorpe, which has a minimum turnaround time before so can't be moved.

Really, the whole of the GEML needs to be properly recast from scratch.

In this recast, they switched stops around (Intercity), added stops (Hythe), inflated adjustment time (Witham), inflated running times (Colchester, Marks Tey, Southend branch, Southminster branch, Walton branch, Ipswich) and inflated dwells (Witham, Colchester, Ipswich).

Lo and behold, new "recast" timetable but the entire structure has the exact same times, therefore limitations as the previous one. Beaulieu Park cannot come sooner!

Don’t forget Cambridge south will also be a timetable upgrade to the WAML.

Yeah mainly on Sundays they run Walton to Thorpe & Braintree to Witham as a shuttle.

They really need to remove the freight slots off the GEML if not booked to run.

 

[dk1]

Thanks all

Pleasure my friend.

 

[jammmmmsssssss]

I think that’s the problem, (as touched on in another thread), you can’t have 2 lots of flashing yellows in quick succession. Personally I think flashing yellows into 1 would be more beneficial as it would speed up at least 2 trains an hour (more in the peaks) as opposed to the occasional freight. Yesterday for example only 3 freights actually used the down loop, though all 3 were flighted in front of a Clacton which is in front of a Norwich of course!

I heard somewhere that it was better to have the flashing yellows into the goods loop as the freights are really slow to accelerate and you want them off the line, but passenger trains are pretty quick, so they clear the line quickly anyway

 

[Railperf]

I heard somewhere that it was better to have the flashing yellows into the goods loop as the freights are really slow to accelerate and you want them off the line, but passenger trains are pretty quick, so they clear the line quickly anyway

The difference between an entry into P2 and P1 is around 40 seconds due to the fact that the signal into P1 does not clear until the train has come down to a crawl of around 25mph. This is pretty archaic. It;s about time we had a speed supervision device to protect the braking curve in locations such as these such as French KVB. Then there would be less risk of confusion if such a risk is what prevents different flashing yellow aspects being placed too close to each other.

 

[dk1]

That signalling arrangement into platform 1 became slightly more restrictive after resignalling of no man’s land between Marks Tey and Colchester a few years ago.

 

[Railperf]

That signalling arrangement into platform 1 became slightly more restrictive after resignalling of no man’s land between Marks Tey and Colchester a few years ago.

I remember a few occasions where the loco-hauled trains were stopped in P1 - usually because they caught up wat is now the Ipswich stopper but in those days went to Harwich. i wondered why the Harwich couldn't have been put into P1 but it was explained the overlap at the end of P2 was too short to the crossover from P1 and that no train would be allowed in P2 where a P1 service is booked to go back on to the down main. But not seen that lately. So not sure if that was ever resolved.