Toiletless trains blamed for forced door openings

[SouthStand]

And that's the attitude that causes people to self-evacuate in the first place

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That's because railways are a dangerous place, even when trains are stopped and power is off. Tripping hazards, slipping hazards. People, if not assisted, may trip and break and ankle. Then they will need more staff to evacuate them.
You need to keep an eye on where everyone is, so you know everyone is clear when you want to reopen the railway.

It’s not clear from his post whether he thinks they should be prosecuted or whether he was just enquiring whether any had.

 

[Surreytraveller]

It’s not clear from his post whether he thinks they should be prosecuted or whether he was just enquiring whether any had.

I see what you mean. I know sometimes BTP are sent to stranded trains to prevent this happening, but that would depend upon the availability of BTP officers

 

[philthetube]

700s have had far more events of this nature (but only 2-3 y older) yet they too have no 'trundle' batteries. Nor do S stock. Nor anything else.

I don't think an S stock has ever been stranded for this length of time, in the case of a complete shutdown, LUL staff would have them off much quicker

 

[deltic]

And that's the attitude that causes people to self-evacuate in the first place

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That's because railways are a dangerous place, even when trains are stopped and power is off. Tripping hazards, slipping hazards. People, if not assisted, may trip and break and ankle. Then they will need more staff to evacuate them.
You need to keep an eye on where everyone is, so you know everyone is clear when you want to reopen the railway.

There are trip and slip hazards on the average pavement - railways are not especially dangerous and as they are hopefully unfamiliar to most people they will take more care than when walking down your average street. Counting people off trains and on to platforms/egress points is straightforward - hundreds of school teachers do it every day. We have a general tendency to over think and complicate matters which can lead to bigger risks than the ones we are trying to avoid, ie people deciding to self evacuate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps all trains should be equipped with an emergency bucket for passenger needs, in case of stranding.

Emergency urinals are a thing, and yes they should be.

 

[yorksrob]

Emergency urinals are a thing, and yes they should be.

I never knew such a thing existed !

As they do, all of them should have them for when the bog goes out of use at the end of the evening !

 

[johncrossley]

Presumably the driver is also as stranded as the passengers, and the driver may well be getting frustrated, albeit being paid for it. The driver may also be bursting for the toilet.

 

[D7666]

I don't think an S stock has ever been stranded for this length of time, in the case of a complete shutdown, LUL staff would have them off much quicker

Indeed.

Which was my point - I was suggesting the Eliz line (all line) procedures /ought/ to be similar to LU.

 

[greyman42]

Have any passengers been prosecuted as a result of this incident? For example, by urinating inside the train or disembarking from the train without permission after the doors were forced open.

The police are not going to waste time checking CCTV and then tracking down passengers who urinated in a train.

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Have drivers ever needed to urinate in the cab in these circumstances?

The driver could urinate at the trackside easily enough.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

It's the fact the Train was stranded for so long that's the issue here, you don't have a toilet in your car in case it breaks down. This is probably going to get worse as less and less diesel locomotives are used if the railways go for electrification.

 

[Northerngirl]

There are trip and slip hazards on the average pavement - railways are not especially dangerous and as they are hopefully unfamiliar to most people they will take more care than when walking down your average street. Counting people off trains and on to platforms/egress points is straightforward - hundreds of school teachers do it every day. We have a general tendency to over think and complicate matters which can lead to bigger risks than the ones we are trying to avoid, ie people deciding to self evacuate.

But railway gravel is somehow different and more scary than regular gravel

 

[Adrian1980uk]

The police are not going to waste time checking CCTV and then tracking down passengers who urinated in a train.

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The driver could urinate at the trackside easily enough.

As long as it never breaks down on a 3rd rail electrified area... Shocking!!

 

[HSTEd]

Well if you want to engineer an extremely reliable railway of the future, don't put the ends onto an ancient main line without a continuous evacuation route. Also probably use overhead conductor bars in place of conventional overhead line.

 

[yorksrob]

you don't have a toilet in your car in case it breaks down.

Yes you do, you have the grass verge and a bush.

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As long as it never breaks down on a 3rd rail electrified area... Shocking!!

I'm sure I read somewhere that even if one did pee towards the third rail, the stream was discontinuous enough not to form a circuit (no, I'm not prepared to test it though).

 

[74A]

Presumably the driver is also as stranded as the passengers, and the driver may well be getting frustrated, albeit being paid for it. The driver may also be bursting for the toilet.

Driver will probably have an empty drinks bottle to use.

 

[Falcon1200]

There are trip and slip hazards on the average pavement - railways are not especially dangerous

I would very much disagree; A railway is a totally different environment from any pavement, with uneven ballast and surfaces, slippery sleepers and rails, oily lubricated pointwork, cables, AWS magnets, TPWS grids and APC magnets, and at Paddington, the 3rd and 4th rail electrified Hammersmith & City Line immediately adjacent to the GW Main Line. Not to mention the difficulty of getting passengers off trains and onto the track in the first place. Therefore detraining is always a last resort, however in the incident at Paddington this was the only option; But counting passengers off a train requires someone to do this, marshal people so that they do not stray into more hazardous areas and head in the right direction. All of which takes time.

But yes, 4 hours is far too long, it is not at all surprising that passengers were caught short, and they cannot be blamed for taking action. Hopefully that fact that Network Rail's Andrew Haines was caught up in the incident will lead to, or rather has already led to, a review of Control staffing; I have been involved in incidents where so many trains were affected that not all could be dealt with as effectively as possible due to the intense pressure placed on Control staff, with everyone fire fighting and no-one having time to step back and take an overview.

 

[Surreytraveller]

There are trip and slip hazards on the average pavement - railways are not especially dangerous and as they are hopefully unfamiliar to most people they will take more care than when walking down your average street. Counting people off trains and on to platforms/egress points is straightforward - hundreds of school teachers do it every day. We have a general tendency to over think and complicate matters which can lead to bigger risks than the ones we are trying to avoid, ie people deciding to self evacuate.

Who's going to count the passengers off when they're detraining of their own accord? No one. Who's going to count them off the railway, when some are climbing over fences, some are egressing via station platforms, some are going in one direction, and some in another? No one.
The slip and trip hazards on the pavement are nothing like the slip and trip hazards on a railway. Some pieces of equipment may still be live, even though traction current may have been isolated. The two are not comparable. There will be drunk people, mobility impaired people and stupid people, as well as those who think they know what they're doing but in reality haven't got a clue

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But railway gravel is somehow different and more scary than regular gravel

The ballast is what you're supposed to walk on. But if there's no one there to explain that, no one will know

 

[philthetube]

There are trip and slip hazards on the average pavement - railways are not especially dangerous and as they are hopefully unfamiliar to most people they will take more care than when walking down your average street. Counting people off trains and on to platforms/egress points is straightforward - hundreds of school teachers do it every day. We have a general tendency to over think and complicate matters which can lead to bigger risks than the ones we are trying to avoid, ie people deciding to self evacuate.

But railway gravel is somehow different and more scary than regular gravel

Having walked trackside,(legally) I can assure you that it is much more difficult terrain than the average pavement, this is not to say that this train should not have been evacuated. However people with walking difficulties or unsuitable footwear, (heels, flipflops etc,) should remain on the train and a private area could be created for them to do the necessaries'.

 

[yorksrob]

I would very much disagree; A railway is a totally different environment from any pavement, with uneven ballast and surfaces, slippery sleepers and rails, oily lubricated pointwork, cables, AWS magnets, TPWS grids and APC magnets, and at Paddington, the 3rd and 4th rail electrified Hammersmith & City Line immediately adjacent to the GW Main Line. Not to mention the difficulty of getting passengers off trains and onto the track in the first place. Therefore detraining is always a last resort, however in the incident at Paddington this was the only option; But counting passengers off a train requires someone to do this, marshal people so that they do not stray into more hazardous areas and head in the right direction. All of which takes time.

Which is why people will be treading gingerly, not bounding up the six-foot with abandon.

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Who's going to count the passengers off when they're detraining of their own accord? No one. Who's going to count them off the railway, when some are climbing over fences, some are egressing via station platforms, some are going in one direction, and some in another? No one.
The slip and trip hazards on the pavement are nothing like the slip and trip hazards on a railway. Some pieces of equipment may still be live, even though traction current may have been isolated. The two are not comparable. There will be drunk people, mobility impaired people and stupid people, as well as those who think they know what they're doing but in reality haven't got a clue

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The ballast is what you're supposed to walk on. But if there's no one there to explain that, no one will know

I imagine a train going slowly up the line afterwards counting people.

 

[Haywain]

Which is why people will be treading gingerly, not bounding up the six-foot with abandon.

Your faith in people's ability to behave sensibly is touching.

 

[yorksrob]

Your faith in people's ability to behave sensibly is touching.

I agree to an extent, but for the average person, if they've climbed down from a train on to the cutting, it will be gingerly.

That's not to say that it won't be dangerous and the staff wont need to guide them.

 

[Haywain]

for the average person, if they've climbed down from a train on to the cutting, it will be gingerly.

Having been on a train that was evacuated on to the track, I can't agree.

 

[yorksrob]

Having been on a train that was evacuated on to the track, I can't agree.

I concede to your experience !

 

[jettofab]

Driver will probably have an empty drinks bottle to use.

The police are not going to waste time checking CCTV and then tracking down passengers who urinated in a train.

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The driver could urinate at the trackside easily enough.

Not so easy if the driver is not male!

 

[Wolfie]

Have any passengers been prosecuted as a result of this incident? For example, by urinating inside the train or disembarking from the train without permission after the doors were forced open.

As someone who takes diuretics as essential medication after a stroke l am afraid that allowing the railway and its apparently increasingly precious staff to believe that screwing over passengers is fine for their convenience is not my priority. l will happily make you and your management's life absolute hell if you want to try it on with me.

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Not so easy if the driver is not male!

Unless they have a "she-wee" or similar.

To be honest l hadn't considered that the onboard staff have similar issues.

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Indeed.

Which was my point - I was suggesting the Eliz line (all line) procedures /ought/ to be similar to LU.

That rather assumes that TfL runs all of the stations.

 

[SouthStand]

Not so easy if the driver is not male!

Define “not male”

 

[D7666]

That rather assumes that TfL runs all of the stations.

No

That is precisely why I said 'similar'

 

[Tramfan]

What should happen is the people that need to make the decisions, need to actually make them in a timely manner taking into account all of the information, there was absolutely no need for people to be stuck on a train for 4 hours when it was clear after 20 mins that things aren’t going to be moving quickly, from the small amount of information I’ve read, it was prioritised removing the wires from the train that brought them down rather than getting trains evacuated

That's concerning if it's the case, as wires down is not a "quick fix" and I would expect the priority to be to rescue any passengers on trains stuck between stations. Last thing you want in a situation like that is passengers self evacuating.

 

[Wolfie]

What should happen is the people that need to make the decisions, need to actually make them in a timely manner taking into account all of the information, there was absolutely no need for people to be stuck on a train for 4 hours when it was clear after 20 mins that things aren’t going to be moving quickly, from the small amount of information I’ve read, it was prioritised removing the wires from the train that brought them down rather than getting trains evacuated

If the railway prioritises it's own convenience over passengers it better not be surprised if said passengers give it an FU response and take action which suits them. Frankly in such circumstances l would almost advocate passenger legal action for unlawful detention.

 

[TheTallOne]

You're a genius and that's a master plan.

How do you do that in a single track tunnel with no power?

Drat. Good point. I hadn't spotted the bit about the overhead lines being damaged. And yes, I guess a lot of the underground tube network is pairs of single tunnels.

Certainly agree on the points raised on it's not an issue with lack of toilets it's more an issue of it taking too long to get people off the trains.

As for difficult to walk in high heels, I guess there is the option of taking shoes off, although not sure what you might end up walking on. Eeek! Maybe add emergency flip flops to the cupboard as well as the emergency bucket?