Releasing Unoccupied Reserved Seats

[tehmarks]

It would be controversial for some here no doubt but I reckon if you have a seat reservation then you Choose to not sit in it then I think when the revenue check is undertaken, that failure to sit in your booked seat should result in fine !!

I travel on the 05:48 Kings Cross-Edinburgh very frequently, usually after finishing work sometime around midnight and hanging around in London for five-odd hours. If I buy an advance ticket I have to make a seat reservation, and I often don't get to choose my seat at the point of reserving (because the Trainsplit seat selector only works sporadically and Lumo don't seem to have one at all).

Why would I choose to sit in the suboptimal seat that the system has reserved for me, very likely next to someone else, when I could sit in a pair of seats on a non-full train and sleep comfortably?

It shouldn't be beyond people to go "oh, this seat was reserved from Kings Cross and no one is sat in it now that we're going past Stevenage - I guess it's unoccupied, I guess I will sit in it".

 

[Meerkat]

Couldn't agree more - if only they would!

It would remove all the arguments, all the conflict, chaos and delays at a stroke. There's nothing worse than passengers lingering in the aisles, gazing at reservation displays when they haven't a clue what they're looking at, no appreciation of geography or what the next stations are, can't decide whether to sit down or not or where to stow their luggage and completely oblivious to the fact that other people are wanting to get past them.
Cross Country would be the prime candidate for trialling abolition of reservations, I wouldn't object to them being retained in First Class so there's always an option for people who feel better for having them.

As if! If there were no reserved seats the bundle onto intercity trains would reach dangerous proportions.
The default in intercity should be all reserved, with reservation available at any time, and changeable en route, and rewards for cancelling it if you don’t use it.

 

[The exile]

with reservation available at any time,

A big “no” to this. No one should be able to boot someone out of a seat that was unreserved when they sat in it. To make things clear, I would go for reservations up until midnight at the start of the day of travel (purely because “up to departure from origin” requires you to know when that is.

 

[nanstallon]

If I join a train other than at the starting station and see an apparently reserved, but unoccupied, seat that I'd like to sit in, I ask others whether that seat has been empty. I never get an answer; they never admit to knowing!

 

[Topological]

A big “no” to this. No one should be able to boot someone out of a seat that was unreserved when they sat in it. To make things clear, I would go for reservations up until midnight at the start of the day of travel (purely because “up to departure from origin” requires you to know when that is.

This is why such late reservation systems apply on trains where reservations are compulsory and you are expected to sit in your allocated seat. It works really well on things like the Chinese high-speed trains, but then every seat faces forward in a 3+2 (I believe mirroring Japan) and there's no particular differential beyond the window/middle/aisle.

The ability to go and sit somewhere else and then expect that seat to be empty is what stops it working in the UK. Flexible tickets can be amended with a reservation at the TVM (or on an app) so are not the real barrier. If the train is full the flexible ticket holder could well be standing anyway. The Chinese solution to flexible tickets on the high-speed was to allow one carriage between the most popular stations and say that IF it was full you could stand. That may also work on longer trains in the UK.

All that said, I like the fact we can choose seats and are not bound to our reserved seats. I am certainly not advocating for any change to the present system.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

If I join a train other than at the starting station and see an apparently reserved, but unoccupied, seat that I'd like to sit in, I ask others whether that seat has been empty. I never get an answer; they never admit to knowing!

That attaches huge responsibility though. The only answer anyone (Passenger X) can confidently give is "I have not seen anyone sitting there" but that is not the same as saying the seat is empty. There is a risk on hearing that you (or whoever wants the seat) then sits there only for the holder to return. In such cases it is tempting to say "Passenger X said the seat was empty", which of course Passenger X did not say. It's not helpful, but I can see why people do not answer.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

As if! If there were no reserved seats the bundle onto intercity trains would reach dangerous proportions.
The default in intercity should be all reserved, with reservation available at any time, and changeable en route, and rewards for cancelling it if you don’t use it.

Seems to work fine at places like Marylebone and Waterloo, which have some long distance services but no reservations.
I don't know what Liverpool St is like now that Greater Anglia don't do reservations, but I haven't heard any complaining.

You get to the station with plenty of time, head to your platform (which is advertised well before departure), wander along the train until you find a seat you like, stow your luggage nearby, and sit down!
If you turn up at the last minute, you have to sit in a sub-optimal seat or stand until a seat frees up later in the journey, just as in any other first-come first-served situation.

The thing that causes the dangerous crush is not calling trains until the last minute and kettling passengers away from the platforms.
That and not providing adequate capacity in the first place.

 

[Benjwri]

Seems to work fine at places like Marylebone and Waterloo, which have some long distance services but no reservations.
I don't know what Liverpool St is like now that Greater Anglia don't do reservations, but I haven't heard any complaining.

You get to the station with plenty of time, head to your platform (which is advertised well before departure), wander along the train until you find a seat you like, stow your luggage nearby, and sit down!
If you turn up at the last minute, you have to sit in a sub-optimal seat or stand until a seat frees up later in the journey, just as in any other first-come first-served situation.

The thing that causes the dangerous crush is not calling trains until the last minute and kettling passengers away from the platforms.
That and not providing adequate capacity in the first place.

All well and good when you live in London, what about people who live in other major cities where trains don't terminate? I quite like knowing I'll get a seat or 50% of my fare back personally... (Referring to GWR's seat guarantee)

 

[ivorytoast28]

Perhaps I'm breaking some faux pais but I don't even think twice about sitting in an unoccupied reserved seat. I usually get on to find a near empty carriage with loads of reservations unused. Of course I'd move immediately if someone actually turned up even if it was several stops later as I generally feel the reservation should be for the journey and not expire the way some abroad do.

Ultimately, the issue is LNER selling reservations with every ticket rather than just advance ones. I certainly don't need or want them using fully flexible tickets with no clue of which train or even operator I'll be taking at time of purchase yet it always gives me one that is probably right next to someone else in a crowded carriage on an otherwise empty train.

 

[Sleepy]

Seems to work fine at places like Marylebone and Waterloo, which have some long distance services but no reservations.
I don't know what Liverpool St is like now that Greater Anglia don't do reservations, but I haven't heard any complaining.

You get to the station with plenty of time, head to your platform (which is advertised well before departure), wander along the train until you find a seat you like, stow your luggage nearby, and sit down!
If you turn up at the last minute, you have to sit in a sub-optimal seat or stand until a seat frees up later in the journey, just as in any other first-come first-served situation.

The thing that causes the dangerous crush is not calling trains until the last minute and kettling passengers away from the platforms.
That and not providing adequate capacity in the first place.

Greater Anglia works fine without reservations. (often though leaving Liverpool St. people will walk through 2 or 3 coaches then sit in doorway tip up seats rather than sit next to a stranger or walk further - often plenty of vacant seats in front 6 coaches, even many bays of 4 on quieter departures)

 

[Bikeman78]

Hello. I was travelling Kings Cross to York the other day and the train was busy due to a cancellation. There were a couple of people standing but around 20 minutes after we left the train manager put out an announcement for those standing advising them to sit in any empty seat even if it was reserved from KGX.

So my question is, was she correct? Where do guards stand on allowing passengers to occupy reserved seats that have not been sat in. Is there a point at which you ‘forfeit’ your seat reservation on a train?

I guess it would be silly to have people standing if there were unoccupied seats but then I wonder about those who had the reservation, decided they preferred another seat me leave their reserved seats empty (and potentially unavailable) for the journey.

On busy trains from Paddington, I will sit in a reserved seat if no others are available. If someone turns up then I move but that only happens about one time in 10. I certainly wouldn't expect to get evicted at Swindon on a seat reserved from Paddington.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jul 2024 ==

You get to the station with plenty of time, head to your platform (which is advertised well before departure), wander along the train until you find a seat you like, stow your luggage nearby, and sit down!
If you turn up at the last minute, you have to sit in a sub-optimal seat or stand until a seat frees up later in the journey, just as in any other first-come first-served situation.

Thanks to realtime trains and opentraintimes, I am usually on the platform before it is announced. Plenty of other people do the same so the public is getting wise to the existence of these websites.

 

[nanstallon]

Seems to work fine at places like Marylebone and Waterloo, which have some long distance services but no reservations.
I don't know what Liverpool St is like now that Greater Anglia don't do reservations, but I haven't heard any complaining.

You get to the station with plenty of time, head to your platform (which is advertised well before departure), wander along the train until you find a seat you like, stow your luggage nearby, and sit down!
If you turn up at the last minute, you have to sit in a sub-optimal seat or stand until a seat frees up later in the journey, just as in any other first-come first-served situation.

The thing that causes the dangerous crush is not calling trains until the last minute and kettling passengers away from the platforms.
That and not providing adequate capacity in the first place.

The customer is such a nuisance.

 

[poffle]

It's not defined anywhere, but realistically if you don't claim it within a reasonable time of the listed station someone else will and you'll have a hard job getting them to move.

The refurbished Pendolinos are fitted with a system to detect occupancy and do this automatically (that's why there are cameras all along the ceiling, it's not about reading your newspaper via the CCTV), but it doesn't appear to be in use yet.

I was watching a YouTube video yesterday of a talk given by Avanti to IMechE earlier this year about the introduction of the new class 805/807 trains on Avanti. Bits as well about 397 refurbishment and a little about HS2.

One of the interesting bits is that the 805/807s are fitted with sensors in each seat, whilst the Pendolinos use cameras. They were saying that their objective is to identify reservations which haven't been occupied a certain time after departure and cancel the reservations.

 

[Meerkat]

A big “no” to this. No one should be able to boot someone out of a seat that was unreserved when they sat in it. To make things clear, I would go for reservations up until midnight at the start of the day of travel (purely because “up to departure from origin” requires you to know when that is.

If the reservation system was properly live you would be able to choose a seat then reserve it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the reservation system was properly live you would be able to choose a seat then reserve it.

You can on LNER (albeit from the next stop). Though if too many people abuse it as someone suggested above there's a risk of this excellent facility being withdrawn or offered only to those who purchase directly from them instead of being available to all as it is now.

 

[Meerkat]

You can on LNER (albeit from the next stop). Though if too many people abuse it as someone suggested above there's a risk of this excellent facility being withdrawn or offered only to those who purchase directly from them instead of being available to all as it is now.

Abuse by sitting next to a booked seat?
Not so much an issue if it’s part of compulsory reservation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Abuse by sitting next to a booked seat?
Not so much an issue if it’s part of compulsory reservation.

No, someone stated upthread (or it might have been a different thread, I can't see it now) that they didn't like the way LNER pushes towards compulsory reservation and thus they would use the LNER reservation tool, which allows one to book a seat without having purchased a ticket*, to book a whole table's worth despite travelling alone. That abuse would both deny them revenue and cause people to think they can't travel at all if full, and it's likely if there's too much of it the facility will end up withdrawn.

(Of course if the subject of the thread was implemented, those seats would just unreserve themselves automatically anyway )

* It asks for a ticket number but you can enter anything, it can't check other retailers in real time.

 

[ricoblade]

Cross Country would be the prime candidate for trialling abolition of reservations, I wouldn't object to them being retained in First Class so there's always an option for people who feel better for having them.

If XC ran longer trains, I might agree but travelling fairly frequently on 4 cars between Doncaster and Bristol, I’m more than glad of my reservations.

Update - I’ve just returned on an 8 car that had people standing so again, glad to have my seat.

 

[peteb]

When travelling Avanti I rarely sit in the "reserved" seat because their booking system always seems to give me a rear facing airline seat with no window!! I merely get on in coach U wholly unreserved and usually get on a table for four. So few people seem to travel without a reservation these days I'm rarely joined in the other 3 seats unless the trains very overcrowded. Mind you this is based on joining the train at origin. Obviously getting on at intermediate stops requires a seat reservation to guarantee a seat!

 

[Bradford PA]

When travelling Avanti I rarely sit in the "reserved" seat because their booking system always seems to give me a rear facing airline seat with no window!! I merely get on in coach U wholly unreserved and usually get on a table for four. So few people seem to travel without a reservation these days I'm rarely joined in the other 3 seats unless the trains very overcrowded. Mind you this is based on joining the train at origin. Obviously getting on at intermediate stops requires a seat reservation to guarantee a seat!

I tend to take that option and sit in comfort as my split at Nuneaton often puts me in different seats, sometimes at opposite ends of the train - inconvenient if I have more than overnight luggage. I, too, join at either origin (Euston) or near the start (Stockport).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I tend to take that option and sit in comfort as my split at Nuneaton often puts me in different seats, sometimes at opposite ends of the train - inconvenient if I have more than overnight luggage. I, too, join at either origin (Euston) or near the start (Stockport).

If using Trainsplit and it gives you separate seats, you can usually sort this out by using the seat selector, unless it's the last Advance in a tier.

 

[Bradford PA]

If using Trainsplit and it gives you separate seats, you can usually sort this out by using the seat selector, unless it's the last Advance in a tier.

Thanks. I will try this if I am booking fairly well in advance. I often book quite late so assumed that the tier had taken effect by this stage.

 

[sheff1]

I rarely reserve seats voluntarily, but when I do (and, more usually, when the retailer insists on a reservation for no sensible reason) I often find that I am not given the type of seat I have specified* yet, when boarding, find that there are multiple such seats unreserved and unoccupied. Obviously, I then take one of the seats meeting my preference rather than the one given.

On other occasions my allocated seat is next to someone already onboard whist mutiple seats of the same type are unoccupied in the same carriage. Even worse is boarding the carriage in which the seat is reserved to find it heaving, whilst the next carriage is virtually empty.

* I know some sites purport to offer seat selection but in my experience it is hit and miss whether they actually work and/or impossible to see whether a 'window' is something you can see through or a solid pillar.

One of the interesting bits is that the 805/807s are fitted with sensors in each seat, whilst the Pendolinos use cameras. They were saying that their objective is to identify reservations which haven't been occupied a certain time after departure and cancel the reservations.

When reservations were shown using cards on seatbacks, a number of guards would remove the labels from unoccupied seats a few minutes after the train had left the 'from' station. Surprising that hitherto it has seemingly not been possible to cancel electronic reservations similarly.

 

[Krokodil]

When reservations were shown using cards on seatbacks, a number of guards would remove the labels from unoccupied seats a few minutes after the train had left the 'from' station. Surprising that hitherto it has seemingly not been possible to cancel electronic reservations similarly.

On Avanti they show "available if unoccupied"

 

[thaitransit]

Hello. I was travelling Kings Cross to York the other day and the train was busy due to a cancellation. There were a couple of people standing but around 20 minutes after we left the train manager put out an announcement for those standing advising them to sit in any empty seat even if it was reserved from KGX.

So my question is, was she correct? Where do guards stand on allowing passengers to occupy reserved seats that have not been sat in. Is there a point at which you ‘forfeit’ your seat reservation on a train?

I guess it would be silly to have people standing if there were unoccupied seats but then I wonder about those who had the reservation, decided they preferred another seat me leave their reserved seats empty (and potentially unavailable) for the journey.

This is why mandatory seat reservations is an absolute must on regional trains! There should never be any standing passengers on regional trains.

If its cancelled move the excess passengers to other trains or call in road coaches to help with the excess and offer partial refunds for 1st class and sleeping customers who have to suffer the rail replacement buses.

I am used to Queensland Rail where it's 100% reservations if the train booked out bad luck you will have to travel on another day! But if I do book in advance I get a comfortable seat for my whole journey. Especially important on the longer routes that can exceed 24 hours!

If there is a disruption the passenger are put on the dreaded rail buses but at least you get a seat albeit on a trip that now could be up to 36 hours long eg Brisbane to Cairns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why mandatory seat reservations is an absolute must on regional trains! There should never be any standing passengers on regional trains.

Kings Cross to York is not a regional train. It is a long distance InterCity train.

 

[Benjwri]

There should never be any standing passengers on regional trains.

What about passengers who are just travelling a stop or two, in urban areas where the trains often don’t travel far.

If it’s cancelled move the excess passengers to other trains or call in road coaches to help with the excess and offer partial refunds for 1st class and sleeping customers who have to suffer the rail replacement buses.

While that might be your preference, personally I would much rather stand than wait for the next train on an intercity route, or take a bus that will be significantly longer. Perhaps you’d like to be the ones to tell passengers they need to wait an hour or even two for the next train , and they can’t board the train infront of them that looks empty (by UK standards)?

 

[thaitransit]

Kings Cross to York is not a regional train. It is a long distance InterCity train.

The definition of regional trains must be very different in the UK. In Australia its typically defined as a train that connects rural area and regional centres with the capital city. So a train from Brisbane to Cairns is a regional train. In the UK sense a train from London to Manchester would be a regional train too.

 

[Peter0124]

It would be controversial for some here no doubt but I reckon if you have a seat reservation then you Choose to not sit in it then I think when the revenue check is undertaken, that failure to sit in your booked seat should result in fine !!

Strongly disagree.

 

[Benjwri]

It would be controversial for some here no doubt but I reckon if you have a seat reservation then you Choose to not sit in it then I think when the revenue check is undertaken, that failure to sit in your booked seat should result in fine !!

I assume the fines should also extend to those sitting in reserved seats without a reservation?

 

[thaitransit]

What about passengers who are just travelling a stop or two, in urban areas where the trains often don’t travel far.

While that might be your preference, personally I would much rather stand than wait for the next train on an intercity route, or take a bus that will be significantly longer. Perhaps you’d like to be the ones to tell passengers they need to wait an hour or even two for the next train , and they can’t board the train infront of them that looks empty (by UK standards)?

I am more used to the next train often being 5 or 6 hours later or more typically the next day. Hence why they offer a replacement coach to avoid being stranded overnight or longer in busy periods.