Releasing Unoccupied Reserved Seats

[azOOOOOma]

Hello. I was travelling Kings Cross to York the other day and the train was busy due to a cancellation. There were a couple of people standing but around 20 minutes after we left the train manager put out an announcement for those standing advising them to sit in any empty seat even if it was reserved from KGX.

So my question is, was she correct? Where do guards stand on allowing passengers to occupy reserved seats that have not been sat in. Is there a point at which you ‘forfeit’ your seat reservation on a train?

I guess it would be silly to have people standing if there were unoccupied seats but then I wonder about those who had the reservation, decided they preferred another seat me leave their reserved seats empty (and potentially unavailable) for the journey.

 

[Peter0124]

Hello. I was travelling Kings Cross to York the other day and the train was busy due to a cancellation. There were a couple of people standing but around 20 minutes after we left the train manager put out an announcement for those standing advising them to sit in any empty seat even if it was reserved from KGX.

What if someone was in the toilet?

 

[azOOOOOma]

I’ve no idea. Never thought about it, hence my question.

Laura x

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not defined anywhere, but realistically if you don't claim it within a reasonable time of the listed station someone else will and you'll have a hard job getting them to move.

The refurbished Pendolinos are fitted with a system to detect occupancy and do this automatically (that's why there are cameras all along the ceiling, it's not about reading your newspaper via the CCTV), but it doesn't appear to be in use yet.

 

[azOOOOOma]

I didn’t know that about the Pendolinos. How interesting. If it works then it sounds good!

 

[glasgowniteowl]

The train manager will have access to the cctv system, they will be able to gauge if everyone has settled after departure and with experience will be able to tell if there's still people getting to their seats(moving around with luggage etc) and after that should sensibly advise that it's OK to use untalented seats

 

[D6130]

When I was a guard at Brighton in the 1980s, the rule was that if a reserved seat had not been occupied within five minutes of leaving the station from which it had been reserved, it was available to all comers. The only reservable trains which I worked - apart from group bookings on internal SR EMU services - were the loco-hauled Brighton to Cardiff/Exeter/Manchester/Midlands trains....and they never had enough seat reservations for this issue to arise. However, in the present day context, a twenty minute deadline would seem to be a sensible solution. I've been on busy evening LNER/GNER trains out of King's Cross with groups of unoccupied reserved seats being taken by Peterborough commuters....only to find that a flustered family of four - plus luggage - have taken twenty minutes to fight their way through from the back of the train, having jumped aboard in first class at the rear of the train at the last minute, after arriving at St Pancras on a late-running Eurostar.

 

[DelW]

So my question is, was she correct? Where do guards stand on allowing passengers to occupy reserved seats that have not been sat in. Is there a point at which you ‘forfeit’ your seat reservation on a train?

I guess it would be silly to have people standing if there were unoccupied seats but then I wonder about those who had the reservation, decided they preferred another seat me leave their reserved seats empty (and potentially unavailable) for the journey.

There are lots of reservations made which are never taken up. I've been on plenty of journeys in which multiple seats around me have had reservations shown, few or none of whom appeared.

If I'm on a busy train without a reservation, I'll occupy a reserved but unoccupied seat a few minutes after we've left the start point of the reservation. In that situation I'd move if the holder turned up late though.

 

[The exile]

What if someone was in the toilet?

If the train is sufficiently busy that this is necessary, then a fellow passenger is going to know that - even if a coat, book or whatever hasn’t been left on the seat. Chances are that any standees who might take the seat will have also seen that person getting up to go anyway.

 

[Djgr]

What if someone was in the toilet?

99.9% of the time, if a reserved seat is not occupied it is not because the occupant is in the toilet!

 

[Bluejays]

Seems like a pretty pragmatic approach to me.

 

[Bald Rick]

20 years ago, Regular commuters on the 1700 / 1800 off the Cross to York / Newcastle would wait until the doors were locked, quick sauint down the corridor to check no last minute boarders were making their way down the coach, before occupying empty reserved sests.

 

[Skie]

Unrefurbished 390s would show “available if unoccupied” a short time after the service had left a station the seat was reserved from.

The new system, with lights, shows different colours and as above is supposed to spot empty seats and clear the reservation from the system if unoccupied for long enough.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

This is a very sensible system and mirrors what I have experienced travelling on intercity trains on the continent. However by the letter of the law, aren’t UK rail reservations made between the two points shown on the card? In theory the booked occupant could join the service at a later station (depending what their ticket permits) and still be entitled to their seat?

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Down here in CrossCountry land, my experience is that it's very much a case of 'every man for himself' when it comes to unoccupied reserved seats on trains that are often crush-loaded.

People will sit in any seat that's unoccupied just to get out of the aisles and will usually (but not always) move if the rightful reserver turns up... often they'll be stuck in a vestibule somewhere and can't even fight down the train to reach their seat anyway!
If they refuse to move, there's not much the passenger can do about it, even if they can find a staff member, they don't really have the power to do anything!

It doesn't help that so many reservations go unused, or are for short 10-20min hops that most able-bodied people should be able to stand for, because almost every ticket bought online gets sold with a reservation by default.

I'm very much an advocate for a nominal reservation fee (waived for disabled/elderly/groups or journeys over a certain length), as well as being able to easily change/cancel reservations once made. It means that someone who reserves a seat is more likely to actually use it!
Advance tickets should get a free reservation by default as you're going to have to use it or forfeit the ticket!

 

[redreni]

Most guards don't do this, probably because it only takes one incident where somebody returns to their reserved seat after having been in the buffet car or the toilet or chatting to somebody they know who was sitting in another carriage, and you've created a situation where the passenger who didn't reserve that seat now feels entitled to it because the guard said it was available.

Personally I generally assume seats that aren't taken after maybe 10 minutes from departing the relevant station are fair game to sit in, though I would immediately demur if the person who booked it turned up and asked for it. In fact they wouldn't need to ask - even looking for their seat and then looking a bit confused would be enough for me to ask them if this was their seat.

 

[158801]

Do what they do in Germany.

Charge £5 per reservation - that stops a lots of unnecessary bookings.
Delete the electronic reservation 15 minutes after departure (obviously difficult of it a bit of card on the back of the seat)

 

[stssts1985]

99.9% of the time, if a reserved seat is not occupied it is not because the occupant is in the toilet!

I don't think so, lots of people don't sit in their reserved seat or miss the train.

Myself included if traveling on AP I still prefer to choose my own seat in an unreserved carriage.

First class from Edinburgh to London about half way down line a man tried to boot me out "his seat", he'd decided to occupy a table of 4 and then at Darlington when some politicians took half the carriage including where he was sat, he wanted me to move from his original seat I'd been sitting in for 2 hours! I'm sorry but if you play the game, and hedge your bets with a better seat you can't then claim your original seat when it doesn't work out - what he's basically saying is that he has 2 seats on the train - the one he chose to sit in and his back up seat!!!

 

[Ashley Hill]

I think it’s fair to assume that if the passenger has not claimed their reserved seat by the next station then they’ve forfeited it.

 

[stssts1985]

Do what they do in Germany.

Charge £5 per reservation - that stops a lots of unnecessary bookings.
Delete the electronic reservation 15 minutes after departure (obviously difficult of it a bit of card on the back of the seat)

I think there should be a minimum journey time to have a reserved! I've seen many times people (due to connections) insist they get their reserved seat from Chippenham to Bath or so on.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do what they do in Germany.

Charge £5 per reservation - that stops a lots of unnecessary bookings.
Delete the electronic reservation 15 minutes after departure (obviously difficult of it a bit of card on the back of the seat)

DB guards used to fairly religiously go around removing the cards, so it can be done (unless more than one is printed). Does any TOC still use the bits of card, though? ScotRail maybe?

 

[fandroid]

Travelling a great deal between Kings Cross and Newcastle over the years, I observed that there was a consistent number of seats showing as reserved that were still not occupied well after their departure station. I'd guess up to 30% were like that on non peak-time journeys. My work meant that I had to be flexible about travelling times, so rarely reserved myself. I was content to leave it to chance and would do as others have described- occupy a reserved seat if necessary but be willing to give it up if challenged.

I'm a confident rail traveller, but have seen many unconfident passengers shuffling down a carriage and peering at the reservations, desperately seeking an unreserved seat. The no-shows do not do anyone a favour. They just increase the anxiety levels for those who aren't so relaxed.
There really should be a way for a passenger to cancel their own unused reservations.

 

[DelW]

99.9% of the time, if a reserved seat is not occupied it is not because the occupant is in the toilet!

I don't think so, lots of people don't sit in their reserved seat or miss the train.

If you read it carefully, the post that you've quoted says much the same thing, I.e. missing passenger is *not* likely to be in the loo.

Myself included if traveling on AP I still prefer to choose my own seat in an unreserved carriage.

Strictly speaking that doesn't comply with the conditions of an advance ticket.

 

[Bald Rick]

There really should be a way for a passenger to cancel their own unused reservations.

Whilst I agree, I’m afraid my (jaundicied and cynical) view of the Great British Public is that such a facility would be used by a small proportion of passenegrs that have reserved a seat. This is based on my experience thatmost passengers seem incapable of taking their own rubbish to the bin.

 

[D6130]

Does any TOC still use the bits of card, though? ScotRail maybe?

Grand Central for one....as well as ScotRail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I agree, I’m afraid my (jaundicied and cynical) view of the Great British Public is that such a facility would be used by a small proportion of passenegrs that have reserved a seat. This is based on my experience thatmost passengers seem incapable of taking their own rubbish to the bin.

If you booked via LNER for travel with them you can, at least for a standalone reservation.

You can also be mischievous and reserve the seat opposite, making it less likely for someone to sit there, but I suspect if done often it might be found out and the account closed.

 

[Krokodil]

This is a very sensible system and mirrors what I have experienced travelling on intercity trains on the continent. However by the letter of the law, aren’t UK rail reservations made between the two points shown on the card? In theory the booked occupant could join the service at a later station (depending what their ticket permits) and still be entitled to their seat?

I saw a reservation from Portsmouth Harbour once, decided that the passenger wasn't coming so sat down. She got on at Portsmouth & Southsea. For some reason all of the reservations for tickets from either Portsmouth station were reserved from Harbour.

Charge £5 per reservation - that stops a lots of unnecessary bookings.

What would stop a lot of unnecessary bookings would be if they weren't made by default, even if the passenger hasn't requested them. Short journeys like Bristol Temple Meads to Bristol Parkway shouldn't even be reservable, except by Passenger Assist.

Whilst I agree, I’m afraid my (jaundicied and cynical) view of the Great British Public is that such a facility would be used by a small proportion of passenegrs that have reserved a seat. This is based on my experience thatmost passengers seem incapable of taking their own rubbish to the bin.

It would help if booking a reservation tied your ticket to that reservation. So you can't get another train without releasing the seat on the original.

 

[D6130]

Many business people (or their secretaries) make reservations on two or more consecutive trains because they don't know in advance when their meeting is going to finish or what time their flight is going to arrive. Is it possible - with some TOCs at least - to cancel unwanted seat reservations at fairly short notice by phoning or emailing the relevant customer services department?

 

[800Travel]

Travelling a great deal between Kings Cross and Newcastle over the years, I observed that there was a consistent number of seats showing as reserved that were still not occupied well after their departure station. I'd guess up to 30% were like that on non peak-time journeys. My work meant that I had to be flexible about travelling times, so rarely reserved myself. I was content to leave it to chance and would do as others have described- occupy a reserved seat if necessary but be willing to give it up if challenged.

I'm a confident rail traveller, but have seen many unconfident passengers shuffling down a carriage and peering at the reservations, desperately seeking an unreserved seat. The no-shows do not do anyone a favour. They just increase the anxiety levels for those who aren't so relaxed.
There really should be a way for a passenger to cancel their own unused reservations.

LNER Reservations can be cancelled in the app. Though if done after the departure of the train, like new reservations, the changes don't show. May be an earlier cut off like the night before, I don't know.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Does any TOC still use the bits of card, though? ScotRail maybe?

Grand Central for one....as well as ScotRail.

CrossCountry still use card reservations on their 170-operated routes.

Personally I'd like to see this scrapped completely on accessibility grounds. The tiny print on these cards is impossible to read if you have a visual impairment, so you can't tell if the reservation is currently active, or for an earlier/later part of the journey.

The only upside is that, unlike electronic reservations, it's impossible to have the seat reserved out from under you mid-journey!