Liverpool Transpennine services

[northwichcat]

Cleethorpes from Platform 10? ive never seen that

MIA -> Cleethorpes usually goes from 6 or 7
Cleethorpes -> MIA usualy goes from 12

these are based on personal observation, having travelled on this service at several different times of every day of the week

I've seen a Cleethorphes-Man Airport service depart from platform 12 but I wouldn't say any service usually departs from platform 12 as it's a white elephant platform that's only used part of the day. In the peak periods they don't use platforms 11 and 12 as it helps to allow them to send more services through 13 and 14.

I've also definitely seen Cleethorphes bound services depart from platforms 9 and 10.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I consider Class 180s would be a waste being used via Burnley/Hebden Bridge, they need a higher speed line to work on.

Tim, I think that you have confused two things here. I was asking about the Warrington points put by different people on recent threads, of which there were diverse views and I suggested that having a real-time poll on this thread. which could see which point was the most favoured.

Then I went on to say was "This (meaning the real-time poll) was done on the thread which asked what company should receive the Class 180 units which are to be cascaded"

Still, interesting ideas can come out of misapprehensions. Class 180 units between Burnley and Hebden Bridge....bit too posh for the Calder Valley area, but far preferable to three Class 142 Pacers joined together
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... it's not really up to First though, if DFT say the service will change then the operator doesn't really get much of a say.

On this we both concur.

I thought it would be a good idea on this thread to show what First TPE said, so all of us could see their attitude to queries put to them and the manner in which they replied.

 

[tbtc]

I consider Class 180s would be a waste being used via Burnley/Hebden Bridge, they need a higher speed line to work on.

There are a lot of "slow" lines crying out for five coach trains

Most 125mph lines, on the other hand, don't need additional trains as much

I've said it before, but the most important feature of the 180s is the fact that they have five coaches, not the fact that they can run at 125mph

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

[QUOTE
- from Paul Sidorczuk:-

The mind boggles.....numerous bishops coupled with absolute hordes of steam buffs It will be like The Second Coming

Still, there is a precedent for this. Do you remember the Bishop acting as fireman in the film "THE TITFIELD THUNDERBOLT"...or have you not attained my age yet?

I've not only attained your age, I've also worked under the late Bishop Eric Treacy, who, as you will know, was happier on a loco footplate than in a pulpit!

There's a lovely photo in Gerry Fiennes's "Fiennes On Rails" of him and Eric Treacy on the footplate of "Matthew Murray" on the Middleton Railway, and an amusing tale follows of what happened when a Bishop was driver and the General Manager of the Eastern Region was fireman! [/QUOTE]

Welshman, I bow to your superior experiance and extended age. It must have been wonderful to have been connected with Bishop Eric Treacey. My brother had a hard back book about him at one time.

I should dread to think what our total combined age is!!:roll:

 

[Invincibles]

Cleethorpes from Platform 10? ive never seen that

MIA -> Cleethorpes usually goes from 6 or 7
Cleethorpes -> MIA usualy goes from 12

these are based on personal observation, having travelled on this service at several different times of every day of the week

I do not use the train as much as I used to, but the Cleethorpes - Airport certainly used to use 10 a lot. If they have shifted it further across that is ok, those platforms never seem to get many trains (I think the last one I got arrived in 11). They share the same approach track anyway (I think)

I did notice that the eastbound trains had started going into 6 or 7 after a brief spell of being "the front train on platform 5" ahead of the xx27 voyager. Before that it almost always seemed to be 3 for the eastbound. Eastbound the train does cross most of the throat because of the crossing needing to be fit in between the airport junction and Piccadilly. Westbound most lines are crossed south of Stockport.

 

[northwichcat]

There are a lot of "slow" lines crying out for five coach trains

Most 125mph lines, on the other hand, don't need additional trains as much

I've said it before, but the most important feature of the 180s is the fact that they have five coaches, not the fact that they can run at 125mph

From what I've heard using a 180 on a most or all stops service makes the trains more expensive to maintain than using them on a semi-fast or express service.

It seems whichever service is suggested for 180 operation some people object. I think this could be down to them wanting some nice 5 car trains in their area so they find the littlest objection to them going to any other areas.

I honestly, without basis, feel the North of England is the best place for them. Remember that Northern, TPE and FGW were promised some brand new diesel trains to help with overcrowding. However, these plans were cancelled and the fore mentioned operators were promised EMUs but they have to wait for overhead wires to be installed and EMUs to be cascaded from other parts of the country when the extra carriages were needed straight away.

As a slight variation of existing ideas why not give the 5 units to TPE and do a timetable alteration so the services become:

TPE:
Piccadilly-Hull
Liverpool-Cleethorphes
Liverpool-Scarborough (interworked with Liverpool to Cleethrophes)
Airport-Middlesbrough
Airport-Newcastle

EMT:
Airport-Norwich (interworked with Liverpool to Cleethrophes)

EMT would then effectively gain unit or two and TPE would make a net gain even though they would require more units in use at any one time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Coming back from Hebden Bridge to Manchester Victoria earlier this week, just before the train came to what was formerly Miles Platting station, on the left hand side, was a curved junction which meets the Stalybridge line and there is a bridge over Oldham Road that carries the line. I imagine that it would have been constructed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway.

Does anyone know the reason why this was originally constructed and the routes it would have made possible, as it would divert traffic away from Manchester Victoria.

 

[Damien1986]

Perhaps Transpennine Express should introduce a service every 2 hours between Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central/Edinburgh /Barrow in Furness etc opening up new journey opportunities between Merseyside and Scotland!

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps Transpennine Express should introduce a service every 2 hours between Liverpool Lime Street and Glasgow Central/Edinburgh /Barrow in Furness etc opening up new journey opportunities between Merseyside and Scotland!

That's expected to happen but not until around 2019. It would be EMU operated and act as a portion working north of Preston.

 

[MCR247]

EMT:
Airport-Norwich (interworked with Liverpool to Cleethrophes)

EMT would then effectively gain unit or two and TPE would make a net gain even though they would require more units in use at any one time.

Why would you want EMT working into Airport?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why would you want EMT working into Airport?

Dont they want to extend the derby crewe to airport?

That's expected to happen but not until around 2019. It would be EMU operated and act as a portion working north of Preston.

Not doubting you, but is that in any of RUS? just wondering so i could read it myself.

 

[WestCoast]

Dont they want to extend the derby crewe to airport?

Which isn't going to happen with current single 153 situation. :cry:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Which isn't going to happen with current single 153 situation. :cry:

well of course i cant imagine the mess that would cause, but im sure i heard somewhere that it is an aspiration.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Which isn't going to happen with current single 153 situation. :cry:

If the Derby - Crewe service was extended to Manchester Airport, then something far better than a Class 153 single unit would have to be supplied because of the extra loadings that a link from both these areas to Manchester Airport would require.

The current Manchester Piccadilly-ManchesterAirport-Crewe all stations service is a 3-car Class 323 EMU service, as is the Manchester Airport-Manchester Piccadilly all stations hourly shuttle service.

Manchester Airport rail station already has good quality diesel units serving this station, with the exception of the Class 142 Pacers, which would be unimagineable serving Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted airports. Please do not visit expectations of a Class 153 single unit service upon us.

 

[WestCoast]

If the Derby - Crewe service was extended to Manchester Airport, then something far better than a Class 153 single unit would have to be supplied because of the extra loadings that a link from both these areas to Manchester Airport would require.

The problem is EMT are just as desperate for stock as Northern is, any 156/158 sourced for the route would come at the expense of other services.

 

[Donny Dave]

As a slight variation of existing ideas why not give the 5 units to TPE and do a timetable alteration so the services become:

TPE:
Piccadilly-Hull
Liverpool-Cleethorphes
Liverpool-Scarborough (interworked with Liverpool to Cleethrophes)
Airport-Middlesbrough
Airport-Newcastle

EMT:
Airport-Norwich (interworked with Liverpool to Cleethrophes)

EMT would then effectively gain unit or two and TPE would make a net gain even though they would require more units in use at any one time.

Not a bad idea, but that would mean a major re-cast of the timetables. As things stand EMT and TPE provide a 30 min frequency between Sheffield and Manchester, plus Manchester and Liverpool. To accomodate TPE providing the 30 min frequency between Manchester and Liverpool, then either ....

The Liverpool - Scarborough is timetabled to run roughly 20 mins later, with the associated re-cast of the North TPE timetable, or ....

The Cleethorpes - Liverpool is retimed to run roughly 20 mins earlier, with the EMT service retimed as well. This also means the Hope Valley stopper has to be retimed to avoid conflicts.

Whichever option is chosen, it means a huge impact on other operators timetables, as other services then have to be retimed to avoid conflicts.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The problem is EMT are just as desperate for stock as Northern is, any 156/158 sourced for the route would come at the expense of other services.

Unless we ordered the nowrich liverpool route some 4 car 172's

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The problem is EMT are just as desperate for stock as Northern is, any 156/158 sourced for the route would come at the expense of other services.

If they don't have the stock of the right quality to spare, then they should not be considering running a service to Manchester Airport and using their existing stock on the services that they currently run.

With services to Manchester Airport in mind, I understand that ATW are considering extending some of their North Wales to Manchester Piccadilly services to Manchester Airport. They must have considered the loading potential of this.

 

[YorkshireBear]

If they don't have the stock of the right quality to spare, then they should not be considering running a service to Manchester Airport and using their existing stock on the services that they currently run.

And they are not considering it, it is a future aspiration, there is a difference.
They havent looked into the ins and outs but if stock did one day become avaliable it is something they would like to look into properly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And they are not considering it, it is a future aspiration, there is a difference.
They havent looked into the ins and outs but if stock did one day become avaliable it is something they would like to look into properly.

On this, I stand corrected:roll: Mea culpa.

But again, I say that IF they want to run the service EVENTUALLY, they surely must consider that stock will have to be cascaded onto EMT to make their existing fleet of the size that any proposed expansion of EMT services will require. I think that we concur on this point.

On a more jovial note, if EMT are short of stock, there are a few Class 142 Pacers that Northern Rail would "hopefully" gladly donate to them.....the more the merrier!! Another of my pipe dreams surfacing at midnight again

 

[northwichcat]

Not doubting you, but is that in any of RUS? just wondering so i could read it myself.

Yes it's in one of them but I can't remember which one, there's a Northern one, a West Coast one, an electrification one and a Manchester Hub one. I think it may be the West Coast one but I'm not sure on that.

 

[Damien1986]

That's expected to happen but not until around 2019. It would be EMU operated and act as a portion working north of Preston.

Surely it would have a catering service especially if they are going to Glasgow/Edinburgh!

 

[northwichcat]

And they are not considering it, it is a future aspiration, there is a difference.
They havent looked into the ins and outs but if stock did one day become avaliable it is something they would like to look into properly.

It's also something DfT want EMT to do rather than something EMT themselves wanting to do it. DfT have stated that a 153 is unlikely to be suitable for an Airport-Derby service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely it would have a catering service especially if they are going to Glasgow/Edinburgh!

The TPE Scottish route is the one route where they provide catering for most, if not all of the service (in the form of a trolley service.) On other services catering is not advertised provided north of Preston or York or east of Doncaster.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

On a more jovial note, if EMT are short of stock, there are a few Class 142 Pacers that Northern Rail would "hopefully" gladly donate to them.....the more the merrier!! Another of my pipe dreams surfacing at midnight again

I highly doubt Northern have anything spare right now - especially the overcrowding in some areas!

 

[tbtc]

Manchester Airport rail station already has good quality diesel units serving this station, with the exception of the Class 142 Pacers, which would be unimagineable serving Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted airports. Please do not visit expectations of a Class 153 single unit service upon us.

Other Airports get Pacers. Liverpool John Lennon. Teesside/ Durham Tees Valley...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I highly doubt Northern have anything spare right now - especially the overcrowding in some areas!

This is why I'm against new/extended diesel service until we can cope with the demand on existing ones.

A link like Derby - Manchester Airport sounds grand, but it's a luxury when we can't even cope with current passenger volumes.

 

[northwichcat]

Other Airports get Pacers. Liverpool John Lennon. Teesside/ Durham Tees Valley...

Leeds/Bradford, Robin Hood and Blackpool Airports also have Pacers serving the nearest rail stations to the Airports.

 

[tbtc]

Leeds/Bradford, Robin Hood and Blackpool Airports also have Pacers serving the nearest rail stations to the Airports.

Yes, but as Leeds Bradford/ Doncaster Sheffield don't have dedicated Airport stations I didn't refer to them because someone is bound to pick up on something like that...

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but as Leeds Bradford/ Doncaster Sheffield don't have dedicated Airport stations I didn't refer to them because someone is bound to pick up on something like that...

True but they do have shuttle buses to the Airport from the town/city centre station. Also, Teeside Airport station gets less than 100 journeys made to or from it per year and I'd guess at more of them being rail enthuaists than Airport passengers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

True but they do have shuttle buses to the Airport from the town/city centre station. Also, Teeside Airport station gets less than 100 journeys made to or from it per year and I'd guess at more of them being rail enthuaists than Airport passengers.

The reason why I mentioned Pacers using Manchester Airport is that Manchester Airport, with its total passenger loadings, tries to portray itself as an international airport of repute.

Just imagine if all the air fleet carriers had their normal high quality planes, then one carrier ran their services with the plane version of a Pacer

Pacers are not exactly what you would expect or hope to find at airports of that calibre. Airports of this size should expect fast and modern rolling stock on the trains that their passengers use.

 

[northwichcat]

The reason why I mentioned Pacers using Manchester Airport is that Manchester Airport, with its total passenger loadings, tries to portray itself as an international airport of repute.

Just imagine if all the air fleet carriers had their normal high quality planes, then one carrier ran their services with the plane version of a Pacer

Pacers are not exactly what you would expect or hope to find at airports of that calibre. Airports of this size should expect fast and modern rolling stock on the trains that their passengers use.

Before Liverpool South Parkway station opened it was a common occurance for a bus from the Airport to arrive at Lime Street and a load of French/Spanish/German tourists to alight and then proceed to catch a train. Commonly it was the CT/TPE services they caught at Lime Street but I'm sure some caught Pacers.