Liverpool Transpennine services

[cheesecake]

I was just wondering, what's the reason that the majority of FTPE trains on the Transpennine North route originate from and terminate at Manchester Airport rather than to/from Liverpool Lime Street? Is it because the passenger demand for MIA is greater than that to Lime Street? Or because there simply isn't space to terminate at Lime Street?

It just bugs me that Liverpool, one of the biggest cities in the UK, has appauling
connections to destinations in the north compared to Manchester Airport, which isn't even Manchester's main station.

 

[DarloRich]

Could it to be to do with capacity problems through Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[cheesecake]

But they pass through Piccadilly and on to Airport.. so why in theory they could pass through Piccadilly and on to Lime Street instead right?

 

[ainsworth74]

I suspect it's mostly a capacity issue both in terms of at Liverpool Lime Street station itself but also the line between Liverpool and Manchester. If you were to have all the TPE North services terminate at Liverpool you would be adding an extra 3 train per hour each way, which is a pretty significant number of services. I doubt there is capacity. It could also lead to stock issues, TPE has to get pretty good turn around out of it's stock and the extra journey times involved would probably cause diagramming issues.

Also whilst Manchester Airport isn't Manchester's main station all those services also call at Piccadilly which is one of Manchester's main stations

 

[cheesecake]

I go to Lime Street quite frequently, and it seems to me that most of the time, there are platforms that are empty for a good half an hour. Surely this would give a TPE train enough time to turn around? Even if it's just one extra train to Liverpool (say the newcastle one), it would be better than terminating it at Manchester Airport - and it would still go through Piccadilly.

 

[DarloRich]

I think i am trying to say tht to get to platform 13/14 from the Guide Bridge enbd you have tocross the entire station throat. There might not be the sapce in the timetable. More so now you have the VHF Virgin system.

To go to the airport you run into the station, stop for a bit then run back roughly the same way

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I was just wondering, what's the reason that the majority of FTPE trains on the Transpennine North route originate from and terminate at Manchester Airport rather than to/from Liverpool Lime Street? Is it because the passenger demand for MIA is greater than that to Lime Street? Or because there simply isn't space to terminate at Lime Street?

It just bugs me that Liverpool, one of the biggest cities in the UK, has appauling
connections to destinations in the north compared to Manchester Airport, which isn't even Manchester's main station.

All the First TPE services were planned to serve what was anticipated to be the highest travel numbers expected from the planned routes. Manchester Airport station was selected a a terminal for a northern hub airport such as Manchester with international and local air routes. Liverpool South Parkway now has a station which welcomes air passengers for Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

Liverpool has the disadvantage in geographical terms that being a seaport, it does not have the number a radial routes that Manchester as being in an inland position has. This is a fact of life.

The Ordsall Chord project will not improve matters for Liverpool as this will end up with Manchester having two large city stations in both Piccadilly and Victoria. The only city to city improvement will be the electrification of the Liverpool to Manchester line. Whilst Liverpool sees the third rail electrification of most of its own suburban routes as the way forward, such as the extension to Chester, the main hard-rail routes from Lime Street would need total re-evaluation if you wish expansion on the scope that you desire.

 

[ivanhoe]

Hourly ( at least) direct trains to London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Norwich. Liverpool is the end of the line and will always be limited. The TPE service of one an hour is sufficient. Would like to see A TPE to say Windamere but with hourly Blackpool trains, this will not happen. Liverpool does okay for direct trains and the Brum trains give it good connections to the X Country routes. Indeed if you are looking to expand direct trains, it would be to nonTPE areas such as Wales. Until Liverpool and Wales talk to each other politically, then the 'Chord' will not be re-opened.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I believe that on Sundays some TPE North trains (Middlesbrough at least) go through to Liverpool Lime Street, don't know about Mon-Sat.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The historic trans-pennine route until the 80s was Lime St-Manchester Ex/Vic-Leeds-Hull/Newcastle. It was rerouted via the CLC route and Piccadilly as part of the concentration of long-distance services at Piccadilly, resulting in the run-down of the direct route via Chat Moss and Victoria. Partly this was also due to the strength of intermediate traffic at Warrington Central compared to St Helens Jn/Newton-le-Willows etc.

The current choice of trans-pennine destinations is very odd. Scarborough is hardly top of the list of destinations wanted by Liverpudlians, but it's what DfT specifies. Services seem unnecessarily skewed towards Manchester Airport and carry largely, in the jargon, "fresh air", while Manchester-Liverpool services are jammed.

The Northern Hub will reverse the routeing policy and allow fast Liverpool-Leeds services via a redeveloped Victoria, but the downside is that Warrington, Birchwood and Liverpool South Parkway will lose direct services to Leeds.

One of the paradoxes of the Chat Moss electrification is that trans-pennine services can't take advantage of it (unless they get IEP stock).

 

[northwichcat]

Scarborough is hardly top of the list of destinations wanted by Liverpudlians, but it's what DfT specifies.

When the new TPE franchise was issued it specifically stated that more consistent services would be provided than before.

Liverpool-Scarborough interworks with Liverpool-Norwich to give a 1/2 hourly express frequency between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington. While Liverpool-Norwich interworks with Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes to give a 1/2 hourly express frequency between Manchester and Sheffield.

Newcastle-Man Airport and Middlesbrough-Man Airport operate to give a 1/2 hourly York-Manchester Airport service.

Although, an inconsistency exists between York and Huddersfield/Manchester being 3tph but being a 30 minute gap.

I also imagine they took in to consideration that the previous Liverpool-Newcastle-Sunderland route was a long one and so it's harder to keep it to a punctual timetable, while the new routes of Newcastle-Airport and Scarborough-Liverpool aren't as long.

 

[MCR247]

The current choice of trans-pennine destinations is very odd. Scarborough is hardly top of the list of destinations wanted by Liverpudlians, but it's what DfT specifies. Services seem unnecessarily skewed towards Manchester Airport and carry largely, in the jargon, "fresh air", while Manchester-Liverpool services are jammed.

Erm I'll think you'll find a lot of them aren't. I tried to get a 185 to Newcastle from Piccadilly, and it was already full. Not even any 1st class seats

 

[Masbroughlad]

When I was growing up in the 70s, South TP trains served Cleethorpes and Hull directly from Manchester Pic (no Airport atation then).

Why did Manchester-Hull move to north TP?

Did Liverpool have some south TP services as well? I think it probably did?

 

[northwichcat]

When I was growing up in the 70s, South TP trains served Cleethorpes and Hull directly from Manchester Pic (no Airport atation then).

Why did Manchester-Hull move to north TP?

There's been a lot of service changes since the 70s Holyhead-Scarborough used to exist as a North TPE service and now you can't even do that in one change. You can still do Manchester-Hull via Sheffield in one change.

I would imagine it's partly down to demand. Leeds is bigger than Sheffield, Huddersfield is bigger than Doncaster and a line between Manchester and Sheffield was closed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When the new TPE franchise was issued it specifically stated that more consistent services would be provided than before.

Liverpool-Scarborough interworks with Liverpool-Norwich to give a 1/2 hourly express frequency between Liverpool and Manchester via Warrington. While Liverpool-Norwich interworks with Manchester Airport to Cleethorphes to give a 1/2 hourly express frequency between Manchester and Sheffield.

Newcastle-Man Airport and Middlesbrough-Man Airport operate to give a 1/2 hourly York-Manchester Airport service.

Although, an inconsistency exists between York and Huddersfield/Manchester being 3tph but being a 30 minute gap.

I also imagine they took in to consideration that the previous Liverpool-Newcastle-Sunderland route was a long one and so it's harder to keep it to a punctual timetable, while the new routes of Newcastle-Airport and Scarborough-Liverpool aren't as long.

You have expressed the case perfectly. I would say that there is a very lucrative business in carrying airline passengers to and from Manchester Airport, especially on the number of routes that are now available from Manchester. I use services to Manchester Airport on a very regular basis and find there are now many reserved seats booked to and from the airport, both for business and leisure travellers. Only a few days ago, the service from the airport to Newcastle had every single seat in the first carriage (all open class) reserved for passengers travelling home from the airport to Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. I asked the member of train staff who had been putting the reservation cards in place and he said that 2011 had seen a big increase in Manchester Airport reservations by travel companies on behalf of their clients both to and from the airport.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You have expressed the case perfectly. I would say that there is a very lucrative business in carrying airline passengers to and from Manchester Airport, especially on the number of routes that are now available from Manchester. I use services to Manchester Airport on a very regular basis and find there are now many reserved seats booked to and from the airport, both for business and leisure travellers. Only a few days ago, the service from the airport to Newcastle had every single seat in the first carriage (all open class) reserved for passengers travelling home from the airport to Leeds, York, Darlington and Newcastle. I asked the member of train staff who had been putting the reservation cards in place and he said that 2011 had seen a big increase in Manchester Airport reservations by travel companies on behalf of their clients both to and from the airport.

But a bit more luggage space wouldn't go amiss.

 

[VideozVideoz]

But they pass through Piccadilly and on to Airport.. so why in theory they could pass through Piccadilly and on to Lime Street instead right?

When trains arrive into Piccadilly from Leeds/Newcastle/Sheffield they come in on platforms 1-12 then have to reverse out to get to Manchester Airport. Liverpool Lime Street is in the opposite direction and these 'through trains' come in on platform 14 and make their way out towards Warrington/Liverpool. This bit of track is VERY congested with no more capacity available at present.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But a bit more luggage space wouldn't go amiss.

I think that when the Class 185 were designed, the amount of luggage space would have been considered, but only for standard commercial passenger transportation.

The lack of the amount of available luggage space will ALWAYS be accentuated when a major hub airport such as Manchester Airport is served.

How do the units serving Stansted fare in lugge space capacity compared with the Class 185 units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When trains arrive into Piccadilly from Leeds/Newcastle/Sheffield they come in on platforms 1-12 then have to reverse out to get to Manchester Airport. Liverpool Lime Street is in the opposite direction and these 'through trains' come in on platform 14 and make their way out towards Warrington/Liverpool. This bit of track is VERY congested with no more capacity available at present.

Again, you state the case to perfection. Look to the future. When the Ordsall Chord is built, they will not be coming via Guide Bridge as at present, but will proceed from Stalybridge via the junction at Miles Platting, then through Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly then on to Manchester Airport.

 

[mallard]

Hourly ( at least) direct trains to London, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough, Norwich.

Which sounds impressive until you realize that Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough and Norwich is all the same train!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I think that when the Class 185 were designed, the amount of luggage space would have been considered, but only for standard commercial passenger transportation.

The lack of the amount of available luggage space will ALWAYS be accentuated when a major hub airport such as Manchester Airport is served.

How do the units serving Stansted fare in lugge space capacity compared with the Class 185 units.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Again, you state the case to perfection. Look to the future. When the Ordsall Chord is built, they will not be coming via Guide Bridge as at present, but will proceed from Stalybridge via the junction at Miles Platting, then through Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly then on to Manchester Airport.

Actually, You're wrong entirely about the Luggage Space.

A mock-up of the 185 was at the Railway 200 event at the NRM, some time before. People where asked about what changes would be recommended. I Personally pointed out that A) Not enough Luggage Space, B) No Window in the Toilet.

I spoke to the MD of First Group at the time. So, they were aware, but did nothing to alleviate the problems, of bags and cases in the doorways, causing a potentially dangerous tripping hazard among other things.

 

[MCR247]

But maybe more luggage space is needed, but then that would take up valuable seating space the busy commuter trains need?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Actually, You're wrong entirely about the Luggage Space.

A mock-up of the 185 was at the Railway 200 event at the NRM, some time before. People where asked about what changes would be recommended. I Personally pointed out that A) Not enough Luggage Space, B) No Window in the Toilet.

I spoke to the MD of First Group at the time. So, they were aware, but did nothing to alleviate the problems, of bags and cases in the doorways, causing a potentially dangerous tripping hazard among other things.

I am sure that when the mock up of the 185 was at the event at the NRM, general comments were made by members of the public. You quote luggage space and the problems of bags and luggage near doorways as two points that you raised at the event.

However, before entering service, the designs had to be stringently
vetted and there were various stages gone through with various bodies before construction started.

All I will say again is that the Class 185 units are a victim of their own success in the numbers of business and leisure passengers travelling to and from Manchester Airport. Read the point that I made about the increase in seat reservations on airport services in 2011.

No-one yet has answered my point as to the luggage capacity on the units running to and from Stansted Airport, as the new train terminals for that airport and Manchester Airport were being planned at the same time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which sounds impressive until you realize that Sheffield, Nottingham, Peterborough and Norwich is all the same train!

It takes a keen brain like yours to have sifted that one out. But it looked good....at first view!!

 

[MCR247]

So you are asking to compare a dedicated airport express train to a train that serves the airport but also has to act also as an InterCity and commuter unit :roll:

 

[Andrew Nelson]

So you are asking to compare a dedicated airport express train to a train that serves the airport but also has to act also as an InterCity and commuter unit :roll:

The one I was on from Man Pic on sunday eve(20:11) was from Lime Street, and that had major Luggage problems. So, Airport or not, these units are not FFP.

To short for Comuters, and not enough room for luggage when to/from MIA.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The one I was on from Man Pic on sunday eve(20:11) was from Lime Street, and that had major Luggage problems. So, Airport or not, these units are not FFP.

To short for Comuters, and not enough room for luggage when to/from MIA.

The Class 185 units when first mooted were possibly to have been 4-coach sets would definately had more seating capacity than the 3-coach sets that were eventually supplied. No-one would deny that. Look at the forecasted growth in official figures for Manchester Airport.

With regard to your problem with luggage in your first paragraph, I can only say the same thing over and over again......trains using Manchester Airport are a victim of their own marketing department, who have done a great job on behalf of First TPE. It is up to First TPE to resolve this problem and I am sure that fedback from passengers and their own on-train staff is in their hands. But we all know what Pontius Pilate did...he washed his hands of the matter....What will First TPE do to resolve the luggage problems on their trains to and from Manchester Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you are asking to compare a dedicated airport express train to a train that serves the airport but also has to act also as an InterCity and commuter unit :roll:

What you have to be aware of is the official forecasted capacity of both Manchester Airport and Stansted Airport from 2000 onwards. Yes, Stanstead does have a dedicated airport express train service....what else would you expect in the South-East with all the vested interests there!!!! By the way, was it not true that BAA were told to sell off that airport as part of the three that they were told to divest?

The point that I am making is the comparison of rail transportation for both business and leisure air travellers that exists at present between these two airports. Look at the planned growth from 2000 to 2025 of both of these. I can only quote the current method of rail transportation to both of these airports, as that is the only method available, noting what train units are ACTUALLY used by the rail operators concerned.

 

[Masbroughlad]

Would we be better with no through trains from anywhere else that come in from Man Pic. ie no Newcastle - Airport, Cleethorpes - Airport etc and just have a dedicated, frequent, FFP Manchester Pic to Airport express service every ten minutes or so?

That would free up some long distance trains and solve airport train overcrowding?

Just a thought! I actually think through trains to other parts of the country are a good idea!

 

[Whistler40145]

Why doesn't FTPE route several Liverpool to Newcastle services per day via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Why doesn't FTPE route several Liverpool to Newcastle services per day via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria?

Used to, untill all were re-routed through Pic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Class 185 units when first mooted were possibly to have been 4-coach sets would definately had more seating capacity than the 3-coach sets that were eventually supplied. No-one would deny that. Look at the forecasted growth in official figures for Manchester Airport.

With regard to your problem with luggage in your first paragraph, I can only say the same thing over and over again......trains using Manchester Airport are a victim of their own marketing department, who have done a great job on behalf of First TPE. It is up to First TPE to resolve this problem and I am sure that fedback from passengers and their own on-train staff is in their hands. But we all know what Pontius Pilate did...he washed his hands of the matter....What will First TPE do to resolve the luggage problems on their trains to and from Manchester Airport.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What you have to be aware of is the official forecasted capacity of both Manchester Airport and Stansted Airport from 2000 onwards. Yes, Stanstead does have a dedicated airport express train service....what else would you expect in the South-East with all the vested interests there!!!! By the way, was it not true that BAA were told to sell off that airport as part of the three that they were told to divest?

The point that I am making is the comparison of rail transportation for both business and leisure air travellers that exists at present between these two airports. Look at the planned growth from 2000 to 2025 of both of these. I can only quote the current method of rail transportation to both of these airports, as that is the only method available, noting what train units are ACTUALLY used by the rail operators concerned.

Read it again.

There are problems when trains DON'T serve the Airport too. Not enough space for normal "Non-Airport" services.

 

[ivanhoe]

Why doesn't FTPE route several Liverpool to Newcastle services per day via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria?

Rolling Stock Issues aside;

I reckon there is no Business Case to go via Chat Moss
It would not give passengers an opportunity to use Liverpool South Parkway for John Lennon Airport.
Until Victoria is re-united with Picadilly, can't see much passenger growth via Chat Moss
Opportunities to change at either York or Leeds give plenty of opportunities for Lime Street.

I reckon that 1 per hour is about right. Some services could do with lengthening but all the dosh is Manchester to Leeds. Good connections are the key to a successful TPE operation .

 

[northwichcat]

Why doesn't FTPE route several Liverpool to Newcastle services per day via Chat Moss & Manchester Victoria?

Less demand for numerous reasons:
1. Piccadilly is a bigger station with more interchange options, therefore more passengers will be picked up.
2. More people live in the Warrington area than the Earlestown/Newton-le-Willows area.

Plus there's no rolling stock to run that as an additional service opposed to re-routing existing services.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are problems when trains DON'T serve the Airport too. Not enough space for normal "Non-Airport" services.

The many universities on the TPE network help produce a lot of luggage:
Liverpool x 3
Manchester (effectively x 3 although UMIST merged)
Huddersfield
Leeds x 2
Hull x 2
York
Durham
Newcastle x 2
Salford
Bolton
Preston
Lancaster
Carlisle
Glasgow x 2?
Edinburgh x 2?