Liverpool Transpennine services

[Whistler40145]

Was being thick regarding the Hull-Liverpool service, sorry all.

I really meant a new limited stop service to Liverpool via Doncaster with portions from Hull & Cleethorpes being coupled together as one service from Doncaster, also a new Hull to Manchester Airport service via Victoria, Ordsall Chord & Piccadilly.

This is assuming that extra paths are available.

If any FTPE services from Liverpool or Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield terminate at Leeds, extend these through to Hull, this would provide Selby etc with extra services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If you mean putting a "Hull" portion onto the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service (?), then I think that's a good thing. (ignoring arguments about stock for a moment, pretending its 158s) it'd allow at least four coaches west of Doncaster (the busiest section) with a couple of coaches for both Cleethorpes and Hull. That seems like a good allocation of stock, given the need for increased capacity through Sheffield.

Hull - Selby - Leeds could pass to Northern, to run alongside their existing Hull - Selby (York) and Selby - Leeds (Caldervale) services.

Since Hull may be tricky to electrify (swing bridge at Selby being the reason?), this would allow for a direct Hull - Manchester service to remain if and when the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York line is inevitably electrified.

Plus, for the sake of balance, you'd need another Sheffield - Doncaster service (if the existing Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull service is absorbed into the Cleethorpes route), but at least this could serve Rotherham or other local stations en route, if its not longer for longer distance passengers.

I'm glad you mentioned the swing bridge at Selby when discussing future electrification. This bridge, as constructed, has been a rail problem for any modernisation plans.

I like your idea, as stated, of a second Sheffield to Doncaster service, coupled with improvements for Rotherham.

 

[Anvil1984]

To be perfectly honest Selby has enough services already in my opinion, the stopping service from Leeds during off peak periods carry single figure passenger counts between South Milford and Selby and to be honest on the current timetable I would turn the set around at Micklefield (if the facilities existed) and stop the Manchester - Hull express at South Milford as per the evenings and Sunday and maybe Garforth also. Currently running the stopper to Selby is a waste of a 2 / 3 car set that could be elsewhere

 

[northwichcat]

To be perfectly honest Selby has enough services already in my opinion, the stopping service from Leeds during off peak periods carry single figure passenger counts between South Milford and Selby and to be honest on the current timetable I would turn the set around at Micklefield (if the facilities existed) and stop the Manchester - Hull express at South Milford as per the evenings and Sunday and maybe Garforth also. Currently running the stopper to Selby is a waste of a 2 / 3 car set that could be elsewhere

If it wasn't for an unfortunate incident most people wouldn't even know Selby exists. It has a population of just 13000. A town in a non-PTE area with that kind of population would not get so many trains stopping at it.

 

[Anvil1984]

Selby isn't in a PTE area

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it wasn't for an unfortunate incident most people wouldn't even know Selby exists. It has a population of just 13000. A town in a non-PTE area with that kind of population would not get so many trains stopping at it.

But it does have a very well known religious building that actually has a senior member of the Anglican Church in residence. You will find that it appears on many tourist itineraries and having a rail service with good links is of great help. This is more than can be said of Ripon, whose rail link ceased long ago, but which still has much tourist appeal and a similar religious building (Saxon...not Norman) and Fountains Abbey in close proximetry.

Walsingham is another example of a place similarly blessed with a very small population, but a tremendous visitor potential.....yet their only railway now is the narrow-gauge Wells and Walsingham Railway. Yes, I am old enough to have used that original 4 foot 8 1/2 inch gauge rail line to the coast at Wells next the Sea in my early days on holiday

Not every place has to be decried solely on the population levels within their local authority area boundaries.....other factors also come into play.

 

[Welshman]

But it does have a very well known religious building that actually has a senior member of the Anglican Church in residence. You will find that it appears on many tourist itineraries and having a rail service with good links is of great help.

Sorry, but I didn't realise that Bishop Wallace of Selby [who, incidentally, lives in Malton], was that senior in the CofE!

Not like the Archbishop of York, who lives in Bishopthorpe Palace, near York, of course!

 

[Nym]

MESSAGE FOR NYM

In the link that you were so kind to include on this thread recently, that showed a terminal station on Broadway, near to the junction with Middleton Road, was this not formerly the site of the L & Y coal depot that was served from Middleton Junction station which itself came off the very steep incline from Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth?

Paul; for one why do you always start posts replying to me like that, it's rather irritating, and yes, I beleive it was a coal depot, I was sudgesting a Park & Ride site there, not a passenger station. If you want to post things to make me sound thick, at least read my whole post.

 

[tbtc]

Currently running the stopper to Selby is a waste of a 2 / 3 car set that could be elsewhere

Especially given the long layover there on the "Grand Tour" duties - what a waste of time

 

[Anvil1984]

Its to give Micklefield - Leeds (plus New Pudsey, Bradford and Halifax) a near half hourly service however the way it is done means units are sat at York and Selby for a good 50 odd minutes which is a waste. I'd make it so that there were 2 stopping services to York (will be especially useful for race days) and South Milford gets put on the Hull TPE route, but thats for another topic and another argument

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry, but I didn't realise that Bishop Wallace of Selby [who, incidentally, lives in Malton], was that senior in the CofE!

Not like the Archbishop of York, who lives in Bishopthorpe Palace, near York, of course!

Nice to see that you are on the ball

It was only this Tuesday when my wife and I were visiting York Minster and saw Bishop Wallace's seat in the Chapter House, suitably reserved with a card with his name and title upon it. There was some excitement about 1030 as there was a false fire alarm that caused a total evacuation, which was well organized, considering most visitors at that time were three guided tours of German speaking people with their own organizers. However, after clearance by the fire brigade who sent two fire tenders within 4 minutes, we finished our visit.

I think that if you reach the status of Bishop, you are qualified enough to be regarded as a senior person of the ecclesiastical confreternity.....and Malton is still a nice place for him to use as his abode.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paul; for one why do you always start posts replying to me like that, it's rather irritating, and yes, I beleive it was a coal depot, I was sudgesting a Park & Ride site there, not a passenger station. If you want to post things to make me sound thick, at least read my whole post.

Point taken........ I will be more careful in future.:roll:

I did say "terminal station" ... NOT A PASSENGER STATION....in my reply as I would consider London Victoria coach station to be a "terminal station" for vehicles and I consider that a Park and Ride site in such a described situation to be a terminal station for vehicles. But that is my own particular logic.

 

[Welshman]

Nice to see that you are on the ball

I think that if you reach the status of Bishop, you are qualified enough to be regarded as a senior person of the ecclesiastical confreternity.....and Malton is still a nice place for him to use as his abode.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agreed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If it wasn't for an unfortunate incident most people wouldn't even know Selby exists. It has a population of just 13000. A town in a non-PTE area with that kind of population would not get so many trains stopping at it.

May be a subtle move by the C of E to run an ecclesiastical TOC joining Beverley, Hull, Selby, York and Durham.....with York at its hub, already having both Church and Train high status.

Ensures good attendancies at Synod meetings and a High Church ban on the use of ANY sort of Pacer....as this will come under the heading of Penance.

 

[northwichcat]

Not every place has to be decried solely on the population levels within their local authority area boundaries.....other factors also come into play.

True but tourist levels are more seasonal. If a lot of the benefit is for tourists then extra services/carriages should be restricted to the times when there are the highest numbers of tourists visiting otherwise you get very few people boarding and alighting each service as Anvil1984 has pointed out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

True but tourist levels are more seasonal. If a lot of the benefit is for tourists then extra services/carriages should be restricted to the times when there are the highest numbers of tourists visiting otherwise you get very few people boarding and alighting each service as Anvil1984 has pointed out.

We are now beginning to conjoin with another two threads on differing parts of this forum which is the pro's and cons of Blackpool as a resort, its trams (old and new), its tourist trade et al and transport links in the peak holiday season. There are seasonal transport links by rail...Dalesrail immediately springs to mind as a dedicated specific entity. I have taken on board the points made by Anvil1984 in his submissions to this matter, which I did appreciate.

But your idea of extra services/carriages being included at peak visitor periods on the standard rail connections to Selby is totally correct. This is the solution to that particular tourist potential question.

I knew that I could trust you to come up with the best solution

 

[tbtc]

But your idea of extra services/carriages being included at peak visitor periods on the standard rail connections to Selby is totally correct. This is the solution to that particular tourist potential question.

I knew that I could trust you to come up with the best solution

There was a similar thread here recently criticising ATW for not having spare stock to run summer holiday services to Welsh tourist destinations.

These ideas (like extra Selby trains) sound nice, but nobody has answered the issue of what this stock is doing the rest of the day/week/year.

As for Selby, its as much a case of "somewhere to terminate" (like Bedwyn on the line from London through Newbury), rather than any massive demand for end to end journeys. Whilst its not in the WY Metro boundaries, it's a logical place to terminate, since there are connections towards Hull (Northern services from York to Hull, Hull trains from London etc)

 

[northwichcat]

These ideas (like extra Selby trains) sound nice, but nobody has answered the issue of what this stock is doing the rest of the day/week/year.

Yes that's an issue. In the North West I can think of the following:

Grand National Week: Extra trains on Merseyside services
Week after Grand National Week-September: Extra trains on Blackpool services for summer holiday makers.
September-November: Extra trains on Blackpool services for illuminations.
November-December: Extra trains on Manchester and Liverpool services for Christmas shoppers.

Those wouldn't be the only use of extra carriages but the main focus. However, it still leaves January-early April with no real use for extra trains (ignoring overcrowding which we all know needs addressing first.)

 

[Welshman]

May be a subtle move by the C of E to run an ecclesiastical TOC joining Beverley, Hull, Selby, York and Durham.....with York at its hub, already having both Church and Train high status.

Ensures good attendancies at Synod meetings and a High Church ban on the use of ANY sort of Pacer....as this will come under the heading of Penance.

Perhaps steam locomotives could be re-introduced instead. Just think of the sacramental imagery of fire, smoke and water!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes that's an issue. In the North West I can think of the following:

Grand National Week: Extra trains on Merseyside services
Week after Grand National Week-September: Extra trains on Blackpool services for summer holiday makers.
September-November: Extra trains on Blackpool services for illuminations.
November-December: Extra trains on Manchester and Liverpool services for Christmas shoppers.

Those wouldn't be the only use of extra carriages but the main focus. However, it still leaves January-early April with no real use for extra trains (ignoring overcrowding which we all know needs addressing first.)

This is when Northern can introduce their version of Club 55 from January to early April (which amazingly was the time period this year when ATW ran their Club 55) which will bring out the pensioners (like me) in their droves to take advantage of this offer. Old ones, like me, are not put off by a bit of cold weather in the early months of the year. YOUR ANALYSIS IS NOW COMPLETE.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps steam locomotives could be re-introduced instead. Just think of the sacramental imagery of fire, smoke and water!

The mind boggles.....numerous bishops coupled with absolute hordes of steam buffs It will be like The Second Coming

Still, there is a precedent for this. Do you remember the Bishop acting as fireman in the film "THE TITFIELD THUNDERBOLT"...or have you not attained my age yet?

 

[IanXC]

Was being thick regarding the Hull-Liverpool service, sorry all.

I really meant a new limited stop service to Liverpool via Doncaster with portions from Hull & Cleethorpes being coupled together as one service from Doncaster, also a new Hull to Manchester Airport service via Victoria, Ordsall Chord & Piccadilly.

This is assuming that extra paths are available.

If any FTPE services from Liverpool or Manchester Airport/Manchester Piccadilly via Huddersfield terminate at Leeds, extend these through to Hull, this would provide Selby etc with extra services.

Presumably as a North TPE service the Hull-Man Picc will be routed Vic-Ordsall-Picc in due course anyway?

Agree with other posters that Selby probably has enough services currently, especially given that the new ECML timetable will result in a more regular interval Northern service York-Selby, with as I understand it most services extended to Hull.

Incidentally that increase in Northern Selby-Hull services is apparently pushing capacity on the route, presumably increasing the BCR for Electrification higher. I think that if there are to be further Hull TPE services it'll be via increasing frequencies on the current route rather than a new route via Doncaster.

If York-Scarborough is removed from the Liverpool service and added to the York-Blackpool service, does anyone know what the timings would look like if the remaining Liverpool-York became Liverpool-Hull via York?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Seeing all the views expressed on Liverpool trans-Pennine services where Warrington was a topic, it would have been interesting to have seen a real-time thread poll showing which line through Warrington would have been favoured. This was done on the thread asking which company should receive the Class 180 units which are to be cascaded.

On a different mattter, would there be any strategic use for a Liverpool - Blackburn - Leeds service?

 

[Nym]

On a different mattter, would there be any strategic use for a Liverpool - Blackburn - Leeds service?

No, unless it was kniting together two of Northern's current services at preston.

 

[Invincibles]

Could use the south chord near Lostock.

No idea whether it would have any demand though, it would definitely make Wigan and Liverpool much more accessible from Blackburn (and presumably Bamber Bridge would get a stop)

 

[Whistler40145]

I consider Class 180s would be a waste being used via Burnley/Hebden Bridge, they need a higher speed line to work on.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Recently, there were proposals put forward in various threads concerning implications that may occur under the Ordsall Chord plans that could prevent reversals across the throat of Manchester Piccadilly for First TPE services eminating from Manchester Airport under the rescheduling of services through the through platforms there. It was futher stated that this would also make matters easier for the Virgin and Cross Country services if such reversals were banned to enable clearer free pathways.

There is one First TPE service from Manchester Airport that the Ordsall Chord plans do not affect and that is the service to Cleethorpes which still requires reversal at Manchester Piccadilly.

I have just received a letter from First TPE, in which it states:-
"The diversion of Manchester Airport to Sheffield/Cleethorpes services via Manchester Victoria to avoid reversal at Manchester Piccadilly would add considerably to the journey time. It is envisaged that these trains will retain their existing route, reversing at Manchester Piccadilly and running via Stockport."

I think that now clarifies the matter, in that reversals will still occur at Manchester Piccadilly for certain services to and from Manchester Airport.

 

[Invincibles]

As someone who advocated the potential removal of that service then I am well aware it will continue to run.

Any clarification if any service through Stalybridge will reverse through the main platforms at Piccadilly. As those are very different to the Cleethorpes train (which actually runs into P10(ish) normally and as such is well across the platforms before it reaches the throat.

 

[Welshman]

[QUOTE
- from Paul Sidorczuk:-

The mind boggles.....numerous bishops coupled with absolute hordes of steam buffs It will be like The Second Coming

Still, there is a precedent for this. Do you remember the Bishop acting as fireman in the film "THE TITFIELD THUNDERBOLT"...or have you not attained my age yet?[/QUOTE]

I've not only attained your age, I've also worked under the late Bishop Eric Treacy, who, as you will know, was happier on a loco footplate than in a pulpit!

There's a lovely photo in Gerry Fiennes's "Fiennes On Rails" of him and Eric Treacy on the footplate of "Matthew Murray" on the Middleton Railway, and an amusing tale follows of what happened when a Bishop was driver and the General Manager of the Eastern Region was fireman!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Could use the south chord near Lostock.

No idea whether it would have any demand though, it would definitely make Wigan and Liverpool much more accessible from Blackburn (and presumably Bamber Bridge would get a stop)

I had in mind that the Liverpool train would proceed through Wigan, then northwards up the WCML to the east facing junction near to Bamber Bridge, where it would carry on to Blackburn. I envisage the train to be a semi-fast service stopping at St.Helens, Wigan, Bamber Bridge, Blackburn, Accrington, Burnley,Todmorden, Hebden Bridge,then via the junction to Dewsbury and Leeds.

It has been very many years since there were direct services from Liverpool to Blackburn and the East Lancashire area. I thank you for your response in the final part of your reply to my original idea.

 

[gnolife]

As someone who advocated the potential removal of that service then I am well aware it will continue to run.

Any clarification if any service through Stalybridge will reverse through the main platforms at Piccadilly. As those are very different to the Cleethorpes train (which actually runs into P10(ish) normally and as such is well across the platforms before it reaches the throat.

Cleethorpes from Platform 10? ive never seen that

MIA -> Cleethorpes usually goes from 6 or 7
Cleethorpes -> MIA usualy goes from 12

these are based on personal observation, having travelled on this service at several different times of every day of the week

 

[tbtc]

Recently, there were proposals put forward in various threads concerning implications that may occur under the Ordsall Chord plans that could prevent reversals across the throat of Manchester Piccadilly for First TPE services eminating from Manchester Airport under the rescheduling of services through the through platforms there. It was futher stated that this would also make matters easier for the Virgin and Cross Country services if such reversals were banned to enable clearer free pathways.

There is one First TPE service from Manchester Airport that the Ordsall Chord plans do not affect and that is the service to Cleethorpes which still requires reversal at Manchester Piccadilly.

I have just received a letter from First TPE, in which it states:-
"The diversion of Manchester Airport to Sheffield/Cleethorpes services via Manchester Victoria to avoid reversal at Manchester Piccadilly would add considerably to the journey time. It is envisaged that these trains will retain their existing route, reversing at Manchester Piccadilly and running via Stockport."

I think that now clarifies the matter, in that reversals will still occur at Manchester Piccadilly for certain services to and from Manchester Airport.

... it's not really up to First though, if DFT say the service will change then the operator doesn't really get much of a say.