Liverpool Transpennine services

[northwichcat]

How on earth would a Hull-Llandudno train benefit anyone involved. As I understand it, the Hull - Manchester service can get very busy, so tacking another section onto it would be totally unviable, and the Manchester - Chester - Llandudno can get busy enough as well, all these changes would do would give nightmarish load/unload times on 13/14 for people who previously used the two sepearate services, and create another service having to cut straight across the throat of piccadilly
Also, I dont think one ofTPX and ATW would appreciate losing one of their busy services

I think you've just won the award for the most out of context quoting ever!

The suggestion was and hourly pattern of:
1. Scarborough to Liverpool via Victoria
2. Newcastle-Airport via Victoria and Piccadilly
3. Middlesbrough-Airport via Victoria and Piccadilly
4. Hull to Llandudno via Piccadilly and Warrington
5. Additional service between York and Manchester as suggested in RUS

The Hull-Llandudno service would actually save on paths through Piccadilly not cost more as most services from Llandudno shunt between platforms 13 and 14.

I also did mention the Welsh Assembly may not like the idea. It wouldn't be implemented before the new TPE franchise so it would be in the terms of the new franchise not changing the existing one.

 

[Nym]

I think you've just won the award for the most out of context quoting ever!

The suggestion was and hourly pattern of:
1. Scarborough to Liverpool via Victoria
2. Newcastle-Airport via Victoria and Piccadilly
3. Middlesbrough-Airport via Victoria and Piccadilly
4. Hull to Llandudno via Piccadilly and Warrington
5. Additional service between York and Manchester as suggested in RUS

The Hull-Llandudno service would actually save on paths through Piccadilly not cost more as most services from Llandudno shunt between platforms 13 and 14.

I also did mention the Welsh Assembly may not like the idea. It wouldn't be implemented before the new TPE franchise so it would be in the terms of the new franchise not changing the existing one.

One thing with that though;
Hull - Llandudno via Piccadilly? Please say you ment Hull - Llandudno via Victoria, we'd be back at square 1 with the current Scarbrough - Liverpool crossing all the tracks at piccadilly to get to platform 14. The only problem I can see with such a service is a lack of rolling stock with witch to run it, although it could initally be run as Hull - Chester, via Leeds & Warrington BQ using 185s that would be freed up from runs to Scotland and Blackpool, or perminantly 4 carrage turbostars.


Theres one other thing that is needed on the Diggle Route, and thats a 2tph stopping service to Huddersfeild (or extended to Bradford Interchange / Wakfeild). A modal shift from the areas of Saddleworth would not be difficult at all considering the quality of roads in the area, especially during morning rush hour. As a tempoary measure until more stock is available, is the bay at Greenfeild still available to use? Theres a heck of a lot of commuter traffic (or there was when I was there) through Greenfeild, and if it where to either have, peak hour additionals on some stations on the route, ie. stop a tpe in turn at each, or a second train in the hour on a clockface timetable to Victoria, would help a lot.

 

[northwichcat]

One thing with that though;
Hull - Llandudno via Piccadilly? Please say you ment Hull - Llandudno via Victoria, we'd be back at square 1 with the current Scarbrough - Liverpool crossing all the tracks at piccadilly to get to platform 14.

No I didn't. The problem with Liverpool-Scarborough only serving Victoria is that it'll leave an inconsistent service for Huddersfield and Leeds at Piccadilly. The Piccadilly connection for Huddersfield being particularly important because except for TPE services Huddersfield lacks long distance services.

I also don't think there would be room at Victoria for 5 North TPE services in each direction per hour.

The only problem I can see with such a service is a lack of rolling stock with witch to run it, although it could initally be run as Hull - Chester, via Leeds & Warrington BQ using 185s that would be freed up from runs to Scotland and Blackpool, or perminantly 4 carrage turbostars.

Extra stock is needed for North TPE anyway. I wasn't proposing an additional Llandudno-Manchester service but the existing could to be extended to Yorkshire to maintain a Warrington- West Yorkshire link.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No I didn't. The problem with Liverpool-Scarborough only serving Victoria is that it'll leave an inconsistent service for Huddersfield and Leeds at Piccadilly. The Piccadilly connection for Huddersfield being particularly important because except for TPE services Huddersfield lacks long distance services.

I also don't think there would be room at Victoria for 5 North TPE services in each direction per hour.



Extra stock is needed for North TPE anyway. I wasn't proposing an additional Llandudno-Manchester service but the existing could to be extended to Yorkshire to maintain a Warrington- West Yorkshire link.

Based on matters as they are at present, what do you think would be the maximum number of North TPE services per hour feasible through Manchester Victoria, once the Ordsall Chord proposals come to fruition...and what would these be?

I keep getting phone calls as to the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes route if no reversal is available at Piccadilly and also as to the likelihood of the Piccadilly to Hull service being started from Manchester Airport and using the Ordsall Chord, to which I only give a non-committal generalist reply. Do you have any thoughts on these two routes noting one is South TPE and the other is now North TPE?

I reasssure you that Warrington is never far from my mind....but that is not part of this particular issue.

 

[tbtc]

I also don't think there would be room at Victoria for 5 North TPE services in each direction per hour

Does anyone know a realistic hourly capacity for Victoria?

At the moment we are planning on shifting services from 13/14 at Piccadilly to Victoria instead, but will this just shift the problem elsewhere?

My only other comment on the suggestions made here is that I'd try to simplify the service patterns where possible to avoid conflicting movements and confused passengers. At the moment we have some confusing services (e.g. Blackpool has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly, Southport has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly, St Helens has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly...). This is the kind of thing which would put people off travelling. Much easier to give a consistent service (and allow for changes at Salford etc)

 

[northwichcat]

Based on matters as they are at present, what do you think would be the maximum number of North TPE services per hour feasible through Manchester Victoria, once the Ordsall Chord proposals come to fruition...and what would these be?

I think it is difficult to say for certain. The Ordsall Chord is one project. Another is Chat Moss electrification and a third is the extension of Metrolink to serve Oldham, Rochdale and Ashton. All these will have an effect on Victoria

In December 2008 when the regular Victoria-Blackpool services and third Calder Vale services were added many people were commenting on Victoria looking almost at maximum capacity at peak times.

What's done with the Huddersfield/Stalybridge to Victoria will have an effect on how many TPE services can use Victoria. Will these trains continue to serve Ashton after the Metrolink is sent there? If not will they be diverted to Piccadilly leaving two paths an hour for TPE to use Victoria? Or could some TPE services approach Manchester via Ashton and then not actually serve Victoria?

I keep getting phone calls as to the Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes route if no reversal is available at Piccadilly and also as to the likelihood of the Piccadilly to Hull service being started from Manchester Airport and using the Ordsall Chord, to which I only give a non-committal generalist reply. Do you have any thoughts on these two routes noting one is South TPE and the other is now North TPE?

Like I said already I think it's important for Piccadilly to keep a consistent service to Huddersfield and Leeds. If Liverpool-Scarborough doesn't serve Piccadilly I think the 5th North TPE option needs to be implemented.

One constraint we will still have after the Ordsall Chord is a number of other new lines which would be of great benefit will not exist and still be on the planning table. A Cleethorphes-Stockport-Airport-Piccadilly-Blackpool service would sound good but another new line would be needed between Stockport and the Airport.

A further constraint is the franchise system and joining up/extending services would require routes to be switched between operators and then there's a stock issue. My previous suggestion of a Hull-North Wales service would have these issues.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My only other comment on the suggestions made here is that I'd try to simplify the service patterns where possible to avoid conflicting movements and confused passengers. At the moment we have some confusing services (e.g. Blackpool has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly, Southport has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly, St Helens has two trains an hour into Manchester, one to Victoria and one to Piccadilly...). This is the kind of thing which would put people off travelling. Much easier to give a consistent service (and allow for changes at Salford etc)

The Dec 08 reshuffle to give Victoria a Blackpool service instead of Stockport and Piccadilly has certainly caused inconvenience and confusion in South Manchester/Cheshire.

Although having done Knutsford-Rainhill myself I can see advantages to services not being consistent.

My outbound journey was:
Knutsford-Piccadilly
Piccadilly-St Helens Junction (service from Airport-Lime Street)
St Helens Junction-Rainhill (service from Victoria-Lime Street)

My return journey was:
Rainhill-Newton-le-Willows (service from Lime Street-Huddersfield)
Newton-le-Willows to Piccadilly (service from Llandudno)
Piccadilly-Knutsford

Now had the fast service via Chat Moss also originated from Victoria my outbound service would have meant transferring between Piccadilly and Victoria or a significantly longer journey time.

It's good to have direct trains to both stations. However, Victoria links shouldn't be at the expense of Piccadilly links or vice versa.

Incidentally, St Helens has no services to Manchester. St Helens Junction has though.

 

[TheBigD]

I think that when the Class 185 were designed, the amount of luggage space would have been considered, but only for standard commercial passenger transportation.

The lack of the amount of available luggage space will ALWAYS be accentuated when a major hub airport such as Manchester Airport is served.

How do the units serving Stansted fare in lugge space capacity compared with the Class 185 units.

The 317's currently on the NXEA's Stansted service have mostly been fitted with additional luggage stacks. They are usaually in 8 car formation as well. There are no major issues with the amount of luggage space.

The 379's that have started to r4eplace them do have less luggage space but are still planned to operate as 8 (and 12) carformations.

The XC 170's that service Stansted do have issues with the limited luggage space, and luggage is frequently obstructing doors/aisles etc. It could be alleviated a little if the unused catering lockers on the 170's were unlocked and used as a luagge area.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

"Cleethorphes-Stockport-Airport-Piccadilly-Blackpool service"

Is it possible to get from Stockport, to MIA without going in/out of Manchester?

 

[tbtc]

"Cleethorphes-Stockport-Airport-Piccadilly-Blackpool service"

Is it possible to get from Stockport, to MIA without going in/out of Manchester?

Basically no, unless via Crewe or by bus.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Basically no, unless via Crewe or by bus.

Didn't think so.

 

[tbtc]

I think it is difficult to say for certain. The Ordsall Chord is one project. Another is Chat Moss electrification and a third is the extension of Metrolink to serve Oldham, Rochdale and Ashton. All these will have an effect on Victoria

In December 2008 when the regular Victoria-Blackpool services and third Calder Vale services were added many people were commenting on Victoria looking almost at maximum capacity at peak times

If 13/14 at Piccadilly can cope with around eight trains an hour then the four platforms at Victoria should have capacity for more services than they currently do, the critical thing is that "through" services clearly take up less platform time than terminators, the trouble is trying to avoid creating unreliable "through" services...

Like I said already I think it's important for Piccadilly to keep a consistent service to Huddersfield and Leeds. If Liverpool-Scarborough doesn't serve Piccadilly I think the 5th North TPE option needs to be implemented

If all TPE services were running via Victoria (as planned) , and the Airport services extending via the Ordsall Curve then the Liverpool - Scarborough service has to run via Victoria (Huddersfield clearly having two trains an hour to Piccadilly)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Basically no, unless via Crewe or by bus.

There have been many thoughts on connecting Stockport to Manchester Airport by use of the connection that might have been avaliable by a connection from the line serving Altrincham to Stockport connecting to the Styal line near to Gatley, but nothing concrete ever came out of this. The former M63 as it was became part of the orbital M60 and was given extra lanes, which took up much of the useful land available.

It would have given Sheffield a direct route to Manchester Airport without the need for reversal at Manchester Piccadilly as done at present by the Cleethorpes to Manchester First TPE service, which have made a reduction to the paths at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

There have been many thoughts on connecting Stockport to Manchester Airport by use of the connection that might have been avaliable by a connection from the line serving Altrincham to Stockport connecting to the Styal line near to Gatley, but nothing concrete ever came out of this. The former M63 as it was became part of the orbital M60 and was given extra lanes, which took up much of the useful land available.

It would have given Sheffield a direct route to Manchester Airport without the need for reversal at Manchester Piccadilly as done at present by the Cleethorpes to Manchester First TPE service, which have made a reduction to the paths at Manchester Piccadilly.

Getting the Train from the Airport Yesterday Evening, there were two single lines between Heald Green and Gatley, crossed 1 before, and one after the Motorway. Just wondered what they were.

 

[tbtc]

Didn't think so.

Interesting that TfGM (GMPTE) haven't added a link to their tram plans http://www.metrolink.co.uk/pdf/future_metrolink/network-map-with-new-extensions.pdf, it seems an obvious "flow" to cater for

 

[northwichcat]

(Huddersfield clearly having two trains an hour to Piccadilly)

Not clearly. There's also the Hull service which may not terminate at Victoria.

 

[Nym]

Yes, but it involves a reversal at Alderley Edge.

There is actually plenty of capacity at Victoria for through services if the current westbound terminators where pushed through teh station in order to beocme through services, there are currently 4tph from Bolton, 2tph from Walkden and 1 or 2tph from Liverpool L St that terminate at Victoria from the West. Now if the majority of these where pushed through victoria to Rochdale and Stalybridge, possibly combined with current Calder Valley and Diggle services, eg Wigan Wallgate - Huddersfeild, etc. Then the capacity will easilly be freed up at Victoria.

Space for 4 or 5tph through victoria for TPE, definately.

Huddersfeild, from the plans as I understand them will have a constant service to Piccadilly, 2tph, every half hour, ie. Anything that continues to Manchester Airport will be serving Piccadilly.

Back to Victoria, realistic capacity IMO would be as follows:

There would need to be some small changes to how the Chat Moss route joins onto the lines into Victoria. But this is what could be realised

Platforms 3 and 4 for the use of Chat Moss and through TPE Services onto the Castlefeild Curve or onto the Chat Moss for Chester via Warrington BQ. This would mean

TPE: 4 - 5tph, NT: 2tph ?EMT: 1tph ?ATW: 1tph per direction

All of this traffic would be being pushed through Victoria either onto Ashton Under Lyne and Stalybridge to terminate or pass through there.

Platforms 5 & 6 for services via Windsor Bridge Jcn, currently 6tph.

From the west the services could join up in the following way:

Platforms 5&6:
Kirby - Wigan - Victoria - Rochdale (New terminating service / Current Commuter Diagram)
Southport - Wigan - Victoria - Rochdale (New terminating service / Current Commuter Diagram)
Wigan Wallgate (3tph) -
2tph Leeds via Halifax
1tph Leeds via Brighouse
Blackpool North - Preston - Bolton - Victoria - Rochdale (New terminating service / Current Commuter Diagram)

This would give Rochdale 6tph into Manchester, 3tph stopping and 3tph express, giving the shortest journies to the longest on the other side of Victoria. Alternativly, creating a 'phantom station' to the East of Victoria between the two Rochdale running lines could also work quite nicely. Even on the most basic terms, every single service that runs through victoria from the west could be extended to Rochdale, and every service from the East extended to terminate at Salford Central (with the provision of two more platforms) This would see 10tph to Rochdale and 4tph to terminate at Salford Central, possibly a tad excessive so cutting the current Victoria - Rochdale shuttle would work for that.
As a 3rd or 4th alternative,
build this: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a20d467c7c29f6cb4
A multi platform terminus station on Broadway in Chadderton, and sign it as Park & Ride with a large car park.
The two services from Wigan via Walkden would be pushed through onto Rochdale as a 'GMPTE Area Commuter service' and everything else that is being pushed through Victoria from Bolton or even some of the services from the Chat Moss be continued onto Chadderton Broadway P&R, that could be elctrified to allow electric trains from Preston and Blackpool to continue onwards there, possibly. Still having all Calder Valley services terminate at Salford Central on platforms 2 and 3 to prevent crossing the main flow that would be using 1 and 4.

The Chadderton P&R would see:

5tph Rochdale - Manchester
9tph Victoria - Salford Central N
4tph Chadderton P&R - Victoria & on to Salford Central

Platforms 5 & 6 would need 9tph paths in each direction, not too hard...

No services would be terminating in Platforms 5 or 6 from either direction. Except possibly the Victoria - Blackpool N service if electrification isn't continued to the Chadderton P&R Site

Platforms 3&4

TPE: Lets say 5tph each one would be continuing through onto the Chat Moss route from Ashton U Lyne onto either Catslefeild Curve or Newton-le-Willows, possibly one terminating in platforms 1 or 2
NT: 2tph from Liverpool L St

And possibly:
EMT: 1tph from Heaton Norris / Ashton Moss Jcn to Chat Moss
ATW: 1tph from a Phantom Siding (or Stalybridge) to Chat Moss (Newton & Warrington)

Platforms 1&2:

Diggle route stoppers, hopfully to be 2tph
Possible terminating services on TPE: eg. the extra York - Manchester services.

NR Has mentioned continuing electrifcation of the Chat Moss onto Stalybridge to allow services to terminate there. If this came to fruition, aswell as Chadderton Broadway, the services could swap over if needed, eg.

Blackpool N - Victoria would terminate at Stalybridge and a diesel service over the chat moss would terminate at Chaddeton P&R.

So to awnser about capacity at Victoria, yes it is there, but it's all currently used up bt terminating services in the through platforms, if a bit of inventive inferstructure and clever sceduling was provided, it would be easy to create capacity. Some simlple things to do would include:

West Facing bays at Rochdale, or Centre Road sidings to the East for service to turn round.
More west facing bays at Stalybridge to terminate services from the Chat Moss route, including an extention of electrification to Stalybridge from Victoria and Guide Bridge (Mentioned by Network Rail)
A new P&R station at Chaddertion just off broadway to terminate all diesel services incoming from the west of Victoria, would add 30mins onto each turnaround. (PS, this station would have a VERY VERY large car park, and provide P&R services for everything East of Manchester, from, well, a lot of places.
Better junction layout at Salford West Jcn, 2 tracks to Salford Central with re-instating platforms 3 and 4, with 2 and 3 accessable independantly from either line to facilitate termination of Calder Valley services, and uninterupted 2 track from Chat Moss to Platforms 3 and 4 at Victoria.

 

[Invincibles]

This is why I advocate making the line through Oxford Road and 13/14 serve the airport only (and vice versa) to make signalling the whole thing a lot easier.

No conflicting movements across the throat of Piccadilly will improve things a lot and in theory similar ideas to those used on the thameslink core can be applied to get as much capacity through that section as possible.

I would have 2 trains per hour from the Airport and fast from Deansgate (all have to stop to keep the high capacity flow I think) to Liverpool via CLC. These replace the Norwich - Liverpool (terminates Piccadilly) and the Scarborough - Liverpool (now via Victoria)

2 trains would run Airport - North East (via Ordsall)
2 trains would run Airport - Preston (Blackpool / Lakes / slow Blackpool)
2 trains would run Airport - Wigan (Southport and Scotland)
2 trains would run Airport - Chester (North Wales train and maybe a Chester only)

There would then be no service from the Airport to Sheffield, but I would look at restoring the Derby - Crewe - Airport link for the East Midlands flow. If political pressure was high and the paths possible then maybe this would be the only train to use the main trainshed at Piccadilly and then continue to the airport.

As this would then continue through Victoria I would look at using 5 and 6 for these services, again keeping the focus of high capacity. Some services may be added in here (there would only be 4tph on the transpennine) so these could become calder valley bound. E.g Blackburn - Leeds.

3 and 4 would primarily bring in the trains from local NW places and terminate. New West facing bays would help enormously with this. Some would continue to Huddersfield / Wakefield.

Trains from the calder valley would be using any of these platforms and extending west.

1 and 2 would become terminal platforms for trains from Ashburys** which will be further lightening the load on Piccadilly (this will also facilitate their closure while the roof work is done).

If the Ardwick curve is done then every train through 3/4 should continue to platforms -1, 0, 1 and 2 at Piccadilly

Finally one or two Leeds - Manchester Piccadilly trains should be added (possibly extensions of the Leeds - Huddersfield terminators) to give good options for Huddersfield and Stalybridge to Piccadilly in the absence of the Liverpool transpennine train

Following this all places have access to all Manchester stations and as such any connections should be possible. Some journey times will increase but the overall benefits appear to be large. By focusing the double track sections on particular routes higher capacity can be factored in.

* 13/14 should be redeveloped with much easier access to the main shed. These will be the destination of all* airport trains and should be made suitable for such - there is already a travelator in the main shed
** By Ashburys I mean some trains that come from that way
*** All freight would route via the Styal line and just adopt a passenger path on that section

 

[Nym]

Oh, and as a PS: there would be a service from Stalybridge to Piccadilly at 2 or 3tph, all stations to speed up the Glossop / Hadfeild services to run them fast from Guide Bridge. Or vice versa, keep the fasts from Stalybridge.

Also, forgot about the ardwick curve, but I'd still advocate a P&R at chatterton.

Also, invincibles, I see a lot of un-nessesary crossing movments in that plan, TPE comes in from the southern tracks, calls on the northern tracks then needs to go over to the southern tracks again to get to Ashton U Lyne?

 

[northwichcat]

OK I've found the Network Rail Manchester Hub document: http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/Projects/The Northern Hub/6485_Manchester Hub Rail Study.pdf

Note that these relate to the Manchester Hub in general and won't all occur at the same time as the opening of the Ordsall Curve.

I've bolded some of the points directly related the number of services which could possibly be going through both Victoria and Piccadilly and which are or could be through services.

Inter-regional and trans Pennine service
• Leeds, York and Hull:
- six trains per hour from Leeds and beyond. Opportunity for four fast trains with only one or two stops thereby improving journey times
- faster journey time to and through central Manchester
- increased frequency provides opportunity for new direct services to Liverpool, Chester, Preston or Manchester Airport.

The North East (Newcastle and Middlesbrough):
- opportunity for new direct services beyond Manchester
- improved journey times through use of the four fast trains on North trans Pennine
- improved performance of services to Manchester Airport
- improved connections for onwards journeys at Leeds, Huddersfield and Manchester Victoria.

• South Yorkshire (Sheffield and Doncaster):
- faster journey time to Manchester Piccadilly by around five minutes
- increased frequency for up to four trains per hour running as two pairs, one in each pair to Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria respectively
- increased direct services beyond Manchester to Liverpool, Chester or Preston via Victoria with journey time improvements via the Chat Moss route.

East Midlands (Derby, Leicester and Nottingham):
- two trains per hour to Manchester
- faster journey time to Manchester Piccadilly by around five minutes
- improved connections beyond Manchester (via Victoria) making use of the improved journey time to Liverpool via the Chat Moss route
- potential for one train per hour to run direct to Manchester (avoiding Sheffield) with resultant journey time improvement without worsening current East Midlands to Sheffield connectivity.

• Bradford and Halifax:
- two trains per hour crossing Manchester to Manchester Airport and Liverpool or Chester
- improved connection through Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly.

• Liverpool:
- improved journey time of 33 minutes to Manchester Victoria
- four fast trains per hour between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool Lime Street
- improved connections for inter-regional destinations at Manchester Victoria
- access to Manchester Airport via Warrington Central.

• Chester:
- doubled frequency to two trains per hour
- direct service across Manchester to destinations such as Manchester Airport, Bradford, Sheffield and Leeds
- incremental journey time improvements as a result of works on the Chat Moss route.

• The North West (Preston and beyond):
- additional services from Manchester to Preston and destinations to the north
- capacity for electrified services to operate via Chat Moss route and West Coast Main Line (WCML) with the ability to provide a fast service
between Wigan and Manchester.

Key commuter corridors
• Rochdale/Calder Valley:
- additional all day services to Rochdale from Manchester and Leeds
- direct services to destinations beyond Manchester Victoria such as Manchester Airport and Wigan
- increased frequency of services between Halifax and Leeds
- capacity for services from Burnley via Todmorden if investment at Todmorden is funded.

• Bolton Corridor:
- potential to alleviate peak crowding through services via WCML for Preston and north
- potential for more services to work through to destinations beyond Manchester Victoria, such as the East Midlands
- faster journey times to Wigan from additional services via WCML
- opportunity for more all day services to Blackburn if investment at Darwen is funded.

• Atherton Line:
- potential for additional services in the peak
- faster journey times to Atherton and potentially other significant stations
- potential to alleviate peak crowding as Wigan passengers travel via WCML
- potential for through working to destinations beyond Manchester Victoria to destinations such as Bradford.

• Chat Moss Route:
- significantly faster more frequent direct links between Liverpool and Manchester
- more frequent fast services between Wigan and Liverpool
- faster local journeys due to electrification with scale dependent on stopping pattern
- more frequent service between stations to Chester and central Manchester
- opportunity, if infrastructure is funded, for more frequent service to Eccles by way of loop or turnback.

• CLC Route:
- potential for additional services
- potential to review stopping pattern which may improve frequency at some stations – but trades off journey time
- potential to consider stations at White City/Cornbrook.

• Northwich:
- more off-peak services closer to Greater Manchester
- faster journey time to key locations
- potential for Greenbank - Altrincham to be linked to Ashton/Guide Bridge.

• Crewe:
- potential for extra peak capacity when needed
- more frequent service to Manchester Airport
- Heaton Chapel/Levenshulme could see return to 15 minute all day pattern.

• Stoke-on-Trent
- new direct service to Manchester Airport
- potential for faster services serving Manchester from Congleton/Kidsgrove depending on stopping pattern of the all day Birmingham slow service.

• Buxton/Hazel Grove:
- potential for additional services all day or peak only
- More off peak services beyond Hazel Grove
(could be to Buxton or to Chinley)
- modest improvement in journey times –dependent on stopping patterns
- potential for long distance services to call at Hazel Grove and or Chinley all day or peak only
- potential for a new station at Chapel-en-le-Frith on the Great Rocks line
- better faster connections to Sheffield and the East Midlands from Manchester and potentially from Hazel Grove and Chinley dependent on
stopping patterns.

• Marple:
- potential for more peak services to Marple, Rose Hill and New Mills Central
- potential to improve services to Ardwick if viable
- more all day services to Chinley – with connections there to Sheffield and the East Midlands
- potential for (additional) services to go to Manchester Victoria, and for new station at Eastlands.

• Glossop/Hadfield:
- more all day services in Greater Manchester
- significant increase in service frequency from Guide Bridge to Manchester
- potential for some services to go to Manchester Victoria if electrified
- ability to increase overall frequency if services alternate between Glossop and Hadfield.

• Huddersfield and Stalybridge:
- potential for more peak or all day services to Stalybridge from Manchester Victoria and or Manchester Piccadilly
- commuter services to Huddersfield from Manchester Piccadilly in lieu of Manchester Victoria
- a link created between Stalybridge and Guide Bridge
- more frequent trans Pennine trains call at Stalybridge
- inclusion of Ashton–under–Lyne in the transPennine network
- potential for new station and turnback facility at Diggle facilitating additional services
- potential for electrification to Stalybridge allowing electric through working from beyond Manchester Victoria
- increased frequency east of Huddersfield.

• Manchester Loop;
- 15 minute pattern Manchester Victoria – Oxford Road – Manchester Piccadilly – Manchester Airport
- potential to include Salford Central if Liverpool line platforms provided
- potential for a station at Eastlands with services working through Manchester Victoria.

Manchester Airport
- provide opportunity for new direct connections such as to Bradford, Halifax, Chester, Stoke-on-Trent and Warrington
- improved cross Manchester capacity and platform provides additional capacity for services
- improved city centre dispersal through Manchester Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Manchester Victoria
- improvement in performance through the simplification of the operation at Manchester Piccadilly.

Freight
- doubling the number of paths from the West Coast Main Line to Trafford Park meeting the 2030 freight forecast
- provision of an hourly path on the Chat Moss route to serve developments at Port Salford and Parkside.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thank you, jcollins, for giving us sight of the Network Rail Manchester Hub document, which will give all of us plenty of room for thought. On a personal note, some of the new services to Manchester Airport from Stoke on Trent and Chester would give a better reach from the southern environs to a major airport.

"Greenbank/Altrincham to be linked to Ashton/Guide Bridge"...now that's one that I never envisaged".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Getting the Train from the Airport Yesterday Evening, there were two single lines between Heald Green and Gatley, crossed 1 before, and one after the Motorway. Just wondered what they were.

I am sorry that it has taken me so long to try and answer your query, but I lost my reminder note. It is now 02:00 on Sunday morning, 1st May and I want to answer it while I can:roll:

Well, I will try to be of assistance in satisfying your curiosity, so I will say that one answer is quite easy....the other one not so.

One is the line that takes the Altrincham to Stockport section of the Manchester Piccadilly- Stockport-Altrincham-Knutsford-Northwich-Chester service. That is the easy answer.

The other, as far as I can think, is a freight-only line that curves around what originally was Cheadle junction where it passes along the side of Morrison's supermarket in Cheadle Heath where it continues to pass under the Altrincham to Stockport line and carries on, passing under the Stockport to Cheadle Hulme line to run into the Hazel Grove area where it enters the Disley tunnel (2 miles 346 yards). From there, it reaches the New Mills line past New Mills Central where it joins that line to Chinley and points eastward.

I am not sure as to the current freight movements that would make use of this line.

They are the same line from Altrincham as far as Northenden Junction, which is just past the containerised refuse compaction plant, The line then splits into these two seperate routes at Northenden Junction.

I may be wrong in my reasoning as to the actual route of the freight-only line but if you can use your undoubted computer skills, as I know you can, you will also find out who constructed that line and the reason for its existance.

I am sure that there are members out in the forum who would also be able to answer any queries that you might have with the freight-only line.

 

[Invincibles]

The freight only line comes back in at Hazel Grove (Manchester to Sheffield trains use a curve up from the Buxton line to join the freight line there)

Very clearly visible as you head south out of Stockport as the alignment appears much wider than the single track that occupies it.

No idea what uses it though, sorry, but I have seen trains waiting to come off it as I have been on a Sheffield bound train.

 

[northwichcat]

"Greenbank/Altrincham to be linked to Ashton/Guide Bridge"...now that's one that I never envisaged".

I'd forgotten about that one. There have been calls for additional services on the Mid Cheshire line if it's just one unit running a Northwich-Altrincham shuttle.

I'd guess that proposal is actually a combination of two proposals:
* One for an extra service from Greenbank to Stockport
* One for a service on the Denton line
And rather than having two services terminating at Stockport to instead have a through service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'd forgotten about that one. There have been calls for additional services on the Mid Cheshire line if it's just one unit running a Northwich-Altrincham shuttle.

I'd guess that proposal is actually a combination of two proposals:
* One for an extra service from Greenbank to Stockport
* One for a service on the Denton line
And rather than having two services terminating at Stockport to instead have a through service.

This has set me thinking about the mention of the Denton line.

How about a single GREENBANK to HUDDERSFIELD route, via the existing Stockport to Stalybridge line that is looking for an increased useage. You will get a WCML connection to the West Yorkshire area with no extra Manchester paths involved. It does not clash with the Preston to Bradford route via Blackburn and Hebden Bridge that already has a WCML connection at Preston. Does this idea of mine require much path crossing at Stockport?.

 

[tbtc]

This has set me thinking about the mention of the Denton line.

How about a single GREENBANK to HUDDERSFIELD route, via the existing Stockport to Stalybridge line that is looking for an increased useage. You will get a WCML connection to the West Yorkshire area with no extra Manchester paths involved. It does not clash with the Preston to Bradford route via Blackburn and Hebden Bridge that already has a WCML connection at Preston. Does this idea of mine require much path crossing at Stockport?.

Yes, every line needs to be crossed from the south west of Stockport to the north east.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, every line needs to be crossed from the south west of Stockport to the north east.

Back to the planning board again

However, see an earlier reply on this thread stating an official proposal for "Greenbank/Altrincham to Ashton under Lyne/Guide Bridge". Would that also require line crossing at Stockport, as I am sure it included the Stockport to Stalybridge line as part of the total route?

 

[Whistler40145]

Re-time the current Hull-Liverpool in the path of a Hull-Doncaster service & couple up with the Cleethorpes service at Doncaster, run this as a limited stop service calling at Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Warrington Central & Liverpool South Parkway thus eliminating the need to cross the station throat @ Piccadilly.

Re-time & reroute the current Hull-Manchester Piccadilly in the path now vacated by the Liverpool service, this could now serve Victoria & extend to Manchester Airport?

 

[Nym]

Re-time the current Hull-Liverpool in the path of a Hull-Doncaster service & couple up with the Cleethorpes service at Doncaster, run this as a limited stop service calling at Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Warrington Central & Liverpool South Parkway thus eliminating the need to cross the station throat @ Piccadilly.

Re-time & reroute the current Hull-Manchester Piccadilly in the path now vacated by the Liverpool service, this could now serve Victoria & extend to Manchester Airport?

What current Hull - Liverpool service? Theres only 3tpd IIRC.
Into the path of a Hull - Doncaster service, do you mean the one that stops at all stations from Hull to Doncaster?
It would still need to cross the station throught, it would need to cross 4 tracks to get to the through platforms, just over a longer distance.
"Re-time & reroute the current Hull - Piccadilly service in the path now vacated by the Liverpool service?"
What liverpool service, there is only 1 service path that runs from Hull Paragon to Manchester Piccadilly
Timed to leave Paragon Interchange at xx:38 +/- 2mins. With slight changes toward the end of the day, and an additional service at 06:00 when the line opens. This terminated more often than not at Piccadilly.

The only services that extend from Hull - Piccadilly - Liverpool or vice versa are (IIRC)

The 0600 off Hull Paragon
and SO 1803 off Paragon
and SX1922 off Liverpool L St

If you did divert Hull - Manchester - (Liverpool) to be routed via the Hope Valley, then Hull and Selby would loose it's fast links to Leeds, and not many pepole would be too happy about that, myself included.

Personally I don't see what the problem is with Warrington Central either loosing it's fast services in favour of Bank Quay, and that Liverpool South Parkway won't have fast trains calling there from Manchester any more, so what?
If you're worried about airline passengers, the're already flying with Ryanair or Easyjet anyway, so chances are they're not going to mind an extra few minutes on the train.
The airport that needs serving by rail out of the two is Manchester due to it's vastly diferernt passengers.

 

[tbtc]

Re-time the current Hull-Liverpool in the path of a Hull-Doncaster service & couple up with the Cleethorpes service at Doncaster, run this as a limited stop service calling at Sheffield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Warrington Central & Liverpool South Parkway thus eliminating the need to cross the station throat @ Piccadilly.

Re-time & reroute the current Hull-Manchester Piccadilly in the path now vacated by the Liverpool service, this could now serve Victoria & extend to Manchester Airport?

If you mean putting a "Hull" portion onto the Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service (?), then I think that's a good thing. (ignoring arguments about stock for a moment, pretending its 158s) it'd allow at least four coaches west of Doncaster (the busiest section) with a couple of coaches for both Cleethorpes and Hull. That seems like a good allocation of stock, given the need for increased capacity through Sheffield.

Hull - Selby - Leeds could pass to Northern, to run alongside their existing Hull - Selby (York) and Selby - Leeds (Caldervale) services.

Since Hull may be tricky to electrify (swing bridge at Selby being the reason?), this would allow for a direct Hull - Manchester service to remain if and when the Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York line is inevitably electrified.

Plus, for the sake of balance, you'd need another Sheffield - Doncaster service (if the existing Sheffield - Doncaster - Hull service is absorbed into the Cleethorpes route), but at least this could serve Rotherham or other local stations en route, if its not longer for longer distance passengers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

MESSAGE FOR NYM

In the link that you were so kind to include on this thread recently, that showed a terminal station on Broadway, near to the junction with Middleton Road, was this not formerly the site of the L & Y coal depot that was served from Middleton Junction station which itself came off the very steep incline from Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth?

 

[Gareth]

Personally I don't see what the problem is with Warrington Central either loosing it's fast services in favour of Bank Quay, and that Liverpool South Parkway won't have fast trains calling there from Manchester any more, so what?

If you're worried about airline passengers, the're already flying with Ryanair or Easyjet anyway, so chances are they're not going to mind an extra few minutes on the train.
The airport that needs serving by rail out of the two is Manchester due to it's vastly diferernt passengers.

Don't get your logic. Passengers going to Liverpool Airport are flying with Ryanair or Easyjet (apart from those using KLM for longhaul) so won't expect convenient rail access to the airport? Also, no one's saying that this should be instead of rail links to Manchester Airport.

Liverpool's the second busiest airport in northern England. It's busier than Leeds-Bradford, busier than Newcastle... It's busier than all midlands airports, bar Birmingham. It's not insignificant by any stretch and will most likely continue to grow in importance. So yes, I would say it's important for fast services from Manchester at least, if not eastwards from there, to continue calling at Liverpool South Parkway.