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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Noddy

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I didn't particularly cherry pick, I'd have picked later when things got worse. It was just the day I happen to revisit the thread. If we were fossil free we'd be screwed. We need a rethink; even if the number of wind turbines tends to infinity, with no wind the output is zero.

It's the usual political rubbish - set a target with no understanding of the issues, no supporting strategy or plan and then flounder around hopelessly as the target dates gets relentlessly closer. The smart meter debacle is a prime example. We'll be scrapping smart meters with dead batteries long before the rollout is complete.

‘Just the day I happened to revisit the thread’ - yeah right!

Your point appears to be to abandon the renewable targets (eg 50GW of off shore wind) and do nothing other than continue to burn gas? Or am I wrong? Because that doesn’t seem like any sort of plan or strategy at all, and looks like a typical example of burying your head in the sand. Not to mention more expensive for consumers-check the average balancing price of electricity for Monday when there was a moderate amount of renewables, compared to Saturday when there was very little…
 
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trebor79

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He may not be thinking of a 20 year old Lexus though! (Admittedly I’m also not sure which Tesla you have).
Not many ICE cars can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, you're verging into supercar territory. And even if they can, that's with a test driver with a licence to shag clutches. Real life driver isn't going to manage it most of the time, and have to fight the torque steer etc. With an EV you just push the go faster pedal and it goes, consistently every time with no skill required.

Mine isn't even one of the "fast" models. TBH I almost never use full power because it's just not necessary. I had a "performance" version as a loan car for two weeks whilst mine was being fixed, and although it was a lot of fun burning very expensive sports cars at the lights it was a bit silly and a bit much for everyday use. The Model S "Ludicrous" version can do the 0-60 spring in under 2 seconds and is actually faster than a Formula 1 car in a straight line up to whatever the top speed of the Tesla is. I'd like to try it, but I'm not sure I'd want it as a daily driver!
 

paul1609

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Not many ICE cars can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, you're verging into supercar territory. And even if they can, that's with a test driver with a licence to shag clutches. Real life driver isn't going to manage it most of the time, and have to fight the torque steer etc. With an EV you just push the go faster pedal and it goes, consistently every time with no skill required.

Mine isn't even one of the "fast" models. TBH I almost never use full power because it's just not necessary. I had a "performance" version as a loan car for two weeks whilst mine was being fixed, and although it was a lot of fun burning very expensive sports cars at the lights it was a bit silly and a bit much for everyday use. The Model S "Ludicrous" version can do the 0-60 spring in under 2 seconds and is actually faster than a Formula 1 car in a straight line up to whatever the top speed of the Tesla is. I'd like to try it, but I'm not sure I'd want it as a daily driver!
What sort of tyre life does a three ton tesla get doing 0 to 60 in 4 secs?
 

AM9

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What sort of tyre life does a three ton tesla get doing 0 to 60 in 4 secs?
What relevance has that to do with a serious discussion about the UK switching to EVs? I would say about the same as a pi**ing contest about how fast a V8 can accelerate to 60mph.
 

trebor79

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What sort of tyre life does a three ton tesla get doing 0 to 60 in 4 secs?
Ha! Well the Model 3 that I have weighs less than a BMW 3 series...
But in answer to your question. I bought mine used with 6mm of tread on the tyres. I have just changed the rear tyres (they still had about 3mm but the inside edges were worn to the limit - common on the M3, something to do with how the suspension s set up) after driving it for 19,000 miles in my ownership. The front still have plenty of life. So they last surprisingly well, but of course eI don't drive like a lunatic most of the time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

What relevance has that to do with a serious discussion about the UK switching to EVs? I would say about the same as a pi**ing contest about how fast a V8 can accelerate to 60mph.
I concur.
Anyway, as a fully EV household we have had no issues at all with journeys both long and short, and are enjoying the excellent driving experience, getting into a warm defrosted car on even the coldest of mornings and significantly lower running costs (the fuel savings on my Tesla more than cover the monthly payments).
So my personal answer to the question is "Very realistic".
 

GLC

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Not many ICE cars can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, you're verging into supercar territory. And even if they can, that's with a test driver with a licence to shag clutches.
Pretty much any high performance ICE car from the last 5 years can crack 4 seconds. Anything from an Audi RS3 up really. The advantage of the complete takeover of 4WD and dual cliutch/torque converter gearboxes means that gearbox life isn't as much of a concern, although, often the gearboxes will have a dedicated launch control shift map that can only be used x amount of times before being permanently locked out. The ubiquitous ZF 8 speed box in every RWD BMW and JLR product has this feature
What sort of tyre life does a three ton tesla get doing 0 to 60 in 4 secs?
TVs launching typically suffer _less_ tyre wear, as the torque application is smoother (no gear changes, so no dramatic ramp in torque demand across the tyre as during a gear change in an ICE car), and the traction control intervention is much faster and simpler, as the system doesn't have to brake a spinning wheel and fight the inertia of an entire spinning metal mechanical powertrain, it can simply modulate the power output of the motor which is located within 50cm of the wheel. I imagine on EVs which have a motor per wheel, they could/would use the motor to apply negative torque briefly as an alternative to using the brakes.

As an aside, the Cybertruck that has just launched, despite being an off-road vehicle, has no locking differential on the rear axle, because it has a motor per wheel at the back, the traditional function of the diff can be replicated in software across the two rear motors. No diff means the vehicle has higher ground clearance than it otherwise would have. One of the neat packaging benefits of EVs!
 

DustyBin

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Not many ICE cars can do 0-60 in less than 4 seconds, you're verging into supercar territory. And even if they can, that's with a test driver with a licence to shag clutches. Real life driver isn't going to manage it most of the time, and have to fight the torque steer etc. With an EV you just push the go faster pedal and it goes, consistently every time with no skill required.

Mine isn't even one of the "fast" models. TBH I almost never use full power because it's just not necessary. I had a "performance" version as a loan car for two weeks whilst mine was being fixed, and although it was a lot of fun burning very expensive sports cars at the lights it was a bit silly and a bit much for everyday use. The Model S "Ludicrous" version can do the 0-60 spring in under 2 seconds and is actually faster than a Formula 1 car in a straight line up to whatever the top speed of the Tesla is. I'd like to try it, but I'm not sure I'd want it as a daily driver!

There are super-hatches that will get to 60 in less than 4 seconds with no skill required; ICE technology has continued to improve alongside that of EVs. Even my 6 year old Focus with a manual gearbox will do it consistently in 4.5 seconds (and the clutch doesn't complain!).

The beauty of EVs is that they can deliver performance relatively cheaply and reliably, if also rather soullessly. As you say, even the "slow" Teslas aren't actually slow....

What relevance has that to do with a serious discussion about the UK switching to EVs? I would say about the same as a pi**ing contest about how fast a V8 can accelerate to 60mph.

I'd say it's very relevant to people who base their car buying decisions on this kind of thing!
 

jon0844

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Volvo, MG and Kia have all recently launched cars with sub-4 second 0-60 times that are far more mainstream (and affordable, especially the MG4 XPower) and I expect that many more will follow because it's pretty easy to make any EV stupidly fast.

Obviously the efficiency goes out of the window when using that power, but it does mean people who want power and performance can consider switching if they can live without the engine noises (I doubt many will go for fake generated sounds though!).
 

AM9

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There are super-hatches that will get to 60 in less than 4 seconds with no skill required; ICE technology has continued to improve alongside that of EVs. Even my 6 year old Focus with a manual gearbox will do it consistently in 4.5 seconds (and the clutch doesn't complain!).

The beauty of EVs is that they can deliver performance relatively cheaply and reliably, if also rather soullessly. As you say, even the "slow" Teslas aren't actually slow....



I'd say it's very relevant to people who base their car buying decisions on this kind of thing!

The thread title says: "... UK switching to electric vehicles ..." and drivers who do what @talldave said are in a minority and absolutely no influence on the UK progressing to an all-electric road transport system. Ergo, that has no relevance to this thread.
 

DustyBin

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The thread title says: "... UK switching to electric vehicles ..." and drivers who do what @talldave said are in a minority and absolutely no influence on the UK progressing to an all-electric road transport system. Ergo, that has no relevance to this thread.

They may be a minority, but the UK won't progress to an all-electric road transport system if people continue to drive ICE cars. Ergo, it has every relevance to this thread....
 

AM9

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They may be a minority, but the UK won't progress to an all-electric road transport system if people continue to drive ICE cars. Ergo, it has every relevance to this thread....
That's still nothing to do with whether it is realistic for the UK to switch to electric vehicles, in fact it already is. The end of pure and hybrid hydrocarbon burner sales will really kick the pace of switching, but that date is just over 6 or 12 years ahead, although the car industry will probably press on with the programme that meets the original deadline.
There will always be minorities who try and resist any change but they can be dealt with by increasingly stronger nudges, in this case, increasing VED/road charges, fuel duty and car tax rises and ultimately, restrictions on where non-compliant vehicles can go. Beyond that if they still continue, it will become a very restricted and expensive hobby.
 

trebor79

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That's still nothing to do with whether it is realistic for the UK to switch to electric vehicles, in fact it already is. The end of pure and hybrid hydrocarbon burner sales will really kick the pace of switching, but that date is just over 6 or 12 years ahead, although the car industry will probably press on with the programme that meets the original deadline.
There will always be minorities who try and resist any change but they can be dealt with by increasingly stronger nudges, in this case, increasing VED/road charges, fuel duty and car tax rises and ultimately, restrictions on where non-compliant vehicles can go. Beyond that if they still continue, it will become a very restricted and expensive hobby.
I see MFG are getting rid of all their LPG pumps by the end of 2024. I don't think it'll be very many years before we see petrol stations starting to close in significant numbers. You can see the petro-states already panicking with the dawning realisation that the shift away from oil is accelerating, hence price-gouging with output cuts and ironically that just pushes more people and businesses into electrification.
I have to say I was astonished when a large filling station with McDonalds, Greggs, Subway (other junk food outlets are available) and shop opened near us a couple of years ago with absolutely zero provision for EV charging, nor any passive provision for it to be added in future. Seems very short-sighted.
 

jon0844

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Our Shell petrol station closed to be rebuilt and now has EV charging*. Same number of pumps, but a much bigger store (Waitrose) and area for waiting - although increasingly EVs don't need huge waiting times.

Plug in, pop to loo, buy a coffee or snack and sit in the car for 10 minutes. Time to set the satnav for your drive, catch up on this forum, your emails or IMs whatever.

* it hasn't actually reopened yet but you can see what it has from the road.
 

DustyBin

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That's still nothing to do with whether it is realistic for the UK to switch to electric vehicles, in fact it already is. The end of pure and hybrid hydrocarbon burner sales will really kick the pace of switching, but that date is just over 6 or 12 years ahead, although the car industry will probably press on with the programme that meets the original deadline.
There will always be minorities who try and resist any change but they can be dealt with by increasingly stronger nudges, in this case, increasing VED/road charges, fuel duty and car tax rises and ultimately, restrictions on where non-compliant vehicles can go. Beyond that if they still continue, it will become a very restricted and expensive hobby.

I'm genuinely not convinced the above will happen. I think what we're seeing is one enormous "nudge" to persuade the public and car makers to switch, but with the acceptance that a 100% electric future isn't realistic.
 

WelshBluebird

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but with the acceptance that a 100% electric future isn't realistic.
It doesn't need to hit anywhere near 100% for the writing to be on the wall though. As trebor79 as hinted at, there are a lot of petrol stations in the country and not all of them will continue to be viable as the market share of EV's increases. It's perfectly possible that such an event ends up in a cycle where an increased share of EV's causes more petrol stations to close, which itself causes more people to consider getting an EV as their next car, which itself then causes more petrol stations to close etc etc.

The two questions to be asking IMO are:
1 - at what EV market share is our current network of petrol stations unsustainable?
2 - how many existing petrol stations need to close before charging an EV becomes easier than filling up their tank for a decent number of people?

And that is before you consider the other "writing on the wall" for petrol / diesel cars around environmental concerns, clean air zones, legislation etc.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm genuinely not convinced the above will happen. I think what we're seeing is one enormous "nudge" to persuade the public and car makers to switch, but with the acceptance that a 100% electric future isn't realistic.

I‘m reasonably sure that central London will move to a ‘zero emission zone’ for cars / light vans (at least) by the end of the decade. AIUI TfL have looked into it.
 

DustyBin

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It doesn't need to hit anywhere near 100% for the writing to be on the wall though. As trebor79 as hinted at, there are a lot of petrol stations in the country and not all of them will continue to be viable as the market share of EV's increases. It's perfectly possible that such an event ends up in a cycle where an increased share of EV's causes more petrol stations to close, which itself causes more people to consider getting an EV as their next car, which itself then causes more petrol stations to close etc etc.

The two questions to be asking IMO are:
1 - at what EV market share is our current network of petrol stations unsustainable?
2 - how many existing petrol stations need to close before charging an EV becomes easier than filling up their tank for a decent number of people?

And that is before you consider the other "writing on the wall" for petrol / diesel cars around environmental concerns, clean air zones, legislation etc.

Good questions, to which I don't know the answer. I expect we're going to see gradually fewer ICE cars over the next couple of decades, and probably less filling stations as result. I don't think either will die out entirely though, and (as discussed a few pages back) I can see sales of new ICE cars continuing beyond 2035, albeit in relatively small numbers.

I‘m reasonably sure that central London will move to a ‘zero emission zone’ for cars / light vans (at least) by the end of the decade. AIUI TfL have looked into it.

Quite possibly, although politically it will require there to be sufficient EVs on London's roads by that point.
 

Bald Rick

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Quite possibly, although politically it will require there to be sufficient EVs on London's roads by that point.

Yep. I‘d expect it not to be a complete ban, just an extension of the ULEZ central zone to include all ICE cars. ie you can still drive one in, but you have to pay (as is the case with the Oxford ZEZ).
 

paul1609

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I‘m reasonably sure that central London will move to a ‘zero emission zone’ for cars / light vans (at least) by the end of the decade. AIUI TfL have looked into it.
I feel sorry for small businesses in Central London. Since Ive retired from the Navy Ive occasionally done emergency cover for a refrigeration/ air conditioning company just off the M25. When I was recruited I told them I didnt want to work in the ULEZ (when it was the north/south circular) because I had a Cat 5 vehicle and it wasnt worth me upgrading. Dont worry they said the client is deperate for out of hours/ holiday cover and we will repay all your costs. For the first 30 minutes on site in Central London its £250 call out charge, Congestion Charge, ULEZ, Tfl Charges Administration charge £25 and Parking (or fines) if not available on site. You cant carry gas bottles etc on public transport so theres no real alternative. For reasons I dont really understand myself I could probably work every weekend and holiday period just on London call outs since the ULEZ was expanded.
 

Bald Rick

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I feel sorry for small businesses in Central London. Since Ive retired from the Navy Ive occasionally done emergency cover for a refrigeration/ air conditioning company just off the M25. When I was recruited I told them I didnt want to work in the ULEZ (when it was the north/south circular) because I had a Cat 5 vehicle and it wasnt worth me upgrading. Dont worry they said the client is deperate for out of hours/ holiday cover and we will repay all your costs. For the first 30 minutes on site in Central London its £250 call out charge, Congestion Charge, ULEZ, Tfl Charges Administration charge £25 and Parking (or fines) if not available on site. You cant carry gas bottles etc on public transport so theres no real alternative. For reasons I dont really understand myself I could probably work every weekend and holiday period just on London call outs since the ULEZ was expanded.

I shouldn’t feel too sorry. The congestion charge has its 21st Birthday in a few weeks, and ULEZ in central London has been in place nearly 5 years. The extra £12.50 will be lost in the noise for most.
 

The Ham

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I shouldn’t feel too sorry. The congestion charge has its 21st Birthday in a few weeks, and ULEZ in central London has been in place nearly 5 years. The extra £12.50 will be lost in the noise for most.

Indeed, and whilst there's always going to be some willing to pay the £12.50 over time that number is going to fall - just as the number of older cars which meet the requirements rises.

Whilst it may not be viable for an individual to replace their car now, there's a good chance within the next 5 years that it would be, whilst they may not be for an EV it's likely that it'll be for something better.

Even if they don't, a further 5 years later and there's a good chance they those that haven't will do (especially if their car is already 5 years old).

Currently new sales of PHEV and BEV account for nearly 25% of total market share and growing year on year. Whilst there was an increase in the number of petrol cars in the last month and last year compared with the same data assets last year, there was still a fall in market share of around 2%.

Diesel is falling fast, last year it was about 85% of the number of PHEV and 38% of BEV, whilst it's now 55% of PHEV and 24% of BEV. 5 years ago diesel was 40% of all car sales and "alternative fuels" was 6% (i.e. there was no need to define BEV and PHEV separately as the numbers were just too small).

Currently there's a lot of opposition to increasing fuel duty, as it impacts a lot of people. However as market share values shift that opposition will start to fall. Even PHEV will be less impacted by increases.

Currently if petrol increases by 1p per mile a pure petrol car doing 10,000 miles a year will see the costs increase by £100. However if you can do 50% of your milage by electric in a PHEV then that extra cost of 1p per mile would see an increase of £50 (still painful, but less so).

However, given that:
- 10,000 miles a year is above average mileage
- 10,000 miles a year is 43 miles per working day (assuming only used for work purposes)
- most PHEV can do over 30 miles on pure electric
- PHEV will do more miles than this from recovered electricity
it's highly likely that the percentage of miles able to be done on electric (by the vast majority of people) would be quite a lot higher than this. Assuming 43 miles per working day and 30 miles of pure electric use and that's 70% (now that increase in cost is £30). The reality is likely that the car would be used at weekends, which would most likely increase the percentage of electric miles higher.

If we assume 15p per mile when fuel costs are when petrol is 150p per litre; then for fuel duty to increase costs by 1p per mile that's an extra 10p per litre - which would be a few years worth of growth of fuel duty (assuming a few pence per year). Whilst an extra £3 per year would soon start to be felt, an extra £1 per year wouldn't impact people nearly as much.

Whilst for those with BEV the impact would be zero.

At 10% (PHEV and BEV) of total fleet there's likely to be a willingness to start to see fuel duty rises of a penny per year every few years, as that rises to 25% of total fleet that's likely to stay to become every year with some years of a bit more than that, at 50% it's likely to become 3p plus every year and by the time it's over 70% it's likely that fuel duty will be seen as an easy target (similar to taxes on cigarettes).

Currently we are at just over 3% of total fleet being BEV or PHEV (having risen from about 2% in the last year), as such 10% total fleet could be as soon as 3 years out but fairly likely within 5 years, with 25% being 5 to 7 years time. Bear in mind EV/PHEV were sub 6% of new sales 5 years ago and they are now 25% of new sales, total fleet rising from 3% to 25% might be pushing it for within 5 years, but probably not all that far off.
 

Noddy

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Our Shell petrol station closed to be rebuilt and now has EV charging*. Same number of pumps, but a much bigger store (Waitrose) and area for waiting - although increasingly EVs don't need huge waiting times.

Plug in, pop to loo, buy a coffee or snack and sit in the car for 10 minutes. Time to set the satnav for your drive, catch up on this forum, your emails or IMs whatever.

* it hasn't actually reopened yet but you can see what it has from the road.

The Shell garage just off Junction 13 of the M5 (Stroud) was recently rebuilt as well. That one reopened with a reduced number of petrol pumps but with provision for EV charging (still ‘coming soon’)-four charging bays I think. So even the fossil fuel companies are starting to recognise where we are heading.
 

AM9

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The Shell garage just off Junction 13 of the M5 (Stroud) was recently rebuilt as well. That one reopened with a reduced number of petrol pumps but with provision for EV charging (still ‘coming soon’)-four charging bays I think. So even the fossil fuel companies are starting to recognise where we are heading.
In, say, five years there will be more charging points at garages than fuel pumps. Then probably much quicker than we realise, it will be the pumps with the queues and EVs will have sufficient charging stations and range that queues for them are less common.
 

Bletchleyite

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In, say, five years there will be more charging points at garages than fuel pumps. Then probably much quicker than we realise, it will be the pumps with the queues and EVs will have sufficient charging stations and range that queues for them are less common.

Though of course the queues for the pumps will move much more quickly. Just replacing like for like thus isn't a solution - EV charging lends itself more to being "built into" parking when you're stopping for something that takes time anyway.
 

trebor79

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Though of course the queues for the pumps will move much more quickly. Just replacing like for like thus isn't a solution
It kind of would be TBH, because most EV's leave home "fully charged" and therefore don't need to charge out and about very often. For example, I don't have to charge my EV on my 190 mile round trip commute. It charges overnight at home.
I visit a public charging site far less often than I visited a petrol station when I drove ICE.

MFG have got it sussed, they have just announced another big expansion of charging infrastructure on their sites. The existing ones really are very good with usually about 8 150kW or 350kW chargers in a nicely lit area with tyre pump, vacuum and washer water dispensing adjacent. There's usually a couple of hot food options and a seating area in the shop building too. Shell are just playing at it really.
 

DustyBin

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In, say, five years there will be more charging points at garages than fuel pumps. Then probably much quicker than we realise, it will be the pumps with the queues and EVs will have sufficient charging stations and range that queues for them are less common.

I'd say ten years at a push, but probably more like fifteen to twenty. As long as there's sufficient demand for petrol (and diesel, although that will reduce more quickly) there will remain enough pumps to meet it. Allowing long queues to form doesn't make commercial sense.

Also, @Bletchleyite has made the same secondary point that I was going make:

Though of course the queues for the pumps will move much more quickly. Just replacing like for like thus isn't a solution - EV charging lends itself more to being "built into" parking when you're stopping for something that takes time anyway.

Agreed.

It kind of would be TBH, because most EV's leave home "fully charged" and therefore don't need to charge out and about very often. For example, I don't have to charge my EV on my 190 mile round trip commute. It charges overnight at home.
I visit a public charging site far less often than I visited a petrol station when I drove ICE.

MFG have got it sussed, they have just announced another big expansion of charging infrastructure on their sites. The existing ones really are very good with usually about 8 150kW or 350kW chargers in a nicely lit area with tyre pump, vacuum and washer water dispensing adjacent. There's usually a couple of hot food options and a seating area in the shop building too. Shell are just playing at it really.

I can see how this would work in the right location, but the ability to locate a charger more-or-less anywhere surely negates the need for dedicated charging stations? Not completely of course, but when I think of the three filling stations I regularly use, I'm struggling to see how they'd be viable as charging stations as they're not near a motorway, and there's not much to do when you're there. They're used predominantly by local people who'd have more convenient charging options elsewhere.
 

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