Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[Mamorin]

I agree with you if I were running a tender I would not pick Litchurch Lane, I know they are clearing the black log now but 701s really have damaged Litchurch Lane.

Shame the production of Electrostars had to come to and end, it was a good family of trains as far as TOC seem to have been concerned.

I had hoped Stadler was going to win this tender, their trains seem to be of good build quality. Only issues are Stadler trains are quite pricey I think, and they don't have a factory in the UK.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had hoped Stadler was going to win this tender, their trains seem to be of good build quality. Only issues are Stadler trains are quite pricey I think, and they don't have a factory in the UK.

I had hoped for Stadler but expected Hitachi. But to be fair someone did say upthread that the preferred bidder is "unexpected", and CRRC would certainly fulfil that.

 

[jonesy3001]

Posts on Facebook saying that northern have been sniffing round crown point in Norwich.

 

[Mamorin]

I had hoped for Stadler but expected Hitachi. But to be fair someone did say upthread that the preferred bidder is "unexpected", and CRRC would certainly fulfil that.

I do remember somebody on here saying the preferred bidder was "unexpected". Though I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it just now.

I think CRRC was mentioned back then as well.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

Posts on Facebook saying that northern have been sniffing round crown point in Norwich.

Would make sence as it would allow for Northern to see the Flirts first hand and decide wether or not to rule Stadler out or not.

 

[Speed43125]

I do remember somebody on here saying the preferred bidder was "unexpected". Though I had forgotten about that until you mentioned it just now.

I think CRRC was mentioned back then as well.

I remember the 'unexpected comment' referring to LNER IC225 replacement, not for this tender, and certainly not a reference to CRRC.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I remember the 'unexpected comment' referring to LNER IC225 replacement, not for this tender, and certainly not a reference to CRRC.

This message:

The bids for the replacement of Northern’s 15x fleet is quite well advanced (commenced in January) with a surprise leading bidder at the moment. I can’t say anymore than that.

 

[Mamorin]

Thanks for finding the post. It was back then that I think I ruled out Stadler and I was a bit disappointed they were not the leading bidder.

 

[Speed43125]

This message:

Ah right, my bad, thanks. Still do not recall CRRC referred anywhere else for the UK market though.

 

[Mamorin]

Looking through that thread CRRC was not mentioned at all, my memory was wrong my bad.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Ah right, my bad, thanks. Still do not recall CRRC referred anywhere else for the UK market though.

I've definitely not seen references to CRRC anywhere before today.

 

[jonesy3001]

Hitachi by any chance, since they've replaced most of the 225s.

 

[Mamorin]

I rule Hitachi out on this tender as the only Bi-modes they have built for the UK are the IETs which Northern will not want.

Only commuter trains Hitachi have built are EMUs in Scotland, which due to not being Bi-modes Northern do not want.

 

[Speed43125]

I rule Hitachi out on this tender as the only Bi-modes they have built for the UK are the IETs which Northern will not want.

Only commuter trains Hitachi have built are EMUs in Scotland, which due to not being Bi-modes Northern do not want.

In fairness, given they can shrink the IET down to the 810 bodyshell length, it really isn't such a stretch to reconfigure the equipment to a Class 385 AT200 style doors at 1/4 3/4 style train.

That said, I wouldn't consider Hitachi a particularly unexpected bidder.

 

[jonesy3001]

50/50 CAF or stadler.

 

[Mamorin]

In fairness, given they can shrink the IET down to the 810 bodyshell length, it really isn't such a stretch to reconfigure the equipment to a Class 385 AT200 style doors at 1/4 3/4 style train.

That said, I wouldn't consider Hitachi a particularly unexpected bidder.

When you put it like that Hitachi could win, I agree with you when you say I don't consider them a surprise bidder.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

50/50 CAF or stadler.

Full fleet replacement=Stadler
Keeping 195s/331s=CAF

Thats how I see it, as I'm not sure if flirts can be made to work with 195s/331s.

 

[Trainbike46]

When you put it like that Hitachi could win, I agree with you when you say I don't consider them a surprise bidder.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==


Full fleet replacement=Stadler
Keeping 195s/331s=CAF

Thats how I see it, as I'm not sure if flirts can be made to work with 195s/331s.

With enough money and will, everything can be made to work. Whether it is worth it is another question.

Though keeping the 331s and 195s relatively contained wouldn't be a problem if the rest of the fleet was replaced, would it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Though keeping the 331s and 195s relatively contained wouldn't be a problem if the rest of the fleet was replaced, would it?

Given that Northern have 6 incompatible fleets now (15x, 319, 323*, 195, 331, 333), reducing that to 3 (new, 195, 331) would hardly be a massive disaster, rather an improvement.

* Allegedly 319 and 323 as built could multi, but I've never seen it happen and modifications may now prevent that.

 

[Mamorin]

* Allegedly 319 and 323 as built could multi, but I've never seen it happen and modifications may now prevent that.

Rescue only and for 323s only, in service 323s can only work in multi with themselves.

323s can not rescue a 319.

Drivers Manual for 323s explains how it works.

Wayback Machine

 

[Energy]

Is this the tweet you're on about?

CRRC have won it. Initial batch of 150 3 car AC/battery/diesel tri-mode units scheduled for delivery beginning late 2024. They wanted into the Euro rolling stock market so gave a very competitive price. They will be compatible with 331s and 195s too.

https://twitter.com/pushtim_/status/1701957975332511753?t=9zixDL_XomxfQ9FHdaYdAQ&s=19

If it's true then it is really a perfect bid for Northern, good price for the train they want (presumably with level boarding as Northern said future stock would have it) and late 2024 is excellent delivery times if true.

Being built overseas will be a big political issue...

Full fleet replacement=Stadler
Keeping 195s/331s=CAF

Thats how I see it, as I'm not sure if flirts can be made to work with 195s/331s.

I'm doubtful of CAF, Neptune has hinted before that a bimode civity isn't available in UK gauge.

I wouldn't be suprised if it was split into a 331 and bimode unit order between manufacturers.

 

[Mamorin]

Forgot Neptune had hinted before about CAF not having any UK gauge Bi-modes.

If I was Northern I would look at a full fleet replacement as to only have one type of traction, as it simplifies things.

I know that would meen sending the 195s and 331s off lease.

195s might be able to find work elsewhere, not sure about the 331s though.

 

[Energy]

Forgot Neptune had hinted before about CAF not having any UK gauge Bi-modes.

If I was Northern I would look at a full fleet replacement as to only have one type of traction, as it simplifies things.

I know that would meen sending the 195s and 331s off lease.

195s might be able to find work elsewhere, not sure about the 331s though.

2 fleets is fine tbh, Northern is big enough that neither would be a microfleet.

 

[Snow1964]

50/50 CAF or stadler.

So you are ruling out Siemens even though there are likely to be gaps between batches of tube trains built at Google, (that's in subsequent batches of tube trains actually materialise)

 

[Mamorin]

2 fleets is fine tbh, Northern is big enough that neither would be a microfleet.

In the past Northern have talked about a uniformed fleet, although that was just about reducing the number of coupler types.

So who knows maybe Northern will keep the 195s/331s and just replace everything else, as you even with a new fleet the 195s and 331s would not become a micro fleet.

 

[Peterthegreat]

So you are ruling out Siemens even though there are likely to be gaps between batches of tube trains built at Google, (that's in subsequent batches of tube trains actually materialise)

I know Google have their fingers in many pies but didn't realise that included train building

 

[skyhigh]

I know Google have their fingers in many pies but didn't realise that included train building

I presume you're joking but just in case you're not it's a typo for Goole.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I presume you're joking but just in case you're not it's a typo for Goole.

I was. Unfortunately the smiley didn't appear!

 

[Pete_uk]

I'd be interested to hear the nick names for any trains built in China

 

[Mamorin]

Given the political backlash that will come from ordering trains built in China right now, I don't think there will be a nickname for trains built in China for a long while.

 

[Bornin1980s]

Yes, the actual ITT (invitation to tender) should be this week (26 October)

ITTs will usually give the bid spec : minimum first batch size, number of cars, capacity, max speed, type of fuel, delivery date range etc

It is now October 28th. Still no news about the ITT.

 

[Stephen42]

It is now October 28th. Still no news about the ITT.

Delays during procurement processes are pretty common. The ITT itself is likely to be issued to select parties rather than publicly available, it might be releasable under FOI if they don't claim an exemption applies.

For comparison the Southeastern procurement process has been going on for a year and very little has been publicly announced beyond what was in the original call for competition. I'd expect the Northern one to be similar with limited information in the public domain prior to any award.