Northern Tender for up to 450 units

[jonesy3001]

Yes, 2028 suggests that they're expecting to make the award probably in 2024 maybe early 2025. So I think the only news we're likely to get the next twelve months or so is a shortlist.

If you click on the link in the first post, it says 26th October

 

[skyhigh]

If you click on the link in the first post, it says 26th October

"Estimated date of dispatch of invitations to tender or to participate to selected candidates"

So this is just an expression of interest stage. They are aiming to deliver the actual invitation to tender to interested builders on 26th October, not announce a winner.

 

[Snow1964]

"Estimated date of dispatch of invitations to tender or to participate to selected candidates"

So this is just an expression of interest stage. They are aiming to deliver the actual invitation to tender to interested builders on 26th October, not announce a winner.

Yes, the actual ITT (invitation to tender) should be this week (26 October)

ITTs will usually give the bid spec : minimum first batch size, number of cars, capacity, max speed, type of fuel, delivery date range etc

Very likely to be electric, with diesel generator that can be replaced by batteries in mid to late 2030s (later batches battery electric). Personally I would like to see minimum 3 cars per unit.

For quick reference,
I think Northern is ultimately looking to replace :
Class 150. 78 units, 162 vehicles
Class 155. 7 units, 14 vehicles
Class 156. 65 units, 130 vehicles
Class 158. 53 units, 114 vehicles
Class 170. 16 units, 48 vehicles (not sure if these are staying)
Class 319. 12 units, 48 vehicles
Class 323. 17 units, 51 vehicles (more expected from Midlands)
Class 333. 16 units, 64 vehicles (not sure if these staying)
Class 769. 8 units, 32 vehicles

So probably minimum of 400 vehicles, perhaps nearer 900 vehicles under options

 

[absolutelymilk]

Very likely to be electric, with diesel generator that can be replaced by batteries in mid to late 1930s (later batches battery electric).

I'm presuming you meant 2030s here?

Replacing all the sprinters would be great! Just won't hold my breath it happens anytime soon...

 

[Mamorin]

Personally I would like to see minimum 3 cars per unit.

That is what I'd expect the number of cars per unit for the sprinter replacements to be, 2 cars would be a joke.

Any EMU replacements I would hope would be 4 cars.

For quick reference,
I think Northern is ultimately looking to replace :
Class 150. 78 units, 162 vehicles
Class 155. 7 units, 14 vehicles
Class 156. 65 units, 130 vehicles
Class 158. 53 units, 114 vehicles
Class 170. 16 units, 48 vehicles (not sure if these are staying)
Class 319. 12 units, 48 vehicles
Class 323. 17 units, 51 vehicles (more expected from Midlands)
Class 333. 16 units, 64 vehicles (not sure if these staying)
Class 769. 8 units, 32 vehicles

All the sprinters will go I would expect.

I think the 323s and the 333s are planned to be with Northern until 2030 so those will stay until then, after that a 323 replacement might get looked at.

170s will most likely stay with Northern, 319s are going soon anyway so this tender means nothing in regards to the 319s.

769s will 100% be replaced, given they are simply put just 319s with a diesel engine added.

All of the units being replaced require this tender to become an order which is not guaranteed to happen.

 

[HSTEd]

All the sprinters will go I would expect.

I think the 323s and the 333s are planned to be with Northern until 2030 so those will stay until then, after that a 323 replacement might get looked at.

170s will most likely stay with Northern, 319s are going soon anyway so this tender means nothing in regards to the 319s.

769s will 100% be replaced, given they are simply put just 319s with a diesel engine added.

All of the units being replaced require this tender to become an order which is not guaranteed to happen.

Once you replace the Sprinters and 319s, it is not that much further to total fleet replacement.

Having a total fleet replacement would slash future training to a single traction type.
Given perenenial staffing shortages, which are likely to worsen, streamlining traction training to a single course for all Northern drivers is probably attractive.

 

[jeffery9098]

Once you replace the Sprinters and 319s, it is not that much further to total fleet replacement.

Having a total fleet replacement would slash future training to a single traction type.
Given perenenial staffing shortages, which are likely to worsen, streamlining traction training to a single course for all Northern drivers is probably attractive.

How come?

 

[HSTEd]

How come?

Well Northern Trains currently have (from Wikipedia, so forgive me if its incorrect in details) 373 total units.

203 of those are Sprinters of various types, and 20 more are 319/769. And then 17 more are early 90s 323s that are hurtling rapidly towards end of life.

Once you remove the Sprinters in favour of a single new procurement, you end up with a lot of training burden spread over not that many units.

It is basically reduced to three classes of CAF stock (including some mid-life units) and three handfuls of 323s, 319/769s and 170s.
I could certainly see a case for killing everything, possibly sending the 195s etc to the other users of for Sprinter/Network Turbo replacement and rationalising everyone's training burdens.

Don't want a train zoo if you can avoid it.

 

[jonesy3001]

Well Northern Trains currently have (from Wikipedia, so forgive me if its incorrect in details) 373 total units.

203 of those are Sprinters of various types, and 20 more are 319/769. And then 17 more are early 90s 323s that are hurtling rapidly towards end of life.

Once you remove the Sprinters in favour of a single new procurement, you end up with a lot of training burden spread over not that many units.

It is basically reduced to three classes of CAF stock (including some mid-life units) and three handfuls of 323s, 319/769s and 170s.
I could certainly see a case for killing everything, possibly sending the 195s etc to the other users of for Sprinter/Network Turbo replacement and rationalising everyone's training burdens.

Don't want a train zoo if you can avoid it.

There's only 2 types of CAF units, the 195s and 331s unless you know something.

 

[HSTEd]

There's only 2 types of CAF units, the 195s and 331s unless you know something.

The 333s were also built by CAF in the early 2000s.

 

[jonesy3001]

The 333s were also built by CAF in the early 2000s.

Forgot about them.

 

[Mamorin]

Easy to forget about the 333s, as they only operate in Yorkshire and there are only 16 of them. Not as well known about as their mostly scrapped sister units the 332s.

 

[Energy]

It is basically reduced to three classes of CAF stock (including some mid-life units) and three handfuls of 323s, 319/769s and 170s.
I could certainly see a case for killing everything, possibly sending the 195s etc to the other users of for Sprinter/Network Turbo replacement and rationalising everyone's training burdens.

Don't want a train zoo if you can avoid it.

The 331s and 195s are a very easy conversion (1 day IIRC). I wouldn't be surprised if the bi-mode units replaced the 769s, 170s and Sprinters with an extra 331 order replacing the 333s and 323s in the future.

 

[jonesy3001]

Easy to forget about the 333s, as they only operate in Yorkshire and there are only 16 of them. Not as well known about as their mostly scrapped sister units the 332s.

I can't miss them as they serve Menston station which is up the road from where I live.

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Will northern order more CAF stock with the new tender or have a different build that'll go compatible with the CAF units, personally I hope they stick with CAF.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't miss them as they serve Menston station which is up the road from where I live.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

Will northern order more CAF stock with the new tender or have a different build that'll go compatible with the CAF units, personally I hope they stick with CAF.

No hope of finding it to quote but I saw a Tweet a few days back suggesting the preferred bidder was CRRC, i.e. the Chinese company, who want into the European market so have offered a very good price, and they will be 195 AND 331 compatible (which the 195s and 331s themselves aren't!)

Can't corroborate it, though, but it is an interesting development if true.

 

[jonesy3001]

No hope of finding it to quote but I saw a Tweet a few days back suggesting the preferred bidder was CRRC, i.e. the Chinese company, who want into the European market so have offered a very good price, and they will be 195 AND 331 compatible (which the 195s and 331s themselves aren't!)

Can't corroborate it, though, but it is an interesting development if true.

Probably find out on Thursday.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No hope of finding it to quote but I saw a Tweet a few days back suggesting the preferred bidder was CRRC, i.e. the Chinese company, who want into the European market so have offered a very good price, and they will be 195 AND 331 compatible

Is that a different company to CSRE, a Chinese company who quite a few years ago were hopeful of breaking into the British rail market and whose MD of the British section was once a member of this website?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that a different company to CSRE, a Chinese company who quite a few years ago were hopeful of breaking into the British rail market and whose MD of the British section was once a member of this website?

CSRE doesn't seem to exist any more (from a quick Google) so perhaps the company has been renamed?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSR_Corporation_Limited

CSR Corporation Limited (CSR), formerly known as China South Locomotive & Rolling Stock Corp was a Chinese manufacturer of locomotive and rolling stock.

In 2015, the company merged with China CNR to form CRRC.

So it's a merger.

 

[jonesy3001]

No hope of finding it to quote but I saw a Tweet a few days back suggesting the preferred bidder was CRRC, i.e. the Chinese company, who want into the European market so have offered a very good price, and they will be 195 AND 331 compatible (which the 195s and 331s themselves aren't!)

Can't corroborate it, though, but it is an interesting development if true.

Is this the tweet you're on about?

CRRC have won it. Initial batch of 150 3 car AC/battery/diesel tri-mode units scheduled for delivery beginning late 2024. They wanted into the Euro rolling stock market so gave a very competitive price. They will be compatible with 331s and 195s too.

https://twitter.com/pushtim_/status/1701957975332511753?t=9zixDL_XomxfQ9FHdaYdAQ&s=19

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this the tweet you're on about.
CRRC have won it. Initial batch of 150 3 car AC/battery/diesel tri-mode units scheduled for delivery beginning late 2024. They wanted into the Euro rolling stock market so gave a very competitive price. They will be compatible with 331s and 195s too.

https://twitter.com/pushtim_/status/1701957975332511753?t=9zixDL_XomxfQ9FHdaYdAQ&s=19

Yes, that's the one. You're better at using Twitter's awful search facility than me, I did try!

That account appears to be owned by a Northern guard so this could of course be messroom rumour, which sometimes is and sometimes isn't correct, though it is quite specific.

 

[jonesy3001]

Yes, that's the one. You're better at using Twitter's awful search facility than me, I did try!

It was me who replied to the tweet but got no reply.
Had to check my replies.

 

[javelin]

I'm confused, the ITT hasn't even been released yet so how could anyone have won it? There aren't any formal bids yet. Sounds like nonsense.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm confused, the ITT hasn't even been released yet so how could anyone have won it? There aren't any formal bids yet. Sounds like nonsense.

It is not unusual for tenders to be functionally won before they are even put out.

If CRRC has been talking to the tender people, it may have become apparent that they are going to win and it could be a done deal even if it isn't actually a done deal yet.

 

[Mamorin]

So if CRRC have won the tender it won't be a full fleet replacement, makes sense since Northern has talked about wanting a single coupler type in the past.

My only big issue with these new trains being 195 and 331 compatible is we may end up with 2 and 3 car DMUs and 3 car EMUs, since thats what the 195s and 331s are.

Really the DMUs should be 3 cars and EMUs 4 cars, also not sure if new trains have have end gangways if they are to be able to work with 195s and 331s given those don't have end gangways.

I know the option for more centre cars is in the tender but that does not mean that option will get taken up.

Would be nice if the seating on any new trains if comfy, but it will most likely be the same seats as on the 195s and 331s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if CRRC have won the tender it won't be a full fleet replacement, makes sense since Northern has talked about wanting a single coupler type in the past.

My only big issue with these new trains being 195 and 331 compatible is we may end up with 2 and 3 car DMUs and 3 car EMUs, since thats what the 195s and 331s are.

Really the DMUs should be 3 cars and EMUs 4 cars, also not sure if new trains have have end gangways if they are to be able to work with 195s and 331s given those don't have end gangways.

I know the option for more centre cars is in the tender but that does not mean that option will get taken up.

Would be nice if the seating on any new trains if comfy, but it will most likely be the same seats as on the 195s and 331s.

The tender doesn't ask for any pure DMUs, it's one fleet of bi-/tri-modes. As such due to a lack of underframe space there will be no 2-car units.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Yes, that's the one. You're better at using Twitter's awful search facility than me, I did try!

That account appears to be owned by a Northern guard so this could of course be messroom rumour, which sometimes is and sometimes isn't correct, though it is quite specific.

The tweet/account is now protected so no longer visible to most (perhaps all) Twitter/X users.

In my experience, if this person is close enough to the procurement to know the outcome, then they have probably committed a disciplinary offence (certainly would be in my place), so I actually hope it is just rumour. It would be quite a controversial award, both from a rail industry perspective when UK based factories seem to be facing difficulties with their order books, and more generally given how political relationships with China have cooled in the last years.

 

[Mamorin]

The tender doesn't ask for any pure DMUs, it's one fleet of bi-/tri-modes. As such due to a lack of underframe space there will be no 2-car units.

Woops forgot the tender was for Bi-/tri-modes. Thanks for correcting me.

Thank goodness there will be no 2 car units, glad to hear the new trains will be 3 cars at minimum. Hoping the EMU replacements will be 4 cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

It would be quite a controversial award, both from a rail industry perspective when UK based factories seem to be facing difficulties with their order books.

With jobs apparently at risk at albeit only at Litchurch Lane at the moment a tender going out to CRRC would indeed by controversial, and thats not mentioning the possible political backlash at giving a Chinese company the tender.

 

[jonesy3001]

I honestly think northern will stick with CAF depending how far off they are from completing the TfW units and keep the factory open in newport.

 

[Vectron383]

I really hope CRRC don’t win this tender. Mainly because a) there are a large number of UK based factories that could use the extra work and b) the treatment of workers by China (Waratah sets in Australia came under controversy because of slave labor in parts of the production pipeline) and our general relationship with China right now. What’s to say we sanction them after, god forbid, invading Taiwan and suddenly Northern have a fleet of trains with no manufacturer spares support?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With jobs apparently at risk at albeit only at Litchurch Lane at the moment a tender going out to CRRC would indeed by controversial, and thats not mentioning the possible political backlash at giving a Chinese company the tender.

To be honest Litchurch Lane may have engineered their own demise, as it were, by producing such unreliable junk in the 701s. Were I running a tender I would be more than tempted to blacklist them due to that debacle.

Having said that, I don't understand why those units are so problematic when the 24m Aventras seem to be plying their trade quite happily now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2023 ==

I really hope CRRC don’t win this tender. Mainly because a) there are a large number of UK based factories that could use the extra work and b) the treatment of workers by China (Waratah sets in Australia came under controversy because of slave labor in parts of the production pipeline) and our general relationship with China right now. What’s to say we sanction them after, god forbid, invading Taiwan and suddenly Northern have a fleet of trains with no manufacturer spares support?

Given that I think this is likely in the coming years, it's one of the reasons I am very disinclined to buy a Chinese EV, so it is a good point.