CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Jacob Porrett]

Still 10 197s stored at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal. 197113/117/124 and 197023/025/026/028 and 3x UID 2 car 197s.

 

[sd0733]

197s have been cleared in passenger service Cardiff to Swansea since yesterday.

Excellent, some good progress. Last I was told just a few days ago was within 2 weeks so seems to have come on nicely.

 

[Western 52]

Any news on whether the issue at Ferryside has been resolved yet?

 

[SeaKing]

is 197123 built and where is it.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

is 197123 built and where is it.

Not yet built as far as I can tell, it's definitely not at Donnington yet. What's so special about this one?

Also does anyone know which 197 is the one with the Welsh Dragon vinyls, captured on camera at CAF Newport a couple months back?

 

[SeaKing]

Not yet built as far as I can tell, it's definitely not at Donnington yet. What's so special about this one?

Also does anyone know which 197 is the one with the Welsh Dragon vinyls, captured on camera at CAF Newport a couple months back?

Someone i was with 2 weeks ago thought it was at the back of Chester Depot i couldn't positively id it. I think they must of muddled numbers

 

[Jez]

That is good progress, not much longer until West Wales gets cleared for 197s I suspect. There's quite a bit of the TfW network cleared for 197s now, we're getting closer

Hopefully clearance of passenger services to Carmarthen wont be far behind even if we have to wait longer for them to run further West to Milford and Fishguard. Its all progressing albeit very slowly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am told by people who have been involved with the 197 ERTMS testing that because the 197's and 158's use slightly different versions of ERTMS they can not run on the line at the same time. So ERTMS 197's can only be tested at night when all 158's are off the line. This will mean that there will have to be a date set where it will be 100% switch over from the 158's to 197's for passenger services.

Once displaced from the Cambrian, TfW's 158s will be in demand to work ETCS routes elsewhere as it spreads round the network.
EMR's Nottingham-Norwich service is one such, with ETCS due to be fitted on the ECML north of Peterborough.
They will have to be compatible with the latest ETCS spec for that.

Edit:
This is off topic I'm afraid.
Not worth a new speculative thread, but the issue of recycling TfW 158s will come up sooner or later.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Someone i was with 2 weeks ago thought it was at the back of Chester Depot i couldn't positively id it. I think they must of muddled numbers

Yeah definitely a muddle I'd say, 123 hasn't yet shown itself!

 

[Lurcheroo]

Once displaced from the Cambrian, TfW's 158s will be in demand to work ETCS routes elsewhere as it spreads round the network.
EMR's Nottingham-Norwich service is one such, with ETCS due to be fitted on the ECML north of Peterborough.
They will have to be compatible with the latest ETCS spec for that.

is that guaranteed or speculative ? My understanding is that the the agreement is once they’re handed back, the cabs will be reverted to standard and all ERTMS equipment removed. Then displaced to other TOC’s (GWR is the most consistent one I hear). Would be great to know if they’re going to keep their ERTMS kit for use elsewhere.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Sep 2023 ==

I don't believe for one second the 158s won't be able to work at the same time as the 197s. For one thing, the whole line was shut last year for several days for ERTMS to be upgraded to make it compatible with 197s. And for another, it's going to be very hard to train MCN and PWL drivers if they can't drive them on the Cambrian.

The last I heard, one of the DIs from another depot who is part of the 197 training team is meant to be learning the Cambrian so they can train Cambrian drivers. Can't see them doing that if they need to shut the line to normal traffic to do. I suspect something's been lost in communication somewhere.

Whilst I agree it does seem a bit crazy, I was told by one of the MCN DI’s who has been out at night in the 197’s with the CAF team doing the Cambrian testing, that there is a different software version for the RBC that has to be changed over for the 197’s to run and hence the reason 158’s and 197’s can’t go at the same time.

It does beg the question as to how the 97’s would continue to run with 197’s in operation. Maybe they will have to have an upgrade that has been deemed pointless or uneconomical for the 158’s. The last part is purely speculation.

Not heard anything at the depot about another depots DI learning the Cambrian.
Currently MCN driver numbers are going above what is needed so that the DI’s can be released from the link to do 197 training for MCN and PWL drivers. Then they will allow natural wastage to bring it back down from 52 drivers to 48.

 

[60159]

197049 is now accepted into service. 197101 and 106 should be the next 2 to be accepted.

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

Still 10 197s stored at Donnington Rail Freight Terminal. 197113/117/124 and 197023/025/026/028 and 3x UID 2 car 197s.

Could be wrong but with 024 in training and these 7 at Donnington only 12 left plus 11x/1s.
Maybe not only near future Derby redundancies.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

is that guaranteed or speculative ? My understanding is that the the agreement is once they’re handed back, the cabs will be reverted to standard and all ERTMS equipment removed. Then displaced to other TOC’s (GWR is the most consistent one I hear). Would be great to know if they’re going to keep their ERTMS kit for use elsewhere.

Well it's speculative.
But wouldn't it be crazy (but just like the railway) to rip out the ETCS kit just as the technology is being rolled out seriously across GB.
Maybe 158s will be history before ETCS takes off...

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder that this thread is for actual updates regarding CAF Civity for TfW please.

If anyone would like to discuss anything else (such as trip planning, or anything of a speculative nature) please create a new thread - if there isn't one already - in the appropriate forum section.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Elsewhere it has now been said that the 1312 Cardiff to Swansea will be formed of a 197 on Friday. I think (but may be wrong) this service then forms 1D65 1505 Swansea to Chester.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I don't believe for one second the 158s won't be able to work at the same time as the 197s. For one thing, the whole line was shut last year for several days for ERTMS to be upgraded to make it compatible with 197s. And for another, it's going to be very hard to train MCN and PWL drivers if they can't drive them on the Cambrian.

The last I heard, one of the DIs from another depot who is part of the 197 training team is meant to be learning the Cambrian so they can train Cambrian drivers. Can't see them doing that if they need to shut the line to normal traffic to do. I suspect something's been lost in communication somewhere.

So, I’ve had a chat with some of the DI’s again, as you say, I’ve lost something in communication somewhere, so 158’s and 197’s can run together BUT the plan has apparently always been not to because of the issues with units not being able to couple together and subsequently being able to rescue a failed train could become a complete nightmare with it being single line.

Well it's speculative.
But wouldn't it be crazy (but just like the railway) to rip out the ETCS kit just as the technology is being rolled out seriously across GB.
Maybe 158s will be history before ETCS takes off...

it would seem a strange move when they currently also work on non ETCS routes perfectly fine in Level 0.

I suppose we will have to see what happens to them.

 

[Jez]

Elsewhere it has now been said that the 1312 Cardiff to Swansea will be formed of a 197 on Friday. I think (but may be wrong) this service then forms 1D65 1505 Swansea to Chester.

Could be the first 197 from my local station!

Yes that is correct, the same unit usually forms 1312 Cardiff-Swansea and then the 1505 from Swansea-Cardiff/Chester.

 

[Bob Price]

Watching the Cardiff web cam today I noticed 197020 running trips up to Gloucester and back. Driver training perhaps? They are TFW coded trips.

 

[Caaardiff]

Training tends to be Cardiff - Swansea and Carmarthen - Swansea.
May be a change of training route but more than likely route clearing the Gloucester line.

 

[craigybagel]

So, I’ve had a chat with some of the DI’s again, as you say, I’ve lost something in communication somewhere, so 158’s and 197’s can run together BUT the plan has apparently always been not to because of the issues with units not being able to couple together and subsequently being able to rescue a failed train could become a complete nightmare with it being single line.

Thanks, that does make a bit more sense. 197s and 158s can rescue each other but it requires an adaptor and it's a 5mph to clear the line job so definitely not ideal!

it would seem a strange move when they currently also work on non ETCS routes perfectly fine in Level 0.

To a point. The 2 minutes wait to set it up every time you change end/formation is a bit annoying. Hopefully the 197s will be better in that respect! Though it's also a very quick an easy step to isolate the system altogether if needs be (just not so easy to reinstate, hence why it's normally left on all the time).

Could be the first 197 from my local station!

Yes that is correct, the same unit usually forms 1312 Cardiff-Swansea and then the 1505 from Swansea-Cardiff/Chester.

Bear in mind that the 1505 will actually be running to Manchester temporarily from Friday whilst only one bore of Dinmore tunnel is open.

Watching the Cardiff web cam today I noticed 197020 running trips up to Gloucester and back. Driver training perhaps? They are TFW coded trips.

Training tends to be Cardiff - Swansea and Carmarthen - Swansea.
May be a change of training route but more than likely route clearing the Gloucester line.

As I understand it, some DIs from the North of the network are learning Cardiff - Gloucester so they can be seconded to Cardiff to help with 197 training.

 

[Lurcheroo]

197s and 158s can rescue each other but it requires an adaptor and it's a 5mph to clear the line job so definitely not ideal!

Sorry, he did actually say that and implied that you might also need a forklift to lift the emergency coupling gear into place along with a fitter on board so it would be nearly impossible for it to be done to any practical use in any real world scenario. I think he said it was 5mph because you wouldn’t be able to get the breaks off on the failed unit?

To a point. The 2 minutes wait to set it up every time you change end/formation is a bit annoying. Hopefully the 197s will be better in that respect! Though it's also a very quick an easy step to isolate the system altogether if needs be (just not so easy to reinstate, hence why it's normally left on all the time).

I suppose it wouldn’t be such a big issue if it was isolated and then only had to be reinstated when the system wants to be used again. Although you would lose that nice digital speedo and be left with the smaller analogue one.

 

[sd0733]

First 197 diagram to Swansea is in for Tomorrow, the info that others had looks to be correct and it is booked to work:
13:12 Cardiff C to Swansea
15:05 Swansea to Manchester Pic
20:30 Manchester Pic to Cardiff

 

[Jez]

First 197 diagram to Swansea is in for Tomorrow, the info that others had looks to be correct and it is booked to work:
13:12 Cardiff C to Swansea
15:05 Swansea to Manchester Pic
20:30 Manchester Pic to Cardiff

Excellent! Hopefully I will be able to catch it. Finally they can run through to Swansea!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

First 197 diagram to Swansea is in for Tomorrow, the info that others had looks to be correct and it is booked to work:
13:12 Cardiff C to Swansea
15:05 Swansea to Manchester Pic
20:30 Manchester Pic to Cardiff

Now unlikely to happen, TfW Journeycheck reporting buses continue HFD - SHR tomorrow only due to overrunning engineering works.

 

[Anonymous10]

Now unlikely to happen, TfW Journeycheck reporting buses continue HFD - SHR tomorrow only due to overrunning engineering works.

I suppose it could still run if they can go to Swansea but not likely.

 

[childwallblues]

Excellent! Hopefully I will be able to catch it. Finally they can run through to Swansea!

Don't get too exited. They are nothing special.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I suppose it could still run if they can go to Swansea but not likely.

The 197 forming that though comes from the North in the morning.

 

[Jez]

Don't get too exited. They are nothing special.

i have been on a 197 several times including trips from Chester to Manchester Pic, Manchester Pic to Manchester Airport and more recently Cardiff to Newport. They in my opinion are fantastic trains.

 

[MrCheeseGrater]

Don't get too exited. They are nothing special.

Probably not as nice as 175s/158s/Mark 4's but they're far better than the 150s/153s which have become commonplace.

 

[Jez]

Now unlikely to happen, TfW Journeycheck reporting buses continue HFD - SHR tomorrow only due to overrunning engineering works.

Damn! I had a feeling the engineering works might overrun which is what put me off doing a Manchester journey this weekend. Didnt fancy a 2+ hour trip on the replacement bus.

 

[Techniquest]

Over-running works, boo I had looked forward to a journey heading north out of Hereford tomorrow, oh well I can happily go elsewhere instead.

One hopes the 197 will still work to Swansea, and simply terminate in Hereford instead. I'll be away doing something else, as like @Jez I cannot stomach the idea of a 2 hour rail replacement bus in both directions. Not in the same day, no thank you!