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CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.
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Anonymous10
Established Member
No problem it might be longer not sure I know it's supposed to be the last major route to get them.
I got my first 3 car 197 today (197110). Also 197048 and 197014. This brings my total number of 197s to 11. Pleased to get into double figures and also get a 3 car at last.
The 3 car was fairly busy but i managed to have a quick walk through end to end. The front and back carriages seem identical to the 2 cars with the middle carriage having the extra toilet. When paired up with a 2 car on the Swansea to Manchesters this will be tons of extra capacity.
The 3 car was fairly busy but i managed to have a quick walk through end to end. The front and back carriages seem identical to the 2 cars with the middle carriage having the extra toilet. When paired up with a 2 car on the Swansea to Manchesters this will be tons of extra capacity.
Class 197 at Hereford, on Saturday:
P1630479 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630480 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
20230909_183612 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630485 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630488 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
I quite like the look of those units.
P1630479 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630480 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
20230909_183612 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630485 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630488 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
I quite like the look of those units.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Nice pictures. You could create a thread in Trip Planning & Reports to report your personal trips and sightings if you liked, to keep this one free for updatesClass 197 at Hereford, on Saturday:
P1630479 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630480 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630483 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
20230909_183612 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630485 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
P1630488 by Geogregor*, on Flickr
I quite like the look of those units.
It will almost certainly be the last of all routes to get them unfortunately. Whilst December 2024 had been the hope I am now hearing it won’t be until sometime mid 2025. I could see that getting pushed back further too. Some stations on the coast line need major work doing to accommodate the 197’s.
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Is that for introduction of 197s or for the line to be 100% 197/no 158
I am told by people who have been involved with the 197 ERTMS testing that because the 197's and 158's use slightly different versions of ERTMS they can not run on the line at the same time. So ERTMS 197's can only be tested at night when all 158's are off the line. This will mean that there will have to be a date set where it will be 100% switch over from the 158's to 197's for passenger services.
Philip
On Moderation
Any indication when the first 197s will run in service to Carmarthen/Milford?
I thought that rumour had been contradicted, so it isn't 100% certain that 158s and 197s cannot be on the Cambrian at the same time? What is known however is that the 158s and 197s cannot couple to each other (at least not in such a way that is suitable for regular passenger service). So, even if the ETCS/ETRMS concerns are not valid, the only way to switch over gradually would be to eliminate all portion working (which is a core element of the service provision) during the transition period. For this reason I had expected (and feared, because I really don't think 197s belong anywhere near Cambrian services) that they would try to switch over this autumn while the Cambrian Coast is closed for Barmouth bridge works (since the Aberystywth-Birmingham-Holyhead curcuit could presumably be run by fixed 4-car formations at present with no joins/splits) but this doesn't sound like it's going to be the case.
I'll ask and double check on the 158's and 197's in service at the same time thing if I can.
you are right, can only be coupled together using an adapter for emergency purposes only, such as recuing a tranded unit.
If they could run them at the same time then it would be possible to run 197's on the intermediate hourly services that do not attach or detach at Machynlleth for Pwllheli services.
There is currently only 1 or 2 units that has ERTMS equipment fitted. The ERTMS units will be the last ones off the production line I believe.
197's will likely not be seen on cambrian line services untill 2025 at the earliest.
Whether or not they will be better than the158's, only time will tell. There will be somethings better and somethings worse. Overall I think the 158's would still be better from a passenger point of view. For conductors, I could see it being 50/50 as to which units they prefer. some pro's: 197's get a crew door in the cab, can view CCTV live, Aircon in the rear cab!!, selective door opening (especially great for the 4 car service on the coast should it continue), station dwell times on busy coast services should be reduced. But then, the access ramp is in 2 parts and awkward, there is a lack of luggage racks, bike spaces will be a point of contention and worst of all, only 1 toilet per 2 car unit.
Drivers I think will majority prefer the 197's.
My own thought is that if the 197's have to come to the cambrian, it would be amazing to see 3 car units in the summer, particulalry on the coast.
If we could avoid the 197's and keep the 158's, then do what GWR did and chop a number of 2 cars in half and make some 3 car 158's. Great for coast services in summer and great on the non portion worked mainline service.
Imagine seeing a variety of 2,3,4,5 and 6 car workings on the cambrian, absouletly fantastic to help reduce over crowding. lots of services, too busy for 2 cars, not busy enough to justify 4.
childwallblues
Established Member
Very rare appearance these days was 150258 on the Chester to Lime Street service last Friday.
Thats a very good question! Its feels like they will never reach Swansea, Carmarthen and Milford. Can we expect them to make their debut on the West Wales services once the blockade on the Marches ends or will it be a longer wait?
There's further meetings about acceptance next week which should enable some issues to be investigated and ironed out, across the network not just West in particular.
Wouldn't expect anything west of Cardiff just yet although it is getting closer
Wouldn't expect anything west of Cardiff just yet although it is getting closer
southernyoshi
Member
- Joined
- 12 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 166
Will they ever appear here on the Cambrian, and is the upgrade to a full hourly service dependent on them? I don't mind the 158s so I'm in no hurry for 197s themselves, but if we need 197s for the hourly service it'll be frustrating...
TT-ONR-NRN
Veteran Member
Assuming you mean hourly to Aberystwyth. It’s definitely not happening anytime soon to Pwllheli.
Anonymous10
Established Member
TFW have ETCS 197's on order which are supposed to be the last to arrive. So will be at least another year until they are seen on the Cambrian. There's still chunks of the network where they aren't even cleared yet so work to get the remaining routes and non-ETCS units in service will come first. With the additional 197's, it may free up 158's to boost Cambrian capacity, maybe even next summer.
My understanding is that TFW have said that it will be a consistent 1 train per hour between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth from the May 2024 timetable change. As always, they can push that date back if they need to. They are committing to a number of service improvements elsewhere in the December 2023 but have pushed back a few to a later date. So it will remain to be seen if that will happen for the Cambrian in May2024. Nothing has been announced to say that it ain’t happen (yet).
With there being 24 158’s in TFW’s fleet and 21 2car ERTMS 197’s on order, there is enough 158’s to provided the hourly service, this just relys on them being free’d up by 197’s taking over their diagrams on the rest of the Network.
southernyoshi
Member
- Joined
- 12 Sep 2014
- Messages
- 166
Yeah I mean to Aberystwyth, although I'm east of Machynlleth (Newtown ) so it doesn't matter really. That's very good to know about the hourly service not being reliant on 197s coming to the line - in that case like I say, I don't mind the 158s staying. Wouldn't be too surprised if they do stay actually, save having to have a sub fleet of 197s & the overnight changeover you talk about above.
It makes no difference whether it's a 197 or 158. It'll be a sub fleet. From a maintenance perspective, the ETCS 197's won't be much different to the Non-ETCS, so will have commonality in parts and procedures. Machynlleth will be maintaining the ETCS 197's but heavy maintenance will be done at Chester for all units.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's block introductions of the 197's. Whether that will be mean from one day all 158's will stop and all 197's will start, with 197's used elsewhere until then. Or whether the signalling system will allow split usage to enable 197's to work Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury and 158's to continue Machynlleth-Pwllheli for a while. I believe the signalling system will require an upgrade which may mean the 158's can't work alongside the 197's though.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's block introductions of the 197's. Whether that will be mean from one day all 158's will stop and all 197's will start, with 197's used elsewhere until then. Or whether the signalling system will allow split usage to enable 197's to work Aberystwyth-Shrewsbury and 158's to continue Machynlleth-Pwllheli for a while. I believe the signalling system will require an upgrade which may mean the 158's can't work alongside the 197's though.
craigybagel
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2012
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- 5,829
I don't believe for one second the 158s won't be able to work at the same time as the 197s. For one thing, the whole line was shut last year for several days for ERTMS to be upgraded to make it compatible with 197s. And for another, it's going to be very hard to train MCN and PWL drivers if they can't drive them on the Cambrian.
The last I heard, one of the DIs from another depot who is part of the 197 training team is meant to be learning the Cambrian so they can train Cambrian drivers. Can't see them doing that if they need to shut the line to normal traffic to do. I suspect something's been lost in communication somewhere.
The last I heard, one of the DIs from another depot who is part of the 197 training team is meant to be learning the Cambrian so they can train Cambrian drivers. Can't see them doing that if they need to shut the line to normal traffic to do. I suspect something's been lost in communication somewhere.
197s have been cleared in passenger service Cardiff to Swansea since yesterday.
Excellent news. Let's hope we see a few in service once the Hereford to Shrewsbury block ends
Dai Corner
Established Member
- Joined
- 20 Jul 2015
- Messages
- 6,995
Set swap at Swansea?
Could do Swansea to Chester instead of splitting at Cardiff or just split a few of the Manchester to West Wales at Swansea. Its certainly progress.
On a Sunday quite a few terminate at Swansea with only 1 train every 2 hours going further West.
Techniquest
Veteran Member
That is good progress, not much longer until West Wales gets cleared for 197s I suspect. There's quite a bit of the TfW network cleared for 197s now, we're getting closer 