CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Richard Scott]

They have different couplers so no they can't. Only other sprinters and 170s can work with 158s.

Seen a 153 work with a 170.

 

[Russel]

If I was told a few years ago that the Conwy Valley would one day see brand new trains with big windows, comfortable seating, USB charging and WiFi, I'd have laughed...

Here is 197011 at North Llanrwst yesterday.

197011 - North Llanrwst by Adam P, on Flickr

 

[175001]

If I was told a few years ago that the Conwy Valley would one day see brand new trains with big windows, comfortable seating, USB charging and WiFi, I'd have laughed...

Here is 197011 at North Llanrwst yesterday.

197011 - North Llanrwst by Adam P, on Flickr

Indeed. And some in here want to see it closed...

 

[Dai Corner]

Indeed. And some in here want to see it closed...

To clarify my position, I don't think anyone here wants to see it closed. I've speculated on whether an objective view as part of an integrated transport policy might recommend that though, and noted that after an initial period of sporadic operation TfW have left the urban Newport-Crosskeys corridor to the buses which serve it better than trains at little or no cost to the taxpayer. The same reasoning might apply in rural areas.

 

[Bob Price]

To clarify my position, I don't think anyone here wants to see it closed. I've speculated on whether an objective view as part of an integrated transport policy might recommend that though, and noted that after an initial period of sporadic operation TfW have left the urban Newport-Crosskeys corridor to the buses which serve it better than trains at little or no cost to the taxpayer. The same reasoning might apply in rural areas.

The Ebbw Vale line though is being upgraded in order to allow more trains from Crosskeys into Newport to avoid the congestion from the Eastern valley into Newport. I don't think it's fair to say TfW have abandoned it.

 

[Dai Corner]

The Ebbw Vale line though is being upgraded in order to allow more trains from Crosskeys into Newport to avoid the congestion from the Eastern valley into Newport. I don't think it's fair to say TfW have abandoned it.

All the engineering work is at Newbridge and north thereof and is to allow Newport trains to reach Ebbw Vale. There will still only be one per hour and there is no infrastructure reason why Newport-Crosskeys trains couldn't still be running while the work is in progress.

 

[Krokodil]

All the engineering work is at Newbridge and north thereof and is to allow Newport trains to reach Ebbw Vale. There will still only be one per hour and there is no infrastructure reason why Newport-Crosskeys trains couldn't still be running while the work is in progress.

But as you say, the bus service between Newport and Crosskeys is adequate. The service didn't justify itself as it stood, its true value will only appear once the service is running through to Ebbw Vale.

I suspect that the main victims of the timetable review will be frequencies in the Valleys. Most of the market there was commuters. Abandon the plans to go to 4tph throughout and you free up units for other work. 398s can't swap to many other duties but they could do some of the shorter journeys planned to be 756s, which in turn can displace 231s onto more mainline work.

 

[Dai Corner]

I suspect that the main victims of the timetable review will be frequencies in the Valleys. Most of the market there was commuters. Abandon the plans to go to 4tph throughout and you free up units for other work. 398s can't swap to many other duties but they could do some of the shorter journeys planned to be 756s, which in turn can displace 231s onto more mainline work

That would make the most sense. Use units where they can earn the most. Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, and TfW have their eye on Bristol too. The TfW CEO James Price has admitted that the Marches is their only profitable line.

We already know the 398s are going to be introduced on the existing timetable. Maybe if loadings are disappointing we'll never see much more? It would be a waste of the new loops, platforms and signalling though....

 

[Tom125]

That would make the most sense. Use units where they can earn the most. Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, and TfW have their eye on Bristol too. The TfW CEO James Price has admitted that the Marches is their only profitable line.

We already know the 398s are going to be introduced on the existing timetable. Maybe if loadings are disappointing we'll never see much more? It would be a waste of the new loops, platforms and signalling though....

Let’s hope that abandoning 4ph to the heads of the valleys is not the outcome of the timetable review, after all we’ve been promised so much by TfW the failure to deliver would be a catastrophic breach of trust. As for Ebbw Vale the second hourly service should be Cardiff Central via Newport (Cardiff is where people from my area want to go!). The sooner we get the new trains on the Ebbw line the better- we’ve been dealt a serious downgrade with the 170s going.

 

[Krokodil]

The TfW CEO James Price has admitted that the Marches is their only profitable line.

We don't know the detail of that though. How are "Marches services" defined? Is it purely Cardiff-Manchester? Milford Haven-Manchester? Cardiff-Holyhead too?

I doubt that they're profitable along all sections at all times (Milford Haven-Carmarthen for example), and likewise there will be profit in many parts of the other services. Shrewsbury-Birmingham is likely to be profitable but it may not look like it is on paper if it is aggregated with the rest of the journey from Aberystwyth. Likewise Chester-Manchester will be profitable and many of those services will have profitable loadings at least as far as Rhyl if not Colwyn Bay.

 

[Dai Corner]

We don't know the detail of that though. How are "Marches services" defined? Is it purely Cardiff-Manchester? Milford Haven-Manchester? Cardiff-Holyhead too?

I doubt that they're profitable along all sections at all times (Milford Haven-Carmarthen for example), and likewise there will be profit in many parts of the other services. Shrewsbury-Birmingham is likely to be profitable but it may not look like it is on paper if it is aggregated with the rest of the journey from Aberystwyth. Likewise Chester-Manchester will be profitable and many of those services will have profitable loadings at least as far as Rhyl if not Colwyn Bay.

I'd imagine he meant Cardiff or maybe Swansea to Manchester, but who knows?

If I had to define 'the Marches line' I'd probably say Newport-Crewe.

We've read of healthy loadings (and severe overcrowding) along the north coast but what's it like outside the holiday season?

 

[skyhigh]

Seen a 153 work with a 170.

As the post you quoted says 150, 153, 155, 156, 158 and 170s are all compatible with each other.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If I was told a few years ago that the Conwy Valley would one day see brand new trains with big windows, comfortable seating, USB charging and WiFi, I'd have laughed...

Here is 197011 at North Llanrwst yesterday.

197011 - North Llanrwst by Adam P, on Flickr

And to see that there for blooming Ffestiniog while a 150 trundles down to Cardiff makes me want to laugh, or rather cry. Or rather forget the gap between the train and the platform edge.

 

[Krokodil]

If I had to define 'the Marches line' I'd probably say Newport-Crewe.

Funny that you mention it but the service I boarded the other day was virtually empty between Cardiff and Newport, then wedged to Shrewsbury. At Crewe (engineering divert vice Wrexham) the train packed out again before being swapped for a longer formation at Chester. On that basis I'd say that quite a bit of Marches business is people avoiding XC for journeys to/from SW England. There's a market, I'm sure for a direct service between at least Hereford and Bristol.

We've read of healthy loadings (and severe overcrowding) along the north coast but what's it like outside the holiday season?

Holiday traffic these days lasts all of the way from Easter until September. Schools kicking out just mean that "overcrowding" becomes "passengers left behind".

Saturdays will be busy for 10 months of the year (November and most of January are quieter for leisure travel). I'm now seeing three car sets (where provided) be just as crowded now (actual passengers onboard per seat) as two car sets on the same services were in 2019.

I can think of certain services that will be busy come-what-may, at any time of the year and on any day of the week. 1V95 for example is often full & standing from Bangor. This will be partly due to ferry traffic and partly because of the university.

On the wider subject of profitability, TfW would be well-advised to stop flogging cheap Advances for peanuts on busy services. If you can fill a train up at walk-up prices then you should do so, Advances were supposed to be yield management to try and spread the load.

The overcrowding will also be suppressing demand on this route. Partly because passengers get off of the wedged trains saying "next time we'll drive" and partly because fares are much higher here than on the South Wales Main Line, as part of a policy dating back to BR to price off demand. TfW did cut fares in North Wales by 10% in 2019 but as an example the unavailability of Day Return tickets compared with similar distances down south means that North Wales passengers often pay more. It's important to note that this fare cut was deemed to have brought in more in extra fares than it lost through the cheaper prices.

Bangor is a large source of untapped demand, as it only has an hourly service for most of the day. If the direct Manchester service goes ahead it will be well patronised, growing passenger numbers rather than merely abstracting from other trains.

Llandudno used to have a half-hourly service (hourly direct to Manchester, hourly shuttles to connect with mainline trains at Llandudno Junction). At the moment, rather than shuttling the unit sits in the platform with the engine running for 45 minutes. Not running those shuttles saves virtually nothing in costs (minimal extra fuel, no unit or crew diagrams saved), but provided more attractive connections and journey times for passengers from Birmingham or Cardiff.

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And to see that there for blooming Ffestiniog while a 150 trundles down to Cardiff makes me want to laugh, or rather cry. Or rather forget the gap between the train and the platform edge.

Sometimes operational expediency has to trump creature comforts. Until there are no restrictions on the operation of 197s (things like overnight servicing at Canton, and route clearance west of Cardiff) then you will see 150s on diagrams that can't be worked in full by 197s.

 

[Richard Scott]

As the post you quoted says 150, 153, 155, 156, 158 and 170s are all compatible with each other.

Oops, I misread it as only sprinter class was 158. Sorry.

 

[Peter Sarf]

And to see that there for blooming Ffestiniog while a 150 trundles down to Cardiff makes me want to laugh, or rather cry. Or rather forget the gap between the train and the platform edge.

Well we will ruin that idea for you - it'l be 231s for you then sir .

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sometimes operational expediency has to trump creature comforts. Until there are no restrictions on the operation of 197s (things like overnight servicing at Canton, and route clearance west of Cardiff) then you will see 150s on diagrams that can't be worked in full by 197s.

For sure, I’m not saying it’s unacceptable or unreasonable, just very unpleasant to see from a passenger perspective. Just like rain, you know it can’t be helped but it’s still a downer to see!

 

[Bob Price]

For info Jen on the Move and Geoff Marshall both have videos on the Conway Valley line. Look them up on YouTube if you don't already follow them.

 

[sd0733]

197049 is now accepted into service. 197101 and 106 should be the next 2 to be accepted.

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

 

[JakeMurphy]

047 has entered service today

 

[SuperLuke2334]

197049 is now accepted into service. 197101 and 106 should be the next 2 to be accepted.

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

Presumably this means 197s can now stable in Canton?

 

[Jez]

197049 is now accepted into service. 197101 and 106 should be the next 2 to be accepted.

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

Excellent news. I sense a trip to Manchester soon on a 197. Although it will be a pain to have to change trains at Cardiff but oh well!

 

[sd0733]

Presumably this means 197s can now stable in Canton?

Not sure on that one. There could be a diagram put together that starts and finishes in Crewe/Chester so doesn't necessarily show it

 

[GWVillager]

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

Oh wow, already? Are they not going to wait for the sets with first class to be delivered?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Oh wow, already? Are they not going to wait for the sets with first class to be delivered?

Fairly sure they were going to start without it anyway, they are towards the end of the order as it is.

 

[Bob Price]

A pair of 197's has been carrying out test runs between Crewe and Manchester today. A lot of 197's around Crewe today, the 10.00 service to Llandudno was 2 x 197/0's, 2 x 197/1's on the north coast test runs plus the usual Chester Crewe shuttles.

 

[sd0733]

Oh wow, already? Are they not going to wait for the sets with first class to be delivered?

I dont believe that was ever the plan. None of the first class sets are anywhere near acceptance stage tet so theres not much point waiting, they're needed out in service and it's not as if the units they're replacing have first class anyway.

A pair of 197's has been carrying out test runs between Crewe and Manchester today.

Some final PIS tests to check everything works as it should before entry into service.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Manchester-Cardiff workings are expected to start 14th August potentially with a short term diagram split at Cardiff for now until they're signed off further west.

Do we know how many per day? Thanks so much for the update.

 

[sd0733]

Do we know how many per day? Thanks so much for the update.

AFAIK it'll just be one diagram to start with, which, as long as today's PIS tests are successful will be a 4 car, if they're not successful it'll be a 2/3 car.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

AFAIK it'll just be one diagram to start with, which, as long as today's PIS tests are successful will be a 4 car, if they're not successful it'll be a 2/3 car.

Makes sense. Thanks so much for keeping us updated.