Nottingham...in relative isolation

[norbitonflyer]

The paucity of services from Nottingham also affects Lincoln, as most of its connections to the rest of the Midlands rely on changes at Nottingham, and therefore often another change as well. Indeed, a friend travelling between Oxford and Lincoln found they were advised to change at Sheffield, which is a very circuitous route (especially as the line between Sheffield and Lincoln makes a wide loop to the north to cross the Trent at Gainsborough)

At least there is now, at last, a decent service to London

 

[ChrisC]

The paucity of services from Nottingham also affects Lincoln, as most of its connections to the rest of the Midlands rely on changes at Nottingham, and therefore often another change as well. Indeed, a friend travelling between Oxford and Lincoln found they were advised to change at Sheffield, which is a very circuitous route (especially as the line between Sheffield and Lincoln makes a wide loop to the north to cross the Trent at Gainsborough)

At least there is now, at last, a decent service to London

Before the days of Central Trains there had always traditionally been an hourly train running Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Stoke-Crewe. I certainly used it regularly during the the late 1970’s to travel to college in Derby from Lowdham. Central Trains introduced a Manchester Airport to Skegness train instead of this and most trains from Lincoln then began to run towards Leicester rather than Derby and Crewe. Eventually even Nottingham lost its through trains to Crewe.

Fortunately Nottingham has recently had its service to Crewe reintroduced and passenger numbers are continuing to rise. This train runs from Crewe to Nottingham before continuing as the stopping train to Newark Castle. Lincoln would probably be far better served if the Newark Castle stopper went to and from Leicester and the fast train between Lincoln and Nottingham ran through to Derby and Crewe. Many journey opportunities from Nottingham, with just one change of train at Crewe have been restored, but Lincoln would also benefit in the same way with connections at both Derby and Crewe. The current though running to Leicester stopping at all stations between Nottingham and Leicester does not really help Lincoln passengers.

 

[edwin_m]

Before the days of Central Trains there had always traditionally been an hourly train running Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Stoke-Crewe. I certainly used it regularly during the the late 1970’s to travel to college in Derby from Lowdham. Central Trains introduced a Manchester Airport to Skegness train instead of this and most trains from Lincoln then began to run towards Leicester rather than Derby and Crewe. Eventually even Nottingham lost its through trains to Crewe.

Fortunately Nottingham has recently had its service to Crewe reintroduced and passenger numbers are continuing to rise. This train runs from Crewe to Nottingham before continuing as the stopping train to Newark Castle. Lincoln would probably be far better served if the Newark Castle stopper went to and from Leicester and the fast train between Lincoln and Nottingham ran through to Derby and Crewe. Many journey opportunities from Nottingham, with just one change of train at Crewe have been restored, but Lincoln would also benefit in the same way with connections at both Derby and Crewe. The current though running to Leicester stopping at all stations between Nottingham and Leicester does not really help Lincoln passengers.

I haven't worked it through but I'm guessing the combination of workings east and west of Nottingham is mostly to do with pathing and getting economical use of units without excessive layovers. I imagine few people stay on any of them through Nottingham.

Having said that, the best one to run through to Lincoln would probably be the Birmingham, but different TOC and all that.

 

[35B]

Before the days of Central Trains there had always traditionally been an hourly train running Lincoln-Nottingham-Derby-Stoke-Crewe. I certainly used it regularly during the the late 1970’s to travel to college in Derby from Lowdham. Central Trains introduced a Manchester Airport to Skegness train instead of this and most trains from Lincoln then began to run towards Leicester rather than Derby and Crewe. Eventually even Nottingham lost its through trains to Crewe.

Fortunately Nottingham has recently had its service to Crewe reintroduced and passenger numbers are continuing to rise. This train runs from Crewe to Nottingham before continuing as the stopping train to Newark Castle. Lincoln would probably be far better served if the Newark Castle stopper went to and from Leicester and the fast train between Lincoln and Nottingham ran through to Derby and Crewe. Many journey opportunities from Nottingham, with just one change of train at Crewe have been restored, but Lincoln would also benefit in the same way with connections at both Derby and Crewe. The current though running to Leicester stopping at all stations between Nottingham and Leicester does not really help Lincoln passengers.

As I recall, a lot of these changes were about unit utilisation and service reliability. Daisy chaining the Skegness service with the Uttoxeter line, especially with trains extended onward to Manchester Airport, or Lincoln services through Birmingham to Shrewsbury, created additional but very slow journey opportunities, but also maximising the risk of knock-on disruption.

 

[ChrisC]

As I recall, a lot of these changes were about unit utilisation and service reliability. Daisy chaining the Skegness service with the Uttoxeter line, especially with trains extended onward to Manchester Airport, or Lincoln services through Birmingham to Shrewsbury, created additional but very slow journey opportunities, but also maximising the risk of knock-on disruption.

The very slow and long journey opportunities like Skegness to Manchester Airport and Lincoln to Shrewsbury mainly came about at the beginning of Central Trains days. The Lincoln to Crewe trains were well before that time and certainly ran right through the 1960’s and 1970’s. When I used them during the 1970’s they were usually operated by the very comfortable Swindon 3 car Class 120 DMUs.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The paucity of services from Nottingham also affects Lincoln, as most of its connections to the rest of the Midlands rely on changes at Nottingham, and therefore often another change as well. Indeed, a friend travelling between Oxford and Lincoln found they were advised to change at Sheffield, which is a very circuitous route (especially as the line between Sheffield and Lincoln makes a wide loop to the north to cross the Trent at Gainsborough)

I don't think many posters have complained about any 'paucity' of services serving Nottingham, it's more the quality of services, or more specifically, the relative slowness and often short-forming of trains serving Nottingham - with the possible exception of St Pancras trains (which are not THAT fast either).

What is most definitely missing (as noted above) is a high-quality, fast direct service to Leeds, York, Teeside, Tyneside and Edinburgh.

Birmingham, Gloucester-Cheltenham, Newport Cardiff is so-so.

Manchester, Liverpool is rather slow.

A re-introduction of a Coventry, albeit a relatively slow service, would still be welcome, I'm sure.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think many posters have complained about any 'paucity' of services serving Nottingham, it's more the quality of services, or more specifically, the relative slowness and often short-forming of trains serving Nottingham - with the possible exception of St Pancras trains (which are not THAT fast either).

What is most definitely missing (as noted above) is a high-quality, fast direct service to Leeds, York, Teeside, Tyneside and Edinburgh.

Birmingham, Gloucester-Cheltenham, Newport Cardiff is so-so.

Manchester, Liverpool is rather slow.

A re-introduction of a Coventry, albeit a relatively slow service, would still be welcome, I'm sure.

A very good summary I would say @70014IronDuke !

 

[duffield]

...

Fortunately Nottingham has recently had its service to Crewe reintroduced and passenger numbers are continuing to rise. This train runs from Crewe to Nottingham before continuing as the stopping train to Newark Castle. Lincoln would probably be far better served if the Newark Castle stopper went to and from Leicester and the fast train between Lincoln and Nottingham ran through to Derby and Crewe. Many journey opportunities from Nottingham, with just one change of train at Crewe have been restored, but Lincoln would also benefit in the same way with connections at both Derby and Crewe. The current though running to Leicester stopping at all stations between Nottingham and Leicester does not really help Lincoln passengers.

Yes, I only recently realised that the quickest way to get to Blackpool from Nottingham is now (usually) via Crewe rather than Manchester. If you get the 0817 it's even under 3 hours!

And we've got our through trains to Matlock back in full now (the connections were lousy changing at Derby).

Once we've got our 2TPH to Birmingham back in December I'll feel we're properly connected again.

 

[hux385]

Nottingham Victoria was a far better located station within the city and definitely had better connections to places in the North. Midland does have better connections to Leicester, Birmingham and London, which is probably why it was retained instead of Victoria.

Unfortunately, the problem with poor connections northwards still exists, with the Robin Hood/Erewash Valley lines being fairly low speed. The flat junction and lack of connections at Newark really don't help either.

With the HS2 Eastern leg planned to connect in at East Midlands Parkway, Nottingham should gain even better connections to Birmingham. However, the problem with connections towards the North will still be an issue. I can't help but thinking that Victoria would have been a better station to keep in the long run. The Great Central line fits nicely into the MML at Loughborough, and imagine if HS2 could also have served Victoria from the south. Think of all the lovely North-South connections we could have had!

Anyway... back to reality

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham Victoria was a far better located station within the city and definitely had better connections to places in the North. Midland does have better connections to Leicester, Birmingham and London, which is probably why it was retained instead of Victoria.

Unfortunately, the problem with poor connections northwards still exists, with the Robin Hood/Erewash Valley lines being fairly low speed. The flat junction and lack of connections at Newark really don't help either.

With the HS2 Eastern leg planned to connect in at East Midlands Parkway, Nottingham should gain even better connections to Birmingham. However, the problem with connections towards the North will still be an issue. I can't help but thinking that Victoria would have been a better station to keep in the long run. The Great Central line fits nicely into the MML at Loughborough, and imagine if HS2 could also have served Victoria from the south. Think of all the lovely North-South connections we could have had!

Anyway... back to reality

Nottingham to Leicester and London could have had a similar service via the GC as via the Midland if the former had been developed. However, closure of the Midland would have been detrimental to other services, particularly southwards from Derby as well as Nottingham-Birmingham as mentioned. So it probably wasn't possible to close the Midland but it was to close the GC.

An enhanced route from Nottingham to Newark is one option for providing HS2 service to Yorkshire and beyond, and wouldn't have been possible via Victoria. But nothing likely to happen in the foreseeable future.

 

[annlodge12]

This is something I noticed when I was at University at Nottingham. I suspect it had a lot to do with the Midland Railway choosing to route their mainline through Derby in the mid 19th central leaving Nottingham at the end of spur line.

Perhaps during this time Nottingham was less important economically then Derby.

This could explain why, even at present day, the Midland mainline services to London do not run from Nottingham but instead terminate in Derby. All other East Midlands cities are serviced directly by their mainline railway stations while Nottingham is left with a stopper service.

It's really quite remarkable how the decisions of the past can still have an effect today and it begs the question, will this remain the case in the future? Will Nottingham ever be serviced directly by the Midland mainline or will they continue to terminate at Derby? Only time will tell.

 

[ainsworth74]

This could explain why, even at present day, the Midland mainline services to London do not run from Nottingham but instead terminate in Derby. All other East Midlands cities are serviced directly by their mainline railway stations while Nottingham is left with a stopper service.

It's really quite remarkable how the decisions of the past can still have an effect today and it begs the question, will this remain the case in the future? Will Nottingham ever be serviced directly by the Midland mainline or will they continue to terminate at Derby? Only time will tell.

Nottingham has direct services to London? Two every hour in fact! Are you perhaps confused with another service group?

 

[edwin_m]

This could explain why, even at present day, the Midland mainline services to London do not run from Nottingham but instead terminate in Derby. All other East Midlands cities are serviced directly by their mainline railway stations while Nottingham is left with a stopper service.

It's really quite remarkable how the decisions of the past can still have an effect today and it begs the question, will this remain the case in the future? Will Nottingham ever be serviced directly by the Midland mainline or will they continue to terminate at Derby? Only time will tell.

Nottingham has direct services to London? Two every hour in fact! Are you perhaps confused with another service group?

Very few of them terminate at Derby these days - there was one an hour on weekday daytimes until a few years ago when it was extended to Sheffield. It tends to get cut back to Derby when engineering diversions are in force and of course with the depot being in Derby many first trains of the day start there and last trains of the day finish there.

However the point stands that the two faster trains per hour out of St Pancras are first stop Leicester then via Derby to Sheffield. The two Nottingham trains also call at Kettering and Market Harborough, which has the advantage that places such as Luton Airport can be reached from Nottingham with only one change. I think this is partly to balance the passenger loads, as Nottingham tends to generate fewer passenger than Derby and Sheffield combined. One reason is that many in Nottingham drive to Grantham instead for the faster London service.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Very few of them terminate at Derby these days - there was one an hour on weekday daytimes until a few years ago when it was extended to Sheffield. It tends to get cut back to Derby when engineering diversions are in force and of course with the depot being in Derby many first trains of the day start there and last trains of the day finish there.

However the point stands that the two faster trains per hour out of St Pancras are first stop Leicester then via Derby to Sheffield. The two Nottingham trains also call at Kettering and Market Harborough, which has the advantage that places such as Luton Airport can be reached from Nottingham with only one change. I think this is partly to balance the passenger loads, as Nottingham tends to generate fewer passenger than Derby and Sheffield combined. One reason is that many in Nottingham drive to Grantham instead for the faster London service.

A down side to the service, since the Corby trains were introduced, is that passengers from Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough must, as you say, change to the Inter City services at Kettering but these are all Nottinghams. It means that passengers travelling to Derby or further North must change again at Leicester.' Anyone wishing to travel to North of Sheffield must change yet again there (Derby), to Cross Country. So Wellingborough to Leeds, for example, means 3 changes.

Any suggestion that the stop at Kettering should alternate between a Nottingham one and a Derby / Sheffield one will, I expect, be met with claims that 'it's impossible', 'can't be done', 'badly thought out idea' etc.

But by doing so, the Nottingham that is fast between there and Leicester could then run fast to St Pancras, giving Nottingham the same service (one stop, at Leicester, only) as Derby presently enjoys.

But the Midland Main Line, for years, has been managed from Derby...

 

[edwin_m]

A down side to the service, since the Corby trains were introduced, is that passengers from Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough must, as you say, change to the Inter City services at Kettering but these are all Nottinghams. It means that passengers travelling to Derby or further North must change again at Leicester.' Anyone wishing to travel to North of Sheffield must change yet again there (Derby), to Cross Country. So Wellingborough to Leeds, for example, means 3 changes.

Any suggestion that the stop at Kettering should alternate between a Nottingham one and a Derby / Sheffield one will, I expect, be met with claims that 'it's impossible', 'can't be done', 'badly thought out idea' etc.

But by doing so, the Nottingham that is fast between there and Leicester could then run fast to St Pancras, giving Nottingham the same service (one stop, at Leicester, only) as Derby presently enjoys.

But the Midland Main Line, for years, has been managed from Derby...

That was sort of what it did before the most recent timetable recast, with a "fast" and a "slow" to both Nottingham and Derby/Sheffield. One problem was the uneven intervals between stops at the stations south of Leicester. These stations now have an even 30min interval and the connections at Kettering repeat every 30min too. So while I would prefer one of the Nottingham-London trains to have kept the stop at Luton Airport Parkway, at least the effective frequency for that journey has now doubled (and similarly for the journeys from Sheffield or Derby which go from one change to two).

Wellingborough to Leeds can be done every hour with two changes, at Kettering and Nottingham, but it's probably quicker via Derby.

 

[Merle Haggard]

That was sort of what it did before the most recent timetable recast, with a "fast" and a "slow" to both Nottingham and Derby/Sheffield. One problem was the uneven intervals between stops at the stations south of Leicester. These stations now have an even 30min interval and the connections at Kettering repeat every 30min too. So while I would prefer one of the Nottingham-London trains to have kept the stop at Luton Airport Parkway, at least the effective frequency for that journey has now doubled (and similarly for the journeys from Sheffield or Derby which go from one change to two).

Wellingborough to Leeds can be done every hour with two changes, at Kettering and Nottingham, but it's probably quicker via Derby.

Thanks; and with the not unknown feature of railway timetabling the even interval service at Kettering had given a very un-even one elsewhere - certainly at East Midlands Parkway and I think, Loughborough.

The connections Northbound from Wellingborough to Derby etc always work well in my experience (partly because it's impossible for your forward connection to overtake en route except in the limited window between Kettering South Junction and the station!) but Southbound it seems that up Corby trains are not held at Kettering to await even a slightly late running up Nottingham ( once, I only made the connection because I knew which door to use and may have illegally ran - quite a few were left behind). You may say that this would delay the up Corby; but that train has then to wait at Wellingborough on the slow to cross out to follow the next Sheffield on the up fast, and usually if the Nottingham is late, so is the Sheffield behind it. Corby trains often hang around at Wellingborough waiting forward path, maybe a slightly later departure from the North would not affect times to the South.

I did try via Nottingham once (to Leeds), but Northern had turned the inwards back at Sheffield, as they do all over.

 

[hux385]

I think what would have worked best for Nottingham would have been to have Victoria as the principal station and also having retained the link to Derby Friargate. Obviously this is now impossible.

For now, I would prefer to see MML Nottingham and Sheffield trains extended north to Bradford/Leeds/Doncaster since these could all do with better connections to the Midlands.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think what would have worked best for Nottingham would have been to have Victoria as the principal station and also having retained the link to Derby Friargate. Obviously this is now impossible.

Even better, the Friargate route continued to Burton, giving Cross- Country connections. But, as you say, a completely lost cause.

 

[Mugby]

I believe that in the 1960s Nottingham City Council was actively supporting and encouraging the closure of Victoria Station because they wanted a shopping centre.

 

[Western Sunset]

The ER in the late 50s/early 60s had through trains/carriages between Sheff and KX via Retford. They never provided a similar service between Nottm and KX via Grantham.
There were plans to electrify the Nottm (Vic) to Grantham line in the much earlier plans for electrifying the ECML to York; that might well have provided Nottm with fast direct trains to KX.

 

[WesternLancer]

I believe that in the 1960s Nottingham City Council was actively supporting and encouraging the closure of Victoria Station because they wanted a shopping centre.

I can well imagine this. City Council is sometimes quite 'inward looking' even today...

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

But the Midland Main Line, for years, has been managed from Derby...

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

If the track geography had allowed for exactly the same schedules between Leicester and Sheffield, I'm sure the Nottingham route would be favoured for the Sheffield expresses, certainlly historically, Nottingham being the more populous and prestigious city.

But what with the track layout needing reversal and PSR issues on the Erewash, Derby wins out. Most especially with the operator's desire (or fascination?) to have one flagship express service scheduled service - rather than a better balancing of the two Sheffields, say 1 TPH stopping at EM Parkway and 1 stopping Loughboro' + Long Eaton.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don't think that has anything to do with it.

If the track geography had allowed for exactly the same schedules between Leicester and Sheffield, I'm sure the Nottingham route would be favoured for the Sheffield expresses, certainlly historically, Nottingham being the more populous and prestigious city.

But what with the track layout needing reversal and PSR issues on the Erewash, Derby wins out. Most especially with the operator's desire (or fascination?) to have one flagship express service scheduled service - rather than a better balancing of the two Sheffields, say 1 TPH stopping at EM Parkway and 1 stopping Loughboro' + Long Eaton.

There does seem to be a certain Derby-centric air about timetabling on the MML nowadays, though.

For example, on Sundays, he first down train from Derby (originating there) is 07.30. Contrast that with the first down one from Northamptonshire, it's the 10.10 (ish) from Wellingborough to Nottingham. The timetable seems to be based on everything starting at Derby - this train departs St P. after the arrival of the first Up one.

By contrast, on the often-maligned LNwR, the first down service from Northampton is 0642.

That's the sort of thing I had in mind. The first train of the day from London reaches Nottingham half an hour before mid-day. This is of course only my opinion but it seems illogical to me that there's a demand for an early Sunday down train from Derby but not until about 2 hours later for one from London.

But I'm sure someone will shoot me down in flames with operational logic....

 

[Falcon1200]

I think what would have worked best for Nottingham would have been to have Victoria as the principal station and also having retained the link to Derby Friargate.

But given that Derby and Nottingham Midland stations would have been retained as well, that would mean two stations in each city, serving different routes; Inefficient and inconvenient for all concerned.

 

[DDB]

There does seem to be a certain Derby-centric air about timetabling on the MML nowadays, though.

For example, on Sundays, he first down train from Derby (originating there) is 07.30. Contrast that with the first down one from Northamptonshire, it's the 10.10 (ish) from Wellingborough to Nottingham. The timetable seems to be based on everything starting at Derby - this train departs St P. after the arrival of the first Up one.

By contrast, on the often-maligned LNwR, the first down service from Northampton is 0642.

That's the sort of thing I had in mind. The first train of the day from London reaches Nottingham half an hour before mid-day. This is of course only my opinion but it seems illogical to me that there's a demand for an early Sunday down train from Derby but not until about 2 hours later for one from London.

But I'm sure someone will shoot me down in flames with operational logic....

The intercity depot is at Derby so the intercity services generally start and end their days there.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The intercity depot is at Derby so the intercity services generally start and end their days there.

And the LNwR EMU depot is at Northampton, but - for example - they somehow manage to start early morning down services from Euston (and up ones from New Street) some time before the arrival of the first train from Northampton...

 

[35B]

I think what would have worked best for Nottingham would have been to have Victoria as the principal station and also having retained the link to Derby Friargate. Obviously this is now impossible.

For now, I would prefer to see MML Nottingham and Sheffield trains extended north to Bradford/Leeds/Doncaster since these could all do with better connections to the Midlands.

I think you're confusing what would have worked best in terms of providing a city centre station, with what would have worked best given the railways that were actually built. It would be more apt to regret that the Midland built Nottingham station on the flat ground below the city, rather than doing as the GC did and driving through and across the local topography, but you then start getting into counterfactual questions about what should have been built.

Even better, the Friargate route continued to Burton, giving Cross- Country connections. But, as you say, a completely lost cause.

Derby Friargate was always on a byway, and the line towards Burton was always a minor route, paralleling the Midland route - which is why it closed as a passenger route as early as 1939. Now the coal and beer traffic it was built for have gone, it's hard to see what value it would have - certainly relative to the current connections available at Derby Midland.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Derby Friargate was always on a byway, and the line towards Burton was always a minor route, paralleling the Midland route - which is why it closed as a passenger route as early as 1939. Now the coal and beer traffic it was built for have gone, it's hard to see what value it would have - certainly relative to the current connections available at Derby Midland.

An example of where 'competition' between the (pre-grouping) railway companies resulted in building lines parallel to that of their competitors rather than looking for new markets. Notts. and Derbys. seemed to particularly suffer from this; I travelled on a rail tour that ran along the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension just before its closure and the parallel lines formerly belonging to the Midland and G.C. were generally visible from the train - I remember in particular one location (can't remember where) where there was a (small and basic) station on each of the three lines, all close together.


P.S. And the Friargate route included Bennerley Viaduct - now listed (?)

 

[RT4038]

There does seem to be a certain Derby-centric air about timetabling on the MML nowadays, though.

For example, on Sundays, he first down train from Derby (originating there) is 07.30. Contrast that with the first down one from Northamptonshire, it's the 10.10 (ish) from Wellingborough to Nottingham. The timetable seems to be based on everything starting at Derby - this train departs St P. after the arrival of the first Up one.

By contrast, on the often-maligned LNwR, the first down service from Northampton is 0642.

That's the sort of thing I had in mind. The first train of the day from London reaches Nottingham half an hour before mid-day. This is of course only my opinion but it seems illogical to me that there's a demand for an early Sunday down train from Derby but not until about 2 hours later for one from London.

But I'm sure someone will shoot me down in flames with operational logic....

I don't think you are right about Northampton on a Sunday? The first 'down' services are 09h06 to Birmingham/09h27 to Crewe, which is not that much different to Wellingborough.

 

[35B]

An example of where 'competition' between the (pre-grouping) railway companies resulted in building lines parallel to that of their competitors rather than looking for new markets. Notts. and Derbys. seemed to particularly suffer from this; I travelled on a rail tour that ran along the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension just before its closure and the parallel lines formerly belonging to the Midland and G.C. were generally visible from the train - I remember in particular one location (can't remember where) where there was a (small and basic) station on each of the three lines, all close together.


P.S. And the Friargate route included Bennerley Viaduct - now listed (?)

At which point it's worth looking closely at which markets they were trying to serve. And that answer lay underground - these were coal railways, that happened to carry passengers. Some of the later lines were built specifically because the colliery owners felt restricted by the company serving them, and wanted different outlets for their coal.