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Nottingham...in relative isolation

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Western Sunset

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The GN/LNER had a very competitive service with the MR/LMS between Nottm and Derby; and served the large town of Ilkeston too. Timewise, it was certainly on a par with the Midland route, despite a harder road that cut across the valleys, whereas the MR line followed the flat Derwent/Trent floodplain. Additionally, both Friargate and Victoria were better placed than Derby and Nottm Midland for the centre of the town/city.
 
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edwin_m

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The GN/LNER had a very competitive service with the MR/LMS between Nottm and Derby; and served the large town of Ilkeston too. Timewise, it was certainly on a par with the Midland route, despite a harder road that cut across the valleys, whereas the MR line followed the flat Derwent/Trent floodplain. Additionally, both Friargate and Victoria were better placed than Derby and Nottm Midland for the centre of the town/city.
This was only true after Victoria and the line northwards was built, as the original route started eastwards out of Nottingham then had to do a big loop round the north side of the city. But there was very little opportunity to continue beyond Derby, only really towards Stoke and the indirect connection to Burton mentioned above. Also, the Midland provided a far better route between Sheffield and Derby than anything that could have been developed based on GC/GN routes.

Once it was decided to remove duplicate routes, the answer was only ever going to be to retain most of the Midland network and close most of the GC/GN except a couple of bits that needed to be kept and could be linked to nearby Midland lines (Netherfield and Loughborough). And in fact Nottingham probably didn't lose out too much from that decision. The route towards Birmingham was always better (or at least less bad) by the Midland and for most other destinations journey times were pretty similar. The main loss for Nottingham was no longer being on a through trunk route (assuming the GC could ever have been so described), meaning the loss of journey opportunities possible by using trains passing through on their way somewhere else.
 

Western Sunset

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I think there was no doubt that the Midland lines around Derby/Nottm would prevail over the GN/GC ones. Friargate was essentially (passenger-wise) on a dead-end, and the sudden closure of the "Back Line" due to the poor condition of Mapperley Tunnel, put paid to any form of long-term future for Colwick Yard and its associated freight flows.
 

hux385

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I'm not suggesting that the Midland route should have gone completely, I just think a better balance of more GC and less Midland would have been good.
The main loss for Nottingham was no longer being on a through trunk route (assuming the GC could ever have been so described), meaning the loss of journey opportunities possible by using trains passing through on their way somewhere else.
Perhaps the GC was never a major trunk route, but if carefully amalgamated into the Midland at, say, Loughborough and Chesterfield, then Nottingham could have some fantastic through services, which is arguably one of the biggest things it misses out on to this day.

Personally, I would have retained....
MML from Loughborough-Derby-Chesterfield
GCR from Loughborough-Nottingham Vic-Chesterfield
GN from Bulwell-Ilkeston-Derby (with an aim to route this into Derby Midland for the best integration)
 

Western Sunset

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Engineering-wise, it would have been quite straightforward for BR to have built a spur from the ex-LMS at St Mary's Jn, (Derby) up to the ex-LNER Friargate line. This would've enabled BR to close Friargate station (and the associated goods facilities), concentrating them on the former LMS lines. The whole line between this new spur could have closed to Eggington Jn with no loss of connectivity to other routes at all. Rather the opposite. Also, it would've saved maintenance of Mickleover Tunnel and a bridge over the River Derwent.

But BR built hardly any spurs to connect former routes anywhere in the country. Obviously capacity issues and £££ were stumbling blocks, but one has to feel that though Nationalisation produced a so-called unified system, in practice, places like Derby Midland and Derby Friargate were still a hundred miles apart. There seemed to be no proactive approach to unite the infrastructure in any meaningful way.

But I digress...
 

edwin_m

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I'm not suggesting that the Midland route should have gone completely, I just think a better balance of more GC and less Midland would have been good.

Perhaps the GC was never a major trunk route, but if carefully amalgamated into the Midland at, say, Loughborough and Chesterfield, then Nottingham could have some fantastic through services, which is arguably one of the biggest things it misses out on to this day.

Personally, I would have retained....
MML from Loughborough-Derby-Chesterfield
GCR from Loughborough-Nottingham Vic-Chesterfield
GN from Bulwell-Ilkeston-Derby (with an aim to route this into Derby Midland for the best integration)
Interesting thought. An alternative route from Nottingham to Derby would have avoided the congested Trent junction, and the one you suggest would come into Derby Midland from the north, avoiding reversal for the majority of trains continuing to Birmingham or Crewe. But it would have had the glaring disadvantage of two separate stations in Nottingham - it might have ended up with Victoria being closed anyway and passengers being directed to Arkwright Street, somewhat further from the centre than Midland.
Engineering-wise, it would have been quite straightforward for BR to have built a spur from the ex-LMS at St Mary's Jn, (Derby) up to the ex-LNER Friargate line. This would've enabled BR to close Friargate station (and the associated goods facilities), concentrating them on the former LMS lines. The whole line between this new spur could have closed to Eggington Jn with no loss of connectivity to other routes at all. Rather the opposite. Also, it would've saved maintenance of Mickleover Tunnel and a bridge over the River Derwent.

But BR built hardly any spurs to connect former routes anywhere in the country. Obviously capacity issues and £££ were stumbling blocks, but one has to feel that though Nationalisation produced a so-called unified system, in practice, places like Derby Midland and Derby Friargate were still a hundred miles apart. There seemed to be no proactive approach to unite the infrastructure in any meaningful way.

But I digress...
There were actually quite a few spurs built. I mentioned upthread the connection of the ex-GNR Grantham route into the ex-MR Lincoln route near Netherfield, strictly speaking a reinstatement of something that existed for a very short time when the Grantham line was first built. And there is the Midland to GC connection at Loughborough, although somewhat later, enabling freight trains to access Ruddington and East Leake from the south and allowing removal of the remaining section of GC from the tunnel south of Victoria to Ruddington. I recall Gerry Fiennes's book talked about his rationalisation of competing networks around Sheffield, building connections both ways at Aldwarke Junction and I think some others nearby as well.
 

Western Sunset

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There were actually quite a few spurs built. I mentioned upthread the connection of the ex-GNR Grantham route into the ex-MR Lincoln route near Netherfield, strictly speaking a reinstatement of something that existed for a very short time when the Grantham line was first built. And there is the Midland to GC connection at Loughborough, although somewhat later, enabling freight trains to access Ruddington and East Leake from the south and allowing removal of the remaining section of GC from the tunnel south of Victoria to Ruddington. I recall Gerry Fiennes's book talked about his rationalisation of competing networks around Sheffield, building connections both ways at Aldwarke Junction and I think some others nearby as well.
Yep, but that took until 1965 for the former and the early 70s for the latter. There was an argument that the ex-GN line into Nottm from Netherfield was actually a better route, avoiding a number of level crossings.
 

duffield

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An example of where 'competition' between the (pre-grouping) railway companies resulted in building lines parallel to that of their competitors rather than looking for new markets. Notts. and Derbys. seemed to particularly suffer from this; I travelled on a rail tour that ran along the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension just before its closure and the parallel lines formerly belonging to the Midland and G.C. were generally visible from the train - I remember in particular one location (can't remember where) where there was a (small and basic) station on each of the three lines, all close together.


P.S. And the Friargate route included Bennerley Viaduct - now listed (?)
Bennerley viaduct has been restored and is now open to the public, with access at both ends (from the Erewash Canal at the west end and the semi-derelict Nottingham canal at the East end). Well worth a visit, spectacular views, makes a nice circular walk from Ilkeston station.
 

Merle Haggard

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I don't think you are right about Northampton on a Sunday? The first 'down' services are 09h06 to Birmingham/09h27 to Crewe, which is not that much different to Wellingborough.
Sorry for the delay, it wasn't because I was trying to weasel out of it!

It's all a bit confusing to me as I can't find my original post (which may have mistakenly given 06.42 as the time of the first Northampton - New Street train on Sundays) or the one it was a reply to; but the intention was to point out that the first service from New Street to Northampton is around 06.42 on Sundays, and a similarly early departure from Euston, the point being that these were well before the arrival of the first train from Northampton to each.

The thrust of the proposition was a response to the suggestion that, because the maintenance depot is at a particular location, Derby, then the first services will be outward from there with the inevitable result that the return services (from outer termini) can't run until the first outward service has reached there. My proposition was that the first trains from New St and Euston leave before the first trains arrive from Northampton (the location of the maintenance depot for LNw, like Derby is for EMR), by stabling trains at the outer ends of the network rather than all returning to depot.

But possibly you're referring to another line of thought. It's only me that's confused , I know...
 

Western Sunset

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I'm sure, back in the day, there were ECS workings from Etches Park (Derby) to Nottm, to start London services from the latter. In the other direction I recall at least one late evening service that ran St Pan - Nottm (rev) - Derby.
 

DDB

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I'm sure, back in the day, there were ECS workings from Etches Park (Derby) to Nottm, to start London services from the latter. In the other direction I recall at least one late evening service that ran St Pan - Nottm (rev) - Derby.
Pretty sure that is all still the case.
 

Harvester

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I'm sure, back in the day, there were ECS workings from Etches Park (Derby) to Nottm, to start London services from the latter. In the other direction I recall at least one late evening service that ran St Pan - Nottm (rev) - Derby.
In 2020 one of Etches Park‘s two remaining HST diagrams was a Nottingham to St Pancras and return working, starting and ending at Nottingham. ECS both ways between Derby and Nottingham.
 

norbitonflyer

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There were actually quite a few spurs built. I mentioned upthread the connection of the ex-GNR Grantham route into the ex-MR Lincoln route near Netherfield, And there is the Midland to GC connection at Loughborough,
And the connection at Newark between the GN and Midland lines, adjacent to the flat crossing, allowing trains from Lincoln and Grimsby to reach Northgate. This short spur allowed closure of the Lincoln to Grantham line in 1966, followed by the East Lincolnshire main line (Grimsby - Boston - Peterborough) in 1970.
 

Falcon1200

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But BR built hardly any spurs to connect former routes anywhere in the country.

There were actually quite a few spurs built.

Indeed. In the Sheffield area, the various connections to allow trains from both Midland and Great Central routes to serve Tinsley Yard, including the magnificent junctions at Aldwarke, now sadly much reduced. In Scotland the connections at Bowling to allow use of the Caledonian line to Dumbarton instead of the North British route, at Shields Junction in Glasgow so that trains could be diverted from St Enoch to Central, and in Edinburgh at Haymarket for Caledonian line trains to access Waverley.
 

Merle Haggard

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One of the new connections built (early 1966, I think) connected the ex M.R. and ex G.N. routes East of Nottingham - from memory, connections faced in each direction with a diamond in the middle. It received a lot of publicity at the time as being a great innovation. Same with Mickle Trafford, about the same time and a similar layout, connected the former Birkenhead Joint and C.L.C. lines east of Chester; and also the spur connection at Hazel Grove so that trains on the former M.R. route could be diverted into Piccadilly. That last is interestingly steep, if that can be done there's hope for a connection between the West Coast and the Chester - Warrington line to allow the latter to be closed to Walton Junction...

Getting back to Nottingham, I think that there were some connections put in between the maze of lines between Nottingham / Mansfield / Shirebrrok at about the same time as the one near Colwick, probably all part of the same scheme.. The Robin Hood line happily used trackbeds from different pre-group companies, not sure if it involved many 'spurs' (connecting lines) the route just veered of to another former alignment.


I'm not sure that these were Beeching-connected (I think that's implied in another thread) but it did take a long time from when all the routes concerned were under common ownership for them to be done.
 

Harvester

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Pretty sure that is all still the case.
By pure chance I was held at Attenborough level crossing (between Derby and Nottingham) this morning, and two 222s coupled together and both apparently empty, went by heading towards Nottingham!
 

Merle Haggard

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Pretty sure that is all still the case.

And the result is that - unlike (I think) all other Inter City routes to London - which end of a train is 1st and which end is cycles is random (if a 222 is at E.P. with the 1st to the West and it goes to Derby, then London, the 1st will be at the London end but if it goes to Nottingham and then London the 1st will be at the country end).
But, to be fair, the platform displays/announcements do show which end.
 

ChrisC

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An example of where 'competition' between the (pre-grouping) railway companies resulted in building lines parallel to that of their competitors rather than looking for new markets. Notts. and Derbys. seemed to particularly suffer from this; I travelled on a rail tour that ran along the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension just before its closure and the parallel lines formerly belonging to the Midland and G.C. were generally visible from the train - I remember in particular one location (can't remember where) where there was a (small and basic) station on each of the three lines, all close together.
That brings back some memories the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension. I spent the the first 13 years of my life living in a house right at the side of that line. We moved out in 1970, just a few years after it closed. The railway was so much part of my childhood living so close. We even had the fence at the back of the house set alight by sparks from steam engines on more than one occasion. My dad made me a large wooden swing in the garden right next to the track. I saw a film a few years ago, probably taken from the rail tour you mention, and it was great to see my swing in the film.

The section from Linby to Newstead is now used as a footpath/ cycle trail and there’s a short stretch used as a trail near Bestwood. There‘s very little evidence in the Hucknall area that the line ever existed.
 

duffield

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That brings back some memories the G.N. Leen Valley / Leen Valley Extension. I spent the the first 13 years of my life living in a house right at the side of that line. We moved out in 1970, just a few years after it closed. The railway was so much part of my childhood living so close. We even had the fence at the back of the house set alight by sparks from steam engines on more than one occasion. My dad made me a large wooden swing in the garden right next to the track. I saw a film a few years ago, probably taken from the rail tour you mention, and it was great to see my swing in the film.

The section from Linby to Newstead is now used as a footpath/ cycle trail and there’s a short stretch used as a trail near Bestwood. There‘s very little evidence in the Hucknall area that the line ever existed.

I walked that footpath from Newstead to Linby for the first time just a few days ago!

I dug out my 1988 rail atlas when I got back, it shows Linby as operational of course, but on a short loop from what is now the Robin Hood line rather than on its original line.
 
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