CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[SuperLuke2334]

When are they due to be rolled out full time to the route? Having used 153s over the last month these will be extremely welcome!

From now onwards. Waiting to be cleared for passenger use west of Cardiff then introduction will be more.

 

[Fletcj10]

From now onwards. Waiting to be cleared for passenger use west of Cardiff then introduction will be more.

Fantastic news! Do we know maybe what the carriage number lengths will be like will it be 2 cars or 3 cars? as it can get quite busy on there

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Fantastic news! Do we know maybe what the carriage number lengths will be like will it be 2 cars or 3 cars? as it can get quite busy on there

The plan is 5 car at least between Cardiff and Manchester, potentially even to Swansea. I think beyond there it is the 2 car unit that would continue.

 

[Fletcj10]

The plan is 5 car at least between Cardiff and Manchester, potentially even to Swansea. I think beyond there it is the 2 car unit that would continue.

Oh right so maybe a 3 car & 2 car with a split at either Cardiff or Swansea? Either way that will be Better then what they have now

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Oh right so maybe a 3 car & 2 car with a split at either Cardiff or Swansea? Either way that will be Better then what they have now

Yes it'll be 3+2, the 3 car planned to have a 16-seat section of First Class.

 

[Topological]

Oh right so maybe a 3 car & 2 car with a split at either Cardiff or Swansea? Either way that will be Better then what they have now

The original plan was Swansea for the split/join

A 2 car 197 would not be an improvement over the 175/1 that ran many of the trains between Swansea and Manchester prior to the start of all of this mess on the Marches.

What we have now is like taking away pullman dining waiting a while with just a free bottle of water then saying how great it will be when they give you a pack of space invaders.

 

[Jez]

When are they due to be rolled out full time to the route? Having used 153s over the last month these will be extremely welcome!

September apparently but it may not be every service even then.

 

[RailWonderer]

Yes it'll be 3+2, the 3 car planned to have a 16-seat section of First Class.

Only some of those 3 cars will have first class and I’d bet good money on half of them on the north south routes not even having first and some of the shuttles or branches will end up with a 3 car unit with declassified first.

 

[sd0733]

September apparently but it may not be every service even then.

It's September in 2 weeks, I'm afraid there's no maybe about it, there Will more than likely be a couple of extra diagrams but there definitely won't be anything close to a full service of 197s on that route next month.

 

[Krokodil]

September might be in two weeks but the winter timetable doesn't start at the beginning of the month.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes it'll be 3+2, the 3 car planned to have a 16-seat section of First Class.

Only some of those 3 cars will have first class and I’d bet good money on half of them on the north south routes not even having first and some of the shuttles or branches will end up with a 3 car unit with declassified first.

According to the specification tables for the KeolisAmey franchise, the lease on the 14 units with first class wasn't planned to start until 31/12/2024. At least 7 of them (and possibly all 14) were always planned to enter service with first declassified before that date.

At the time (when there were only 3 mark 4 sets in the plan) I guestimated that Swansea-Manchester would require 9 or 10 five-car class 197 diagrams. To my knowledge there has never been an announcement of how many of the 14 units would be available for service each day. 64.29% availablity (9 out of 14) or 71.43% (10 out of 14) seems a bit pessimistic, but I don't think there has been announcement of what the remaining first class units would be doing either. In any case, there was clearly not enough units with first class to run all the Cardiff-Holyhead and proposed Cardiff-Liverpool workings so there were always going to be some north-south services without first.

 

[sd0733]

September might be in two weeks but the winter timetable doesn't start at the beginning of the month.

I know, it's 5 weeks or so until the timetable change but there's still not going to be a full 197 service from Cardiff to Manchester even by the end, resourcing for that just isn't there that soon.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Realtime Trains | 4G97 0623 Crewe Bas Hall S.S.M. to Donnington Rft | 18/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 4G97 0623 departure from Crewe Bas Hall S.S.M. to Donnington Rft on 18/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 6Q97 1054 Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) | 18/08/2023

Real-time train running information for 6Q97 1054 departure from Donnington Rft to Crewe C.S. (L&Nwr Site) on 18/08/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

197 being picked up this morning.

 

[Bob Price]

197050 according to RailCam schedule with 47830 on the front. Just running round at Crewe.

 

[43055]

Had 197044 on the 'Chester shuttle' today. Full and standing on both services we used so a 3 car or one of the 5 175's at Chester could of been better. Overall a very nice train I thought with decent seats and legroom.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Had 197044 on the 'Chester shuttle' today. Full and standing on both services we used so a 3 car or one of the 5 175's at Chester could of been better. Overall a very nice train I thought with decent seats and legroom.

To be honest, no it absolutely would not have been better, unless you’d rather have short formed Cardiff or Manchester services instead - and especially today, Cardiffs are rammed due to the rugby.

 

[Krokodil]

one of the 5 175's at Chester could of been better

How many of those were serviceable?

 

[sd0733]

Had 197044 on the 'Chester shuttle' today. Full and standing on both services we used so a 3 car or one of the 5 175's at Chester could of been better. Overall a very nice train I thought with decent seats and legroom.

Most of those 175s aren't serviceable at the moment.
3 Car 197s are used when one Is available (there's only 3) but the shuttle really isn't helped by the lack of Avanti services these days

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well said. It’s so frustrating that when you do the job to the best of your ability for the greater good with the tools at your disposal that you then get hammered even though the alternative for you was to do nothing and have less services running with less capacity on those that do run.

I’ve often invited people to come over to planning when they fancy a pop but funnily enough never take the offer up. They never will because then they might find out what the reality actually is, a reason I hate this forum phrase ‘random unit generator’ like it’s done for fun. Ok then, we’ll cancel the train instead of subbing this 156 for a 150.

I generally find that those that like to criticise do not like to be on the receiving end of criticism from people like themselves. I always say, walk the walk first and see what we have to deal with before moaning at every verse end.

Irony is that while you succeed in keeping most of the plates spinning no one really sees how far wrong you avoid it going. Thankless task and all that. The devil in me says stand back and let those who decide the level of resources (upper management) you have at your disposal see what a tangle you unravel each day.

The same offices we work in

Planning is a role very few people want to do. It’s fraught with frustration and constantly changing plans, helping colleagues working 2 or 3 jobs in different parts of the department to keep ever changing plans in place. Not easy at all and it doesn’t always work out as we are only human.

The problem is that too many people on here don’t appreciate the work that goes in to providing a train plan that works with all the obstacles thrown in the way because they only see their side and nobody else’s (if you come on this forum it’s rare to not get an explanation of any issues, it’s down to those who don’t understand to try and actually understand instead of criticising). I am also a rail user and get frustrated when my commute goes wrong but would never criticise the staff, whether it be those on the frontline taking the flack or those of us in the offices taking the flack on forums like this. Would you like flack for doing your job if it goes wrong because the stars haven’t aligned today?

Where have I said “come and do a better job” or “come and do my job for me”?

If you read it right you’ll see I invite people to come and observe the job to understand the issues but people don’t want to (probably scared to see what we put up with on a day to day basis) so I will continue to defend the role of planning when it is criticised. I’ve observed other jobs that I’m not interested in doing to gain an understanding of it, where’s the harm in that?

In my view the railways are running too far stretched. But those right at the top (and beyond) don't want to see that.

Given the railways, passenger wise, run to a timetable you would think with the right resources it could run like clockwork. But one has to work with what one is given !.

I would be interested in seeing your role in the flesh - probably ask too many stupid questions though while watching a blur.

I think what's being forgotten here though Is that we aren't at work, we are posting in our own time giving information that people, in most cases otherwise wouldn't get.
I get both sides that there Is a lot of frustration at the moment with the way things are but unfortunately the fact is control have the issue of sending the wrong unit or cancelling the train, resources have the choice that they can cover a job with someone who doesn't sign one bit and do a unit swap or leave the whole job uncovered. There's many reasons why things happen, many not obvious to most people but often they can be claimed to be "excuses".
Whilst we are at work, in uniform then, yes, we are representing the company and get flack that's to be expected but whilst on here we are simply posters who are offering information and not here in a work capacity so it's not an entirely fair comparison.

Anyway, as this is way off topic I feel we should leave it here!!

Bringing it back to 197s! The first pair have now left Crewe on their way becoming the first to go beyond Crewe.

Yes people need to remember this is not a paid for service.

Last thing I have to say. I gave up giving info about the new Northern fleet tender a while back due to a poster who works for the same company as me essentially telling me I don’t know my own job and that they knew better and could basically plan better. Never took me up on the offer of a day shadowing me unsurprisingly so they could see the various aspects of planning for themselves to see if they could actually do it.

Now that I’ve been shown to be correct they aren’t commenting on the post and I haven’t commented either even though I could put a hell of a lot of speculation on there about the tender to bed. Some is quite close to what is happening, most of it is way off the mark. People are interested, I’ve got most of the answers but due to one posters previous attitude I ain’t enlightening anyone even though I know a lot more about the plans than probably anybody on here.

I think it’s time to stop giving helpful info out and just to let people do it through official channels instead and probably end up without the answers that they would probably otherwise get on here.

As you say, we do this in our own time, no longer feel it’s worth the effort of trying to help.

Please don't lose heart. There are many of us amateurs who appreciate your help and have a rough idea how challenging the role is.

I have been away for a while until last week then entertaining the Granddaughter who follows my interests. I have finally caught up trying to thoroughly read and wanted to show my appreciation.

I am looking forward to visiting the Granddaughter in Cardiff and us getting some 197s in. When will the Cardiff and valleys rover be a good idea for sampling a 197 ?. Probably to Bridgeend I suppose ?.

 

[43055]

To be honest, no it absolutely would not have been better, unless you’d rather have short formed Cardiff or Manchester services instead - and especially today, Cardiffs are rammed due to the rugby.

I was thinking more swapping with the 3 car 197 that was on the Chester to Liverpool's which looked rarther empty when it left Chester.

How many of those were serviceable?

Most of those 175s aren't serviceable at the moment.
3 Car 197s are used when one Is available (there's only 3) but the shuttle really isn't helped by the lack of Avanti services these days

There's me thinking the 175 situation was a bit better. Indeed Avanti didn't help matters today with the following 1045 service from Crewe being cancelled which probably added a few passengers on the 1021.

 

[childwallblues]

Most of those 175s aren't serviceable at the moment.
3 Car 197s are used when one Is available (there's only 3) but the shuttle really isn't helped by the lack of Avanti services these days

There are four -/1s in service 104/10/11/12. More often than not one is on the Liverpool service.

 

[Krokodil]

I was thinking more swapping with the 3 car 197 that was on the Chester to Liverpool's which looked rarther empty when it left Chester.

You can get away with a two for some of the day but you definitely need a three in the evening.

 

[Jez]

Noticed the 1330 Manchester to Tenby is 197019. Obviously that will require a unit swap at Cardiff!

 

[william.martin]

Noticed the 1330 Manchester to Tenby is 197019. Obviously that will require a unit swap at Cardiff!

Will the 197's have to go to Tenby eventually?

 

[Anonymous10]

Noticed the 1330 Manchester to Tenby is 197019. Obviously that will require a unit swap at Cardiff!

still a good use of resources given its a rush hour out of cardiff, means that they may be able to run it as 3 carriages from cardiff to at least swansea.

 

[sd0733]

Noticed the 1330 Manchester to Tenby is 197019. Obviously that will require a unit swap at Cardiff!

197044 also on the 1630 from Manchester, should be 197002 on the 1930 and 197021 on the 2030 so quite a collection up there this afternoon

 

[Kite159]

still a good use of resources given its a rush hour out of cardiff, means that they may be able to run it as 3 carriages from cardiff to at least swansea.

Or knowing TfW it will be a single 153 from Cardiff

Good the Kit Kat carriers (the 197s) are spreading their wings with runs to Manchester from Cardiff.

 

[Topological]

197044 also on the 1630 from Manchester, should be 197002 on the 1930 and 197021 on the 2030 so quite a collection up there this afternoon

This is definitely good progress. Though Manchester is still being sent units which are shorter than the 175/1 that provided many of the services in the better times.

Hopefully by the time the colleges go back (particularly Hereford) there will be more capacity on the Marches. I am always impressed by just how many use the train from Newport / Cwmbran / Pontypool and New Inn / Abergavenny or Church Stretton / Craven Arms / Ludlow / Leominster to go to Hereford. The summer is always a much happier time to take early trains

Is the 15:49 from Cardiff still the only double?

 

[sd0733]

Is the 15:49 from Cardiff still the only double?

It's the only one booked at all. The others are just covering.
Quite a few shortforms/substitutes across all fleets today, including 197s.

 

[Jez]

The 1330 is being replaced with a 150 at Cardiff. No surprises there.

But it's good that a few of the Cardiff to Manchesters are 197s now even if not all booked. Progress is very slowly being made.