The discussion largely happened in this thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-brighton-services.247923/page-2#post-6293091
What media attention is it getting now?
What media attention is it getting now?
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Southern timetable changes consultation Coastway West
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swt_passenger
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Some MP or other has just heard about it I think, it’s on Twitter:
I expect most objectors just don’t understand the operational benefits
HamworthyGoods
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Although there is no point having a wonderful timetable operationally if it doesn’t meet the needs of users. Has to be a balance.
Trainguy34
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When would this come into effect if at all?
OneOfThe48
Member
It also picked up coverage in a local Southampton news org, with some pretty strong comments.
Would be interested to know how many people from Southampton really go to Gatwick each day that the direct link is better than an extra train to Brighton.
www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/23712518.anger-southern-plans-axe-direct-southampton-gatwick-trains/
Would be interested to know how many people from Southampton really go to Gatwick each day that the direct link is better than an extra train to Brighton.
www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/23712518.anger-southern-plans-axe-direct-southampton-gatwick-trains/
Last edited:
May 2024
If passengers want these changes from Monday to Saturday, surely they would also want them on Sunday.
Is Sunday being ignored because they don't have the resources to modify that yet and will Sunday be looked at in the future?
I mean I believe Haywards Heath gets a direct train to Portsmouth on a Sunday. Why would one want that on a Sunday when it's not running any other day?
Yes if its good one service, you'd think it might be considered good for another.
If I were to guess its either because:
a) Southampton - Gatwick and Portsmouth - Brighton traffic is strongest on a Sunday
b) They’re keeping it as a control; so they can compare which iteration works better
Portsmouth services only run in the late evening and usually divide with the other portion going to Ore or Littlehampton, otherwise they only run frequently when the Arun Valley is closed
Or because it is operationally convenient in the context of a less frequent service running overall.
Southern have tweeted about this recently which has generated some interest.
There may be clear operational benefits but if you're from the Western end of the changes, they are not going to benefit passengers.
If you're from Southampton you loose your direct Gatwick service and instead receive a 7-10 min same platform connection at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. So overall, slower journeys and changes required.
If you're from Portsmouth you loose your direct Brighton services with 20 minute connections at Chichester or Barnham. You gain a second Gatwick/Victoria service.
The stopping service is cut back from Portsmouth to Chichester. The requires the stopping stations to be moved onto the two Gatwick/Victoria services. The minimum travel time between Portsmouth and Chichester will increase by 50%.
But hey it improves turnaround times, and presumably uses less units... so lets do it anyway.
It would make more sense if Southern provided a clockface timetable from Gatwick to Chichester and then one fast, one stopping to Portsmouth.
There may be clear operational benefits but if you're from the Western end of the changes, they are not going to benefit passengers.
If you're from Southampton you loose your direct Gatwick service and instead receive a 7-10 min same platform connection at Havant, Chichester or Barnham. So overall, slower journeys and changes required.
If you're from Portsmouth you loose your direct Brighton services with 20 minute connections at Chichester or Barnham. You gain a second Gatwick/Victoria service.
The stopping service is cut back from Portsmouth to Chichester. The requires the stopping stations to be moved onto the two Gatwick/Victoria services. The minimum travel time between Portsmouth and Chichester will increase by 50%.
But hey it improves turnaround times, and presumably uses less units... so lets do it anyway.
It would make more sense if Southern provided a clockface timetable from Gatwick to Chichester and then one fast, one stopping to Portsmouth.
I’m overall not too happy with the suggested changes. The fasts out of Brighton need to lose their Southwick calls, and there should be the 1tph splits for Portsmouth and Southampton, as with the London via Horshams. I also wondered about sending the Brighton stoppers to Bognor rather than Chichester but I don’t know if this is useful.
It all works fairly nicely if you don't look west of Chichester. For me swapping the Southampton and Pompey arms of their respective dishes doesn't use extra units. I don't see why both Portsmouth services have to go to the Harbour.
I wonder how much of this is needing to fit more stops into fewer services. Why does Hilsea need two services to Gatwick ever hour? Presumably because there is no third service to pick it up?
The answer is for SWR to reinstate the second fast service to Waterloo at xx50 from the Harbour, move the stopper back to xx24 from Southsea. Then choose one of the Gatwick to be faster to Chichester, and one to be slower.
I wonder how much of this is needing to fit more stops into fewer services. Why does Hilsea need two services to Gatwick ever hour? Presumably because there is no third service to pick it up?
The answer is for SWR to reinstate the second fast service to Waterloo at xx50 from the Harbour, move the stopper back to xx24 from Southsea. Then choose one of the Gatwick to be faster to Chichester, and one to be slower.
hermit
Member
Two trains to the Harbour offers us the prospect of better connections to the hourly Isle of Wight catamaran. The Victoria trains provide us with a useful route to Gatwick and are competitive with SWR in journey time to many parts of London. They are also cheaper.
Since the previous timetable change, which saw the Victoria trains almost all cut back to Portsmouth and Southsea ‘in order to improve reliability’, connections at the harbour to this route have been dire. This change will mean that we are no longer faced with waits of up to an hour there. This will be a major improvement for us, and for those coming across on the Gosport ferry.
evergreenadam
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Agree that these proposals are good for improving connections to the Isle of Wight because of the extension of all Southern services to Portsmouth Harbour. However it’s a shame that Portsmouth loses its direct service to Brighton.
The key advantage of these changes though is removing the lightly used Littlehampton to Portsmouth service and redeploying that stock in the Brighton area where there is more demand. Other services then have to pick up the local calls further west.
The challenge is that one of Brighton to Portsmouth and Gatwick to Southampton can't have a good connection because there is nowhere to do a 'perfect' cross platform interchange - the interchanges involve a wait.
Therefore, Southampton to Brighton connects out of / into the stopping service on the Arun Valley rather than the faster service, which increases journey times.
The challenge is that one of Brighton to Portsmouth and Gatwick to Southampton can't have a good connection because there is nowhere to do a 'perfect' cross platform interchange - the interchanges involve a wait.
Therefore, Southampton to Brighton connects out of / into the stopping service on the Arun Valley rather than the faster service, which increases journey times.
evergreenadam
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A previous comment suggested that the changes would save on rolling stock, it would be interesting to know if there are cost savings as a result and to what extent that was a motivation. I would feel more comfortable with the changes if I knew that this is the best that could be achieved with the same level of resources.
It appears to be reallocation of the same rolling stock, rather than cutting stock - eg the Hove shuttle and Littlehampton to Portsmouth service resources reallocated to operate Brighton to Chichester, and the existing Brighton / Victoria to Portsmouth / Southampton stock reshuffled.
evergreenadam
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Thanks, that’s reassuring.
swt_passenger
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[Sunday unchanging]
Southampton to Victoria hasn’t run on Sundays in over 20 years, from 2008 onwards the Southampton to Brighton service was an extra but ran 7/7 from introduction. So SN must not have considered the Southampton - Gatwick flow on Sunday was worth it.
hermit
Member
That’s true. But, again looking at this from the viewpoint of a Portsmouth Harbour user, at present there are large parts of the day (basically extended rush hour periods) when the Brighton trains terminate at Southsea and do not run through. My journeys to watch cricket at Hove, for example, usually involve a change at Fratton or Havant. So not very different under the new proposals.
In fact the change will give us two through trains an hour to Southern destinations whereas at present we have none for large parts of the day.
As a Fratton - London user, I used to have the option (ignoring via Eastleigh) of:
2 x 1hr 28min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 45min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 56min to Victoria (at a nice discount to Waterloo)
1 x 2hr 08min to Victoria (change at Havant, at a nice discount to Waterloo)
That will now be:
2 x 1hr 28min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 50min to Waterloo
2 x 2hr 12min to Victoria (at a nice discount to Waterloo)
They may be direct services but with both of them slower than the existing direct, or same-platform change services - its not a better option.
The simpler answer is to extend the existing Victoria-Southsea service to the Harbour, and return it back on the alternative half hour to its existing return. Same with Southampton.
2 x 1hr 28min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 45min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 56min to Victoria (at a nice discount to Waterloo)
1 x 2hr 08min to Victoria (change at Havant, at a nice discount to Waterloo)
That will now be:
2 x 1hr 28min to Waterloo
1 x 1hr 50min to Waterloo
2 x 2hr 12min to Victoria (at a nice discount to Waterloo)
They may be direct services but with both of them slower than the existing direct, or same-platform change services - its not a better option.
The simpler answer is to extend the existing Victoria-Southsea service to the Harbour, and return it back on the alternative half hour to its existing return. Same with Southampton.
HamworthyGoods
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Simple in terms of lines on the graph, not simple in terms of resourcing this plan as this would require extra trains which they don’t have due to having been required to shrink their fleet by the DfT.
Southern are giving that as the time from PMH - 2h5 is an average 3min slower than now but with no changing.
Not ideal but unless the 7-10min longer journey means needing to use a significantly earlier train to arrive by the required time not too bad so long as the first leg runs to time so the connection at Havant, Chichester or Barnham is made. In the real world though how often would the connection be missed?
Which is poor before considering one of the trains being cancelled.
Overall given 2023 travel patterns I wonder if more passengers would benefit from this than those who loose out from the loss of the direct Brighton service together with the significantly extended end to end journey time?
But what about what pasemgees want and where the biggest flows are?
Well theres a consultation for a reason…
But the consultation doesn't include Sundays or have I got that wrong?
Correct. But is there a pressing need to reorganise the Sunday service at no extra cost? If not, don't waste resources tryihg to plan it.
If the Sunday service is the same as the service for the rest of the week, but hourly, instead of half-hourly, that will represent some consistency.
The current Sunday service is already Brighton to Southampton and Victoria to Portsmouth (together with Brighton to Portsmouth).
Well wasn't the pressing need the types of journeys passengers want to make Monday to Saturday?
Do the passengers suddenly not wish to make these journeys on a Sunday? That is possible.
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