TFW To Shake Up Rail Timetables

[Krokodil]

Given the T19 was almost always very quiet outside of the school journeys, I am not sure how it's withdrawal has led to massively increased rail passenger numbers. Based off every T19 passenger moving onto the train, you'd only be looking at an extra 5-10 pax per train at a push. An extra 5-10 pax per train would not push the crowding to 'booming' unless the train normally was empty.

Which leads one to conclude that there must be other factors driving growth. That the infrastructure is more resilient than it used to be will have helped, as well as small things like the opening of a proper footpath between Dolgarrog station and the town it purports to serve. I look forward to the November release of station usage statistics, and the following release next year.

Given TFWs love of rail replacement buses, I am surprised that they haven't gone down the East Midlands Railway way of working for Skegness. Run trains and buses. Only those with reservations are guaranteed on the train. Everyone else is piled on later on and risks being put onto a bus.

They do. Standby buses get used at Prestatyn. Never mind using them to take those left behind after the train has departed, staff phone ahead of the train to say "you might as well start loading now"

So the TfW chief executive has basically said the Welsh rail network is unsustainable, with the exception of Manchester to Cardiff that they make a profit on. Given that statement, why is Manchester to Cardiff not guaranteed to get 3 car sets ahead of other routes, even when there's unit shortages?

Because 197s aren't yet cleared to work all routes which would mean set swaps at Cardiff.

It is unfortunately, because there's absolutely no heavy demand on weekday peaks in and out of Haverfordwest, Carmarthen, Tenby, Llanelli, Llandudno, Llandudno Junction, Bangor, Holyhead or Rhyl. And more importantly the working-day peak demand there is yields about the same as the "bucket and spade" day traffic.

The diagrams aren't contained to those destinations though, are they? Take the diagram that used to be LHCS. Would work a peak train to Manchester, take the holidaymakers to the coast and ferry passengers to the boat, then would return ferry passengers and holidaymakers to Manchester before working the evening peak back again. Loco, four coaches and DVT, spent most of the day with at least 200 passengers onboard. Plenty of diagrams covered multiple flows during the day like this - Birmingham rush hour returning with crowds for Barmouth.

The advantage that BR had of course was that its fleet was largely "go anywhere". So rakes of Mk1s based at OOC whose main role was commuter crowdbusting during the peaks would get used on weekends to the coast. Spare WCML Mk3 sets got borrowed for XC Saturday services. Tyseley DMMUs were borrowed by Cardiff to strengthen Saturday services for the shoppers in the run-up to Christmas. Now nothing is standard.

 

[Topological]

To be fair, at the worst of the 175 own goal TfW did cancel trains in West Wales to ensure there were units to run to Manchester.

It does feel like the revenues on the Marches are taken for granted though. Looking at what happens with Bidston might also suggest revenues in England are somewhat taken for granted, but...

The new timetable has a lot of promise, what we wait to see is the actuality.

 

[RJ]

I like that he says that 'standard of the replacement buses isn't what it should be'. Well I know that staff on the ground have been telling TFW and people on the phone (whoever that may be) what needs doing since the project started as I have heard them saying it. The issue is that those who have the power to make the changes seem to have their fingers in their ears and are singing 'la la la la'. The blocks could be significantly better and I have heard what many of the staff on the ground have been saying and it's all very valid points but based off the feedback that I have heard and the changes that I see being made, no listens to those on the ground. It sounds very much like whenever ground staff have got things under control, a TFW manager turns up, messes it all up somehow and then goes away leaving ground staff to deal with the fall out. Whenever ground staff ask for support, they get nothing, whenever they don't want help and need leaving alone, they get shed loads of support and oversight. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I know that one of the issues which comes up is when there is a full line closure, TFW seem to think that there are hundreds of buses lying around not being used and they can just call upon them to run all of the core valley lines. They don't seem to understand PSVAR or the shortage of buses or drivers. I know that at least 2 coach companies seem to keep turning up with buses significantly smaller than what was requested, much to the dismay of ground controllers. This has been going on for well over a year but they are firms who have buses and drivers, without them, there wouldn't be any buses left and the firms know that so they don't care. Many local firms are too 'family' firms and don't want rail replacement with the very early/lates which are offered. Many don't have PSVAR vehicles and have no need to invest in them because Wales school routes (which is what makes up 90% of bus/coach companies work) don't need to be PSVAR. There aren't many firms anymore with service buses. Some who have done rail have since stopped it and no one new is coming in to replace them. Lack of buses/drivers locally means moving further away to find operators and with the work being a few days here, few days there, no firm from too far away can justify sending buses down to Cardiff. The few firms who have availability are Birmingham firms and many drivers in the area tend to want to use sat navs rather than route learn and so they get stuck easily and not helped when TFW change stops on a weekly basis in some cases (like Treforrest moved, and probably still is moving, multiple times).

What was needed was Barmouth style big blockade. Shut the lines down but instead TFW insisted on teasing trains all of the time. I remember a few months back I did a calendar of the works which meant TFW were proposing to reopen lines for 1 or 2 days for trains then go back to buses. It's stuff like that which makes the buses a mess as no one. Staff nor passengers, know whether they are coming or going. The failure lies with James Price and senior management. Poorly planned, no care given towards passengers, not listening to those who know what they are doing.

I could go on all week.

I genuinely think they do the best they can under the circumstances. The impression I get is that the schedule from the trackwork end of the process can change at short notice for any number of reasons, giving rise to challenges for planning services.

In South Wales, some independents have invested in a fleet of buses for rail replacement and this makes sense as long as the drivers have something to do. I will shout out a couple of names of respected operations - Thomas of Rhondda and Teulu Travel are very good - they take it seriously with dedicated fleets of decent, appropriate vehicles and regular drivers who do the job very well. Stagecoach also do well sending out their E300s and their nice coaches that regularly appear have great drivers too.

The minibuses and mini coaches in South Wales are not often specified - in recent months I've only seen them requested for the Quakers Yard shuttle. They do however rule the roads in West and Central Wales, with full sizers only able to offer a limited stop service.

There is a finite supply of coaches and PSVAR buses, particularly during term times. As you correctly identify, the bulk of contract work in the area is schools and service routes so the majority of vehicles are optimised for that type of work. An effective way to increase the supply of desirable vehicles would be to offer contracts. While that might be possible in theory for the long term blockades (and that can be messy with closure limit changes), the adhoc nature of everything else means it would be risky to offer such an arrangement and thus too risky for operators to invest in much other than depreciated vehicles with limited financing risk. Asides from those who have taken the risk with dedicated rail fleets, the supply is largely made up of spare resource.
August Bank Holiday will be fun as the entire Valleys network will be out. Looking forward to seeing what appears as I missed out on the fun and games in May as I was out of the country.

I'm against the use of Sat Navs personally, especially if the driver is programming the stops in themselves. The postcodes provided are for the station entrance which not necessarily in the same place as the bus stop.

A rather more wealthy country. Have they ever replaced trains with buses? I don't know. Perhaps somebody else can enlighten us?

I’m pretty sure the Le Locle to Les Brenets branch is to be permanently bustituted if it hasn’t been already.

 

[markymark2000]

They do. Standby buses get used at Prestatyn. Never mind using them to take those left behind after the train has departed, staff phone ahead of the train to say "you might as well start loading now"

That is not the same as what is happening in Skegness with East Midlands.

I genuinely think they do the best they can under the circumstances. The impression I get is that the schedule from the trackwork end of the process can change at short notice for any number of reasons, giving rise to challenges for planning services.

In South Wales, some independents have invested in a fleet of buses for rail replacement and this makes sense as long as the drivers have something to do. I will shout out a couple of names of respected operations - Thomas of Rhondda and Teulu Travel are very good - they take it seriously with dedicated fleets of decent, appropriate vehicles and regular drivers who do the job very well. Stagecoach also do well sending out their E300s and their nice coaches that regularly appear have great drivers too.

I was not blaming most of the operators at all as I know that they do their very best and always try to cover as much work as they possibly can and so I commend 90% of the operators. The criticism was aimed more at TFW management and planning teams. It's very telling though when even Teulu and Thomas of Rhondda don't come out (or have a lot less buses out) some days because they dont have the resources to run all day, every day, especially on the larger blocks. There have been many days where Thomas of Rhondda have sent nothing out at all as they couldn't cover 18 hours per day, 7 days per week. There is still a shortage of drivers, even with the dedicated teams which are in place. It's also worth saying that Teulu has 8 buses I think that do rail but they also have school commitments in that. Thomas of Rhondda have about 5 buses in their rail replacement side. Stagecoach has 2-3 out in the week that I have seen. It's not a lot of buses really. Especially when you consider that Ponty to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr each take around 6 buses for the half hourly service (plus school buses on Treherbert). Pontypridd - Cardiff blocks are generally 10-15 buses, plus around 6-8 peak extras. Plus all of the standbys.

The Stagecoach coaches aren't the best really for the valleys as most of the bus stops aren't accessible with the wheelchair lifts. Given the amount of buggys and wheelchairs as well, a low floor service bus is much better. It's a shame that Stagecoach can't get more E300s just for rail, they have their drivers, just need more service buses. Stagecoach is also quite late to the party, the works have been going on for years already.

The minibuses and mini coaches in South Wales are not often specified - in recent months I've only seen them requested for the Quakers Yard shuttle. They do however rule the roads in West and Central Wales, with full sizers only able to offer a limited stop service.

You and I can both name at least 2 firms who put whatever they want out, irrespective of what was requested.

There is a finite supply of coaches and PSVAR buses, particularly during term times. As you correctly identify, the bulk of contract work in the area is schools and service routes so the majority of vehicles are optimised for that type of work. An effective way to increase the supply of desirable vehicles would be to offer contracts. While that might be possible in theory for the long term blockades (and that can be messy with closure limit changes), the adhoc nature of everything else means it would be risky to offer such an arrangement and thus too risky for operators to invest in much other than depreciated vehicles with limited financing risk. Asides from those who have taken the risk with dedicated rail fleets, the supply is largely made up of spare resource.

And this is one of the big issues. There just isn't the number of PSVAR buses in Wales that is needed for rail. That is an issue up and down Wales, not just the Valleys. As you say, I think that some longer contracts should have been issued as then firms would have had some incentive to get suitable buses.

August Bank Holiday will be fun as the entire Valleys network will be out. Looking forward to seeing what appears as I missed out on the fun and games in May as I was out of the country.

It looks like it will be a good block given the new timetable. Maybe someone has seen my comments as the new timetable is quite something. Unless things change, it's hourly Cardiff Central, Queen Street, straight to Pontypridd then up each valley line respectively. Plus every 20 minutes Cardiff to Pontypridd all stops. 12 buses for the branches-Cardiff (It looks like buses have 5 mins off in Cardiff, 45 up the valley. Not very good having 5 mins off in Cardiff!), 10 buses on the Ponty stoppers (based off them having to have breaks as a number of the firms work off EU/tacho rules even for rail). Plus no doubt about 10-20 standbys based off the normal blocks. There is surely no way that will all be covered locally, I think it will end up with some Bristol or Birmingham firms to help out with that. Bristol firms aren't as bad, it's Birmingham ones in my experience.

 

[rich.davies]

Not sure if anyone has come across this yet but TFW have a survey out that closes August 18th. (Apologies for the long link but i can't work out how to shorten it).

Im sure a lot of what's been put on this thread, might be worth of a transfer across to it.

North Wales Transport Commission | Have your say by Transport for Wales

We would be grateful if you could spend five minutes to provide your feedback on the project completing the survey provided.Your comments and feedback will help us to ensure that the final recommendations of the Commission are of most benefit and suitability to the people of North Wales, and...

haveyoursay.tfw.wales

 

[Krokodil]

Not sure if anyone has come across this yet but TFW have a survey out that closes August 18th. (Apologies for the long link but i can't work out how to shorten it).

Im sure a lot of what's been put on this thread, might be worth of a transfer across to it.

North Wales Transport Commission | Have your say by Transport for Wales

We would be grateful if you could spend five minutes to provide your feedback on the project completing the survey provided.Your comments and feedback will help us to ensure that the final recommendations of the Commission are of most benefit and suitability to the people of North Wales, and...

haveyoursay.tfw.wales

Thanks for sharing this, I had forgotten about that commission. Link to the report the survey refers to:

North Wales Transport Commission: Interim Report June 2023 | GOV.WALES

Conclusions and draft recommendations that focus on developing and delivering an integrated transport system in North Wales.

www.gov.wales

Far from recommending closure, it suggests frequency improvements on both the Conwy Valley and the Cambrian Coast, even going as far as saying that infrastructure improvements such as additional passing loops should be considered.

 

[30907]

I’m pretty sure the Le Locle to Les Brenets branch is to be permanently bustituted if it hasn’t been already.

The most recent of a steady trickle of branch lines and intermediate stations over the last 50 years, with IME almost empty buses replacing almost empty trains.

(Fewer closures than almost anywhere else in Europe - even Czechia - and of course generally a much improved and well coordinated service.)

 

[AndrewE]

Indeed, because those passengers four or five days per week, twice a day, yielded enough to cover that cost year-round.

I very much doubt that. Some friends who commuted into London from somewhere like Epsom or Stoneleigh challenged me about the price of my priv return to visit them in SW London for a weekend. We then compared prices per mile. They were staggered to discover that my quarter fare ticket (on the WCML where trains ran full all day every day) cost more per mile than their annual season, notwithstanding all the excess stock sitting round most of the day and crews doing just a couple of loaded trips either am or pm!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The interim NWTC report does not support any reopenings - a new station at Deeside is about the limit.
Infrastructure improvements for increased capacity/frequency are notoriously difficult to manage with Network Rail and often go off at half-cock (when the money runs out).
The North Wales main line has only just been resignalled (Connah's Quay to Llysfaen) so NR will not want to revisit that anytime soon.
Wrexham and Gobowen need resignalling but keep being pushed back (not to mention the Marches and Shrewsbury).
TfW has made its rolling stock fleet decisions - they aren't going to change either.
And money is not mentioned, or how much WG has to spend on rail.

 

[northwichcat]

Because 197s aren't yet cleared to work all routes which would mean set swaps at Cardiff.

In the circumstances a well communicated set swap at Cardiff may be the most sensible option. A 2 car 150 leaving Manchester Piccadilly with over 200 passengers and then arriving late in Cardiff because of the lower top speed, is hardly a solution that works!

 

[Krokodil]

The interim NWTC report does not support any reopenings - a new station at Deeside is about the limit.

I could see Holywell Junction happening too eventually.

The North Wales main line has only just been resignalled (Connah's Quay to Llysfaen) so NR will not want to revisit that anytime soon.

There's no need to, the new signalling is adequate for 6tph, well above any future ambitions.

Next step is resignalling the remaining sections of absolute block to the west, which would break up the long section between Gaerwen and Valley, remove the constraint of the overnight long section through Penmaenmawr, allow a longer service period to Llandudno and allow the linespeed to be raised. God knows when it'll happen though, like all resignallings it keeps being pushed back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jul 2023 ==

In the circumstances a well communicated set swap at Cardiff may be the most sensible option. A 2 car 150 leaving Manchester Piccadilly with over 200 passengers and then arriving late in Cardiff because of the lower top speed, is hardly a solution that works!

Are they even cleared for Manchester via Wilmslow yet?

 

[anthony263]

I can tell you that you'd find a far busier service than you might expect the growth these lines are seeing in the south west is massive to what I've seen. The milford branch is regularly fully seated by Carmarthen as is the Pembroke Dock branch, don't forget it runs through Saundersfoot and Tenby as well as Narberth which are tourist hot spots.

Kilgetty station isn't too much of a walk to folly farm

 

[sd0733]

Are they even cleared for Manchester via Wilmslow yet?

4 cars are cleared right through.
6 car proving have run but aren't yet signed off

 

[Anonymous10]

Kilgetty station isn't too much of a walk to folly farm

Kilgetty Station also has a well times bus link to folly farm.

 

[Starmill]

I very much doubt that. Some friends who commuted into London from somewhere like Epsom or Stoneleigh challenged me about the price of my priv return to visit them in SW London for a weekend. We then compared prices per mile. They were staggered to discover that my quarter fare ticket (on the WCML where trains ran full all day every day) cost more per mile than their annual season, notwithstanding all the excess stock sitting round most of the day and crews doing just a couple of loaded trips either am or pm!

Yes, but you made that one trip, and only paid for it when you made it. They were paying the full annual rate up front, which then earnt interest while it was in the bond waiting to be released.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, but you made that one trip, and only paid for it when you made it. They were paying the full annual rate up front, which then earnt interest while it was in the bond waiting to be released.

You really think that a season ticket - even if paid for the wholee year in advance - earned so much interest that the fare could be cheaper (for a commuter service which was only busy twice a day back then) than a quarter of the full public fare on a long-distance route where all the one train-an-hour branches (EUS to Manc, Lpool, Edb and Glasgow, plus 3 trains an hour to Brum,) were pretty well loaded all day?
I don't think so.

 

[Starmill]

You really think that a season ticket - even if paid for the wholee year in advance - earned so much interest that the fare could be cheaper (for a commuter service which was only busy twice a day back then) than a quarter of the full public fare on a long-distance route where all the one train-an-hour branches (EUS to Manc, Lpool, Edb and Glasgow, plus 3 trains an hour to Brum,) were pretty well loaded all day?
I don't think so.

Yes, because, to follow your example, you made one trip. They made a whole year's worth.

Even if implied average yeild were exactly the same, and excluding the cash flow effect, you're doing less than half of one per cent of their volume...

 

[allaction]

Kilgetty station isn't too much of a walk to folly farm

It’s 1.4 miles, and a steep, twisty route, alongside quite a fast road considering its width, and with narrow pavements would be borderline dangerous, in my view, with young children and possibly pushchairs or buggies.

 

[AndrewE]

Yes, because, to follow your example, you made one trip. They made a whole year's worth.

Even if implied average yeild were exactly the same, and excluding the cash flow effect, you're doing less than half of one per cent of their volume...

but millions of other people make "just one trip." It's a busy main line, and as I said trains ran well-loaded all day over the 400 mile length of the line. Unlike commuter lines around Greater London, which back then had loads of stock under-employed for most of the day and needed separate train-crews to work the two main tidal flows. Your commuters also only travelled (and paid for) a few dozen miles, at most.

It's no coincidence that InterCity was the outstanding (unique?) example of a profitable rail route, while NSE gobbled subsidies - as do all big city commuter networks. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that commuters who whinge about their fares have no concept of how much other people pay.

 

[Starmill]

but millions of other people make "just one trip." It's a busy main line, and as I said trains ran well-loaded all day over the 400 mile length of the line. Unlike commuter lines around Greater London, which back then had loads of stock under-employed for most of the day and needed separate train-crews to work the two main tidal flows. Your commuters also only travelled (and paid for) a few dozen miles, at most.

It's no coincidence that InterCity was the outstanding (unique?) example of a profitable rail route, while NSE gobbled subsidies - as do all big city commuter networks. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that commuters who whinge about their fares have no concept of how much other people pay.

Yes, but if you turn it around, all you're saying is that the unit price for one journey is four times that for a journey made with an Annual. Who should get the best rates if it isn't the most loyal customers?

 

[Krokodil]

but millions of other people make "just one trip." It's a busy main line, and as I said trains ran well-loaded all day over the 400 mile length of the line. Unlike commuter lines around Greater London, which back then had loads of stock under-employed for most of the day and needed separate train-crews to work the two main tidal flows. Your commuters also only travelled (and paid for) a few dozen miles, at most.

It's no coincidence that InterCity was the outstanding (unique?) example of a profitable rail route, while NSE gobbled subsidies - as do all big city commuter networks. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that commuters who whinge about their fares have no concept of how much other people pay.

It's certainly not a new concept that intercity TOCs are the most profitable, followed by ex-NSE (though times may have changes a little there) and then by regional TOCs. Alphaline services such as Cardiff-Manchester, TPE, Cardiff-Portsmouth, Inter7City etc. would probably fit in between IC and NSE if they were measured as a separate category.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Jul 2023 ==

Yes, but if you turn it around, all you're saying is that the unit price for one journey is four times that for a journey made with an Annual. Who should get the best rates if it isn't the most loyal customers?

This has been a consequence of the gap between regulated and unregulated fares growing over the years. The season ticket has only been permitted to rise by RPI+X%, whereas the Anytime ticket has been put up by as much as the TOC dares, often to price off demand that they can't accommodate. It's led to the perverse situation on some routes where if you travel to London on two days per week at peak times you may as well buy a season.

Whether season ticket holders are subsidised or walk-up passengers are being fleeced depends upon your point of view.

 

[RJ]

I was not blaming most of the operators at all as I know that they do their very best and always try to cover as much work as they possibly can and so I commend 90% of the operators. The criticism was aimed more at TFW management and planning teams. It's very telling though when even Teulu and Thomas of Rhondda don't come out (or have a lot less buses out) some days because they dont have the resources to run all day, every day, especially on the larger blocks. There have been many days where Thomas of Rhondda have sent nothing out at all as they couldn't cover 18 hours per day, 7 days per week. There is still a shortage of drivers, even with the dedicated teams which are in place. It's also worth saying that Teulu has 8 buses I think that do rail but they also have school commitments in that. Thomas of Rhondda have about 5 buses in their rail replacement side. Stagecoach has 2-3 out in the week that I have seen. It's not a lot of buses really. Especially when you consider that Ponty to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr each take around 6 buses for the half hourly service (plus school buses on Treherbert). Pontypridd - Cardiff blocks are generally 10-15 buses, plus around 6-8 peak extras. Plus all of the standbys.

The Stagecoach coaches aren't the best really for the valleys as most of the bus stops aren't accessible with the wheelchair lifts. Given the amount of buggys and wheelchairs as well, a low floor service bus is much better. It's a shame that Stagecoach can't get more E300s just for rail, they have their drivers, just need more service buses. Stagecoach is also quite late to the party, the works have been going on for years already.


You and I can both name at least 2 firms who put whatever they want out, irrespective of what was requested.


And this is one of the big issues. There just isn't the number of PSVAR buses in Wales that is needed for rail. That is an issue up and down Wales, not just the Valleys. As you say, I think that some longer contracts should have been issued as then firms would have had some incentive to get suitable buses.


It looks like it will be a good block given the new timetable. Maybe someone has seen my comments as the new timetable is quite something. Unless things change, it's hourly Cardiff Central, Queen Street, straight to Pontypridd then up each valley line respectively. Plus every 20 minutes Cardiff to Pontypridd all stops. 12 buses for the branches-Cardiff (It looks like buses have 5 mins off in Cardiff, 45 up the valley. Not very good having 5 mins off in Cardiff!), 10 buses on the Ponty stoppers (based off them having to have breaks as a number of the firms work off EU/tacho rules even for rail). Plus no doubt about 10-20 standbys based off the normal blocks. There is surely no way that will all be covered locally, I think it will end up with some Bristol or Birmingham firms to help out with that. Bristol firms aren't as bad, it's Birmingham ones in my experience.

I know, I meant the bus procurement teams are doing the best they can with what’s available in the area and the changing nature of the closures. Some other operators who are serious about doing rail have appeared - Star Coaches for example and Regional Transport were recruiting for the Cardiff area on Facebook - their excellent reputation precedes them.

Two may have become one in recent weeks, but the supply of full sized single deckers has increased at the same time and will continue to increase.

I think that any operator who does registered service routes as their core business would be cautious taking on rail replacement during periods of driver shortages. Even if it's full time controllers or office staff who are doing the duties, the optics can attract unnecessary attention. At the moment it appears establishment levels in the area are ok with quite a few drivers looking for work, but that may change when the schools are back.

It’s great fun getting to grips with the routes. Cardiff to the Valleys are a good 30 miles long. Training drivers properly, especially if they aren't local to the area, does take time and there are around 15 routes to learn. Round these parts the starter routes include Pontypridd - Cardiff, Aberdare, Merthyr Tydfil and Treherbert. Next level includes Cardiff to Ebbw Vale and Rhymney, plus Penarth, Barry Island and both Bridgend routes. And top rate drivers get the Swanline, Heart of Wales, Carmarthen, Hereford/Shrewsbury, Gloucester and Cheltenham jobs. The routes for which there is no supervised route learning because they come up irregularly, so calls on a different set of skills to cover. Maesteg is in its own special category.

A benefit to contracts is retaining staff who have been trained by having regular work for them to do. Not every PCV holder is comfortable with the hazards on these routes - tight clearances, blind bends on single track sections, grounding risks and reversing/shunt moves, so it's in everyone's interest to encourage those who are great with these with as much work as they would like. But, nobody will want to be on the hook for paying for contracts if the volume of closures unexpectedly decreases.

 

[CalderTrains]

The spotlight is on other operators being terrible, but TfW have to be the worst operator around. The quality of service, price, comfort and timeliness is all shocking. I've got a long journey from Yorkshire to Hereford this week and I'm going via Birmingham as I simply just don't want to put up with TfW's atrocious service on the Marches Line. They will/are losing customers as a result of the current service, and running 153s on Manchester to Tenby is shocking. Bear in mind they like cancelling at Crewe + Wilmslow!

 

[Dai Corner]

but millions of other people make "just one trip." It's a busy main line, and as I said trains ran well-loaded all day over the 400 mile length of the line. Unlike commuter lines around Greater London, which back then had loads of stock under-employed for most of the day and needed separate train-crews to work the two main tidal flows. Your commuters also only travelled (and paid for) a few dozen miles, at most.

It's no coincidence that InterCity was the outstanding (unique?) example of a profitable rail route, while NSE gobbled subsidies - as do all big city commuter networks. I'm not saying that is wrong, just that commuters who whinge about their fares have no concept of how much other people pay.

Although InterCity passengers typically have more spacious and comfortable accomodation and higher average and maximum speeds than short distance commuters. 390v455.

 

[Anonymous10]

The spotlight is on other operators being terrible, but TfW have to be the worst operator around. The quality of service, price, comfort and timeliness is all shocking. I've got a long journey from Yorkshire to Hereford this week and I'm going via Birmingham as I simply just don't want to put up with TfW's atrocious service on the Marches Line. They will/are losing customers as a result of the current service, and running 153s on Manchester to Tenby is shocking. Bear in mind they like cancelling at Crewe + Wilmslow!

Issue is they have sent the 175s off lease. I'm just hoping things improve with the 197s introduction.

 

[markymark2000]

I know, I meant the bus procurement teams are doing the best they can with what’s available in the area and the changing nature of the closures. Some other operators who are serious about doing rail have appeared - Star Coaches for example and Regional Transport were recruiting for the Cardiff area on Facebook - their excellent reputation precedes them.

100%, the bus teams somehow always manage to make things work. Probably through good folk such as yourself offering to do extra bits when you can.

Two may have become one in recent weeks, but the supply of full sized single deckers has increased at the same time and will continue to increase.

Only if firms such as yourself expand the provision. I think even if you expanded up to 5 buses, there would still be a big shortage on the rail side. Regional only does Cardiff when there is enough work to justify them being there and Star Coach aren't that big, they tend to only have 1 bus out at a time.

I think that any operator who does registered service routes as their core business would be cautious taking on rail replacement during periods of driver shortages. Even if it's full time controllers or office staff who are doing the duties, the optics can attract unnecessary attention.

Such as Stagecoach who are still cancelling endless amounts of services but have sufficient drivers to set up a rail replacement division. I know there are some other things to consider in this but it is an example of a company doing exactly what you are saying attracts unnecessary attention. Newport Bus has loads of agency drivers but they are still doing rail.

At the moment it appears establishment levels in the area are ok with quite a few drivers looking for work, but that may change when the schools are back.

If drivers are 'looking for work' in the Valleys, that is worrying as there are still tons of agency drivers running for Stagecoach, Newport Bus and I think Adventure may still have some agency drivers. If someone is looking for a bus driving job in the valleys, it likely (not definitely, but more often than not. Just had to do a disclaimer as I know what select member of this forum are like) means either they don't like the companies who are on offer (for reasons such as pay, conditions etc) or they are the issue and have been sacked from too many places and word has gotten around. Everyone knows everyone in the valleys, they all know who are the good drivers and not so good and word of mouth is very strong amongst Valleys Indies.

The spotlight is on other operators being terrible, but TfW have to be the worst operator around. The quality of service, price, comfort and timeliness is all shocking. I've got a long journey from Yorkshire to Hereford this week and I'm going via Birmingham as I simply just don't want to put up with TfW's atrocious service on the Marches Line. They will/are losing customers as a result of the current service, and running 153s on Manchester to Tenby is shocking. Bear in mind they like cancelling at Crewe + Wilmslow!

It's mostly Labour areas it affects though and labour politicians wont speak up because it's nationalised and they whinged and whined about Arriva and now it's nationalised, it's worse. Notice how like Steve Rotherham kicked off about Northern and how privatisation failed. Where are the same calls about TFW on the borderlands and Halton Curve? None existent because it would undermine party policies.

I agree with you though about avoiding TFW as I do it. I will always try to go via Crewe and Birmingham rather than Shrewsbury and the Marshes as it's always an awful journey.

 

[The exile]

Yes, but if you turn it around, all you're saying is that the unit price for one journey is four times that for a journey made with an Annual. Who should get the best rates if it isn't the most loyal customers?

Clearly a quantity discount should apply. The point being made is that season ticket holders complaining about the cost of that ticket don’t realise how (relatively) cheap they’re getting it and what small a percentage of the cost of their service provision they’re paying.

 

[CalderTrains]

It's mostly Labour areas it affects though and labour politicians wont speak up because it's nationalised and they whinged and whined about Arriva and now it's nationalised, it's worse. Notice how like Steve Rotherham kicked off about Northern and how privatisation failed. Where are the same calls about TFW on the borderlands and Halton Curve? None existent because it would undermine party policies.

I agree with you though about avoiding TFW as I do it. I will always try to go via Crewe and Birmingham rather than Shrewsbury and the Marshes as it's always an awful journey.

I think you're wholly correct there and it's somewhat of a scandal that they don't speak up about this absolutely atrocious service. TfW have the resources to get correct trains on the correct services but more or less don't as their units always seem to end up stuck somewhere. I last travelled with TfW in April as I did a journey from my local to Aberystwyth, arrived at Shrewsbury 40 mins late despite the train setting off only 6 down, and the return was 24 minutes late off Aberystwyth.
I've more or less determined that I'll only travel with them if it's unavoidable and the fact that it's a 1 in 2 chance your train will turn up in the very rural stations of the HOWL is just shocking. This shouldn't be made about politics at all, if a service is bad, someone who actually represents those using the service should speak up. I usually have patience with TOCs but I've completely lost that with TfW.

 

[Starmill]

Clearly a quantity discount should apply. The point being made is that season ticket holders complaining about the cost of that ticket don’t realise how (relatively) cheap they’re getting it and what small a percentage of the cost of their service provision they’re paying.

But getting the best rate doesn't necccesarily mean it's good value at all. It could just mean tickets for one journey are painfully expensive. Also getting the best rates doesn't mean they are covering a small portion of the cost either. Being able to rely on revenue from very frequent travellers was very important prior to the pandemic, their continuing absence is a large part of the reason why we now have such a lack of funding. No actual prices were presented so we can't say more than that.

 

[rich.davies]

TFW have now launched a map to track services in real time. I know most us are aware of RTT but i doubt the avarage traveller would be aware of it, so may prove useful.

Frustrated Borderlands Line commuters can track late trains in real time thanks to new TfW map

www.deeside.com