• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

TFW To Shake Up Rail Timetables

Status
Not open for further replies.

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
If the railway hadn't survived (was that because of traffic for the long closed Trawsfyndd power station?)
That wasn't the reason that the passenger service survived. It survived for the same reason that the Whitby line survived - because the Crimea Pass is impassable in a bad winter and communities would be cut off without the railway. Closure would have caused undue hardship.

there probably would be more than a handful of people using the bus.
Many more would be using cars, not travelling at all, or leaving the area.

Why should the Conwy Valley have the luxury of a train service when, say, the Rhondda Fach or Sirhowy valleys in the south have to make do with buses
Coal tips don't have quite the same tourist appeal as the Snowdonia National Park. Tourist income supplements the local traffic in a big way, as well as being a key part of the local economy.

If you want to come up with a viable scheme to reopen them, be my guest. I'm pro-rail.

I'm aware that BR did consider a passenger service on the Rhondda Fach when the freight was drying up. The answer was that the line was on the wrong side of the valley for the main towns which would have stunted passenger numbers.

As for the Sirhowy railway, that passenger service didn't even last long enough for the Beeching Report.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
That wasn't the reason that the passenger service survived. It survived for the same reason that the Whitby line survived - because the Crimea Pass is impassable in a bad winter and communities would be cut off without the railway. Closure would have caused undue hardship.


Many more would be using cars, not travelling at all, or leaving the area.


Coal tips don't have quite the same tourist appeal as the Snowdonia National Park. Tourist income supplements the local traffic in a big way, as well as being a key part of the local economy.

If you want to come up with a viable scheme to reopen them, be my guest. I'm pro-rail.

I'm aware that BR did consider a passenger service on the Rhondda Fach when the freight was drying up. The answer was that the line was on the wrong side of the valley for the main towns which would have stunted passenger numbers.

As for the Sirhowy railway, that passenger service didn't even last long enough for the Beeching Report.
The Cardiff Valleys are densely populated and don't rely on fickle, seasonal traffic. The railways there primarily carry people year round on essential journeys to work etc and provide the capacity that the roads alone can't.

Would the same decisions be made today as British Rail made decades ago?

Instead of maintaining the Conwy Valley railway, why not spend the money on making the roads more resilient?

I'm posing questions for a hypothetical integrated transport authority for Wales, not advocating one way or the other.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
The Cardiff Valleys are densely populated
The Rhondda Fach isn't anything like as dense as its neighbours.

The railways there primarily carry people year round on essential journeys to work etc
Can people employed in hospitality work with no customers?

and provide the capacity that the roads alone can't.
Because traffic and parking isn't an issue in national parks...

Would the same decisions be made today as British Rail made decades ago?
If the infrastructure was still intact in the 2000s, the Rhondda Fach may well have been considered for reopening to passengers, just like Ebbw Vale was when freight ended. The opportunity does exist for Hirwaun, even though the economic case will be marginal. Reopening a lifted line is a whole different ball game to keeping one going, or reopening a freight line to passengers.

Instead of maintaining the Conwy Valley railway, why not spend the money on making the roads more resilient?
Roads get subsidised enough.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
The Rhondda Fach isn't anything like as dense as its neighbours
There are enough passengers to support five buses an hour.
Can people employed in hospitality work with no customers?
No. Do we know how much passengers arriving by train spend in the Conwy Valley?
Because traffic and parking isn't an issue in national parks...
Do many tourists park at Llandudno Junction and catch the train?
Roads get subsidised enough.
I think you'll find taxes levied on road vehicles exceed the amount spent on roads.
 

Caaardiff

Established Member
Joined
9 Jun 2019
Messages
1,385
Many would argue that A lot of what TFW have gone through is simply down to poor planning and the inability of having a fallback when things go wrong.

It can be taken back as far as when TFW took on the Franchise;

Pacers were due to leave, and no fallback was arranged. An issue under the control of Arriva at the time.
769's were brought in, a new concept of making an old electric train become a diesel. That didn't prove succesful. TFW would argue they arranged to bring in one Class 37 and non-compliant carriages service. The reality of outside those peak service, when the class 37 didn't fail, was passengers ultimately suffered from the poor reliability of the 769's that were in use, once they finally made it into service.

With the lack of Pacers, the 150's were stretched further, resulting in previous 4 car formations being 2 car and a stretched fleet that used to have some slack in it.

TFW would argue they were 2 150's short after the Craven Arms collision. Well, the 2 Northern 150's were brought in, and TFW still used it as an excuse. They brought in a bunch of 153's which had costly refurbs and only have so much life left in them.

The 230 introduction was heavily delayed, another electric train being made diesel that wasn't successful (see a pattern here?). No contingency for that not happening in a timely manner and now the Bidston line is a complete mess.

TFW continued after covid to reintroduce services. Introducing Newport - Crosskeys, bringing separate swanline services back and increases to HOW services, further stretching the requirement placed on the fleet, with even less slack when things go wrong.

TFW would argue the 175 fires caused a huge shortage of the fleet. Many would argue that the 175 fleet were due to start to leave as 197's were introduced. As has been shown know where CAF are unable to manage both the 197 introductions and the remaining 175 fleet alongside each other. Was it always going to work? I doubt it. Again poor planning and preparedness for the fleet crossover.

TFW are trying to introduce a brand new fleet of 197's, 231's, 756's and 398's, as well as the 769's, 230's and Mk4's. All of which requiring a huge amount of train crew training, hence the regular cancellations due to lack of train crew, many of which are on training with other overtime not being taken to cover the short falls. With a reduced service there would be more slack in train crew availability and less cancellations.

When you look at all of the above, TFW had no contingency for when things went wrong. They had the grand plans to deliver a complete transformation in a short amount of time. James Price admitted himself to the parliament group that that wasn't such a good idea.
On the topic of longer term buses to replace trains, had they bit the bullet back in 2018/2019 and worked with WG to introduce temporary bus services on certain routes then that would be a viable alternative to some train journeys. But now they are too far gone to introduce any kind of decent replacement bus service, because ultimately in 1-2 years time most of the fleet will be in and most of the training complete. Investing in new buses to run a service for what would be a matter of months or 1 or 2 years would not be financially viable.

Any major change to timetables now would not get through until at least the December timetable, if not much later. And at that point things will be very different anyway.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
Many would argue that A lot of what TFW have gone through is simply down to poor planning and the inability of having a fallback when things go wrong.

It can be taken back as far as when TFW took on the Franchise;
No it goes back before the franchise started. For example Welsh ministers were repeatedly told about the need to sort out PRM but they just passed the buck to the new world class franchise. The ROSCO just wanted a garuntee that the new franchise would operate the 150 for a short period which with hindsight would not have been difficult with the delay in 197 introduction.
 

Dr Day

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2018
Messages
759
Location
Bristol
As said upthread, it very much depends on the scope of the review. It could be a very short term ‘what can we do to recover operational performance’ (ie punctuality and reliability) or it could be a much more strategic commercially focused study ‘now we have a better idea of post covid demand and costs and have paused a few things that seemed a good idea at the time but maybe don’t stack up any more, how should we deploy the limited resources we have (both physical and financial) to get the best bang for our buck in terms of maximum passenger km by rail?’. The latter could be for implementation in Dec 24 or even later. The conclusions could be very different depending on the objectives- how Wales-focused they are, the need to drive revenue, the appetite for change and whether anything else such as integration with other modes and fares is in scope. It may simply be a few tweaks to the draft Dec 23 timetable to be less ambitious and allow a bit more time for the new rolling stock to settle in.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
There are enough passengers to support five buses an hour.
As I said above, it could justify reopening mothballed infrastructure in the 2000s (it couldn't with the population levels and employment patterns of the 1980s) but it will struggle to justify rebuilding a lifted formation.

No. Do we know how much passengers arriving by train spend in the Conwy Valley?
Here are some national statistics:

Do many tourists park at Llandudno Junction and catch the train?
Most passengers either travel from their accommodation in Llandudno, or connect at Llandudno Junction from trains from further afield - plenty from London. They would either have driven or just gone somewhere else if the Conwy Valley Line wasn't an option. Each passenger who arrives from London has already spent £100+ on rail tickets, and will be booking into accommodation, spending a considerable amount locally. A day return from Maerdy to Cardiff doesn't really compare.

I think you'll find taxes levied on road vehicles exceed the amount spent on roads.
Not by a long way, the cost of roads to society go way beyond just repairing them. Every few weeks there's a nasty crash on the A470. Someone gets airlifted to Stoke (RSUH specialise in major trauma), or perhaps it's less serious and four people end up in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. The air ambulance alone will cost £3k, god knows what the ICU costs. Pollution carries a cost too, as does congestion. Do you seriously think that VED and Fuel Duty cover absolutely every cost that roads incur?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

You do miss the important factor that you don't miss what you've never had. There won't be many people left in the Rhondda Fach who have any memories of passenger trains, whereas in the Conwy Valley you are suggesting removing something that they're already using. It's a lot more difficult to lose something than to have never had it in the first place.
 
Last edited:

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,488
Location
Powys
Every few weeks there's a nasty crash on the A470. Someone gets airlifted to Stoke (RSUH specialise in major trauma), or perhaps it's less serious and four people end up in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd. The air ambulance alone will cost £3k, god knows what the ICU costs.

As someone who lives on part of the A470 and is involved with both the Welsh Ambulance Service and with the Welsh Air Ambulance I will take those comments with a very large pinch of salt! Which hospital patients get carried to depends greatly on where the incident takes place and the injuries invloved, and the use of the Air Ambulance for road incidents is not as prevelant as you seem to think. Plus the Air Ambulance does not receive funds from the Government, but is totally supported by voluntary donations.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
As someone who lives on part of the A470 and is involved with both the Welsh Ambulance Service and with the Welsh Air Ambulance I will take those comments with a very large pinch of salt! Which hospital patients get carried to depends greatly on where the incident takes place and the injuries invloved, and the use of the Air Ambulance for road incidents is not as prevelant as you seem to think. Plus the Air Ambulance does not receive funds from the Government, but is totally supported by voluntary donations.
I didn't say that every single casualty gets airlifted to Stoke. For the recent collision with four casualties, what was the cost of the paramedics, vehicles, and hospital resources to take them to Ysbyty Glan Clwyd? The cost will have racked up to a couple of £k. Definitely far more than the combined VED and Fuel Duty that was paid by the owners of the cars involved that year, before you even get onto the cost of maintaining the road and the economic effects of congestion.

It doesn't matter that air ambulance funds come from charitable sources rather than government funding, RTCs are still a drain upon society.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
Do you seriously think that VED and Fuel Duty cover absolutely every cost that roads incur?
In short Yes. VED and Fuel Duty raised over £30bn in 2021/2022 plus about £12bn in VAT on fuel, vehicles and associated purchases, £1.2bn in Insuranace premium Tax, £0.5bn in tolls and ULEZ charges. And that goes without counting the GDP produced that is enabled by road transport.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
VED and Fuel Duty raised over £30bn in 2021/202
Which falls some way short of the £48bn in costs to HM Treasury estimated by a 2012 Dresden Technical University study (to which you can add a decade's inflation).

plus about £12bn in VAT on fuel, vehicles and associated purchases
What does the VAT on chocolate digestives fund? Can we hypothecate that too?

£1.2bn in Insuranace premium Tax
Does the insurance premium tax on my home insurance pay for flood defences? This is all general taxation.

£0.5bn in tolls and ULEZ charges.
Still doesn't add up to £48bn, let alone whatever inflation has brought that to since 2012 (£65bn?)

And that goes without counting the GDP produced that is enabled by road transport.
And the £48/65bn doesn't include costs resulting from congestion or ill health caused by sedentary lifestyles.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
Which falls some way short of the £48bn in costs to HM Treasury estimated by a 2012 Dresden Technical University study (to which you can add a decade's inflation).
I'm sorry but I need more than an estimate from one study a decade ago commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament that you read about in the Guardian.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
I'm sorry but I need more than an estimate from one study a decade ago commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament that you read about in the Guardian.
I don't read the Grauniad actually.

I'll need more than whatever figures you got from the road lobby before you'll convince me that the way that roads are used in this country isn't extremely damaging to society.
 

tomuk

Established Member
Joined
15 May 2010
Messages
2,009
I don't read the Grauniad actually.

I'll need more than whatever figures you got from the road lobby before you'll convince me that the way that roads are used in this country isn't extremely damaging to society.
Where did you hear about the study then? From the green lobby? As to my figures just look at treasury data. I really don't understand how you can believe
the way that roads are used in this country isn't extremely damaging to society.
It is a nonsense to do so.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
As to my figures just look at treasury data
I'm not disputing that £30.5bn is the income to the Treasury (you can't include VAT, it covers a wide range of goods). I'm saying that the costs of our car-dependant society are far higher than merely the cost of road upkeep.

- How much productive time for example is lost in traffic jams?

- How much does a sedentary lifestyle cost the NHS? Roughly £0.8bn.

- What is all this pollution doing to our lungs? Rosamund Kissi-Debrah can tell us a lot about that.

- What effect do roads have on local businesses? Studies have shown for decades that pedestrianisation drives up shop sales.

If wanting a better future makes me part of "the green lobby" then I'll wear that badge with honour. You remind me of a bloke I know who keeps ranting about an offshore windfarm and goes on about how he burned extra coal last winter to stick two fingers up at Greta Thunberg.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
I'm not disputing that £30.5bn is the income to the Treasury (you can't include VAT, it covers a wide range of goods). I'm saying that the costs of our car-dependant society are far higher than merely the cost of road upkeep.

- How much productive time for example is lost in traffic jams?

- How much does a sedentary lifestyle cost the NHS? Roughly £0.8bn.

- What is all this pollution doing to our lungs? Rosamund Kissi-Debrah can tell us a lot about that.

- What effect do roads have on local businesses? Studies have shown for decades that pedestrianisation drives up shop sales.

If wanting a better future makes me part of "the green lobby" then I'll wear that badge with honour. You remind me of a bloke I know who keeps ranting about an offshore windfarm and goes on about how he burned extra coal last winter to stick two fingers up at Greta Thunberg.
Would you advocate closing the A470, A55, M4, A40, A465 and other Welsh trunk roads and trying to transport all the goods and passengers they carry by rail?
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
I'm not advocating closing anything (other than pedestrianising shopping streets). I'm advocating providing better rail services (passenger and freight) so that people choose to move away from congested roads, freeing up capacity for those who haven't got a realistic alternative. You're advocating cutting rail services and making roads more congested.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
Most passengers either travel from their accommodation in Llandudno, or connect at Llandudno Junction from trains from further afield - plenty from London. They would either have driven or just gone somewhere else if the Conwy Valley Line wasn't an option. Each passenger who arrives from London has already spent £100+ on rail tickets, and will be booking into accommodation, spending a considerable amount locally. A day return from Maerdy to Cardiff doesn't really compare.
A hypothetical Maerdy commuter would spend thousands of pounds earned in Cardiff in their local community every year and the purchaser of a day return from the valley to Cardiff for shopping or entertainment a significant sum there. Longer distance travellers could spend hundreds on onward rail travel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I'm not advocating closing anything (other than pedestrianising shopping streets). I'm advocating providing better rail services (passenger and freight) so that people choose to move away from congested roads, freeing up capacity for those who haven't got a realistic alternative. You're advocating cutting rail services and making roads more congested.
Sure, if the roads are congested, as they are into Cardiff and the large English cities close to Wales. But in rural areas where they're not maintaining two transport infrastructures is harder to justify.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,829
TfW aren't going to close any routes, it's a complete non starter for political reasons. So can we please move on?
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
TfW aren't going to close any routes, it's a complete non starter for political reasons. So can we please move on?
They already have. Newport-Crosskeys (except for some services on Sundays) and Wrexham-Bidston (which is so unreliable it's reported that almost all passengers have given up)
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
They already have. Newport-Crosskeys (except for some services on Sundays) and Wrexham-Bidston (which is so unreliable it's reported that almost all passengers have given up)
That's not closing a route. Passengers between Newport and Crosskeys can go via Cardiff, no station is being left without a service. Wrexham-Bidston is unreliable but that doesn't equate to a route closure.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,829
That's not closing a route. Passengers between Newport and Crosskeys can go via Cardiff, no station is being left without a service. Wrexham-Bidston is unreliable but that doesn't equate to a route closure.
Exactly. And in any case, both routes will be back up and running (and the former extended to Ebbw Vale) as soon as there are enough units and traincrew available for it to happen.
 

Murpho

New Member
Joined
27 Jul 2023
Messages
4
Location
Liverpool
Neither you, nor I are privy to the maintenance schedules for 175s. We don't know how often (if at all) Alstom's manual mandated that the charge air coolers be non-destructively tested for cracks.


I still can't work out where that would be though. The only place where train lengths were due to increase was the Marches and that's unlikely to change. Otherwise, I can't think of what enhancements on the mainline might be binned. Liverpools are here to stay, though maybe they'll knock the through trains to Cardiff on the head. Would they abandon the hourly service on the Cambrian main line?

Only thing that I can think of is the South Wales commuter routes, but that won't yield rolling stock for elsewhere - unless the plan is to free up FLIRTs to displace the remaining 153s from service in West Wales.
I really hope the Cardiff service from here goes ahead even if its a few trains per day at first although its looking not likely at all. I've always felt like for a city region with 2 million people Liverpool is awfully underserved, compared to others.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,990
That's not closing a route. Passengers between Newport and Crosskeys can go via Cardiff, no station is being left without a service. Wrexham-Bidston is unreliable but that doesn't equate to a route closure.
They're being left without a service to Newport, but hardly anybody cares because there's a parallel bus service which is quicker, more frequent, cheaper and more convenient for passengers than a train via Cardiff and costs the taxpayer little if anything as the roads it runs on have to be maintained anyway.

Why shouldn't a future integrated transport authority consider whether bus or train is the optimum solution for this line and the rural branch lines, all things, including maintenance of the track, considered?

Wrexham- Bidston is probably best served by (suitable, reliable) trains as I understand it was busy before the 230s, connecting a medium sized and a large city with significant intermediate population.
 

Topological

Established Member
Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
4,316
Location
Swansea
The additional Liverpool trains on the Marches have always seemed like a way to give a more balanced service to the stations along the line.

On the occasion of needing to travel to Liverpool, the direct service would be very useful. Changing at Crewe is ok, but a dedicated service via Chester would be more convenient. I suspect there is a reasonable flow based on the number getting off Manchester trains in Crewe normally (and allowing for the fact many will be going north on the WCML)
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
6,012
They're being left without a service to Newport, but hardly anybody cares because there's a parallel bus service which is quicker, more frequent, cheaper and more convenient for passengers than a train via Cardiff and costs the taxpayer little if anything as the roads it runs on have to be maintained anyway.

Why shouldn't a future integrated transport authority consider whether bus or train is the optimum solution for this line and the rural branch lines, all things, including maintenance of the track, considered?
Isn't the Newport <> Crosskeys service the forerunner of an intended Ebbw Vale <> Newport service? Being a longer run, that would presumably be more advantageous against any bus alternative (if there is one).

Though given TfW's current shortage of stock, it might be more sensible to defer it until the full Ebbw Vale service can be introduced, which I think is awaiting some additional track.
 

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Isn't the Newport <> Crosskeys service the forerunner of an intended Ebbw Vale <> Newport service? Being a longer run, that would presumably be more advantageous against any bus alternative (if there is one).

Though given TfW's current shortage of stock, it might be more sensible to defer it until the full Ebbw Vale service can be introduced, which I think is awaiting some additional track.

Is the track still in place on the Ebbw Vale from when it started to be redoubled years ago, and is a simple matter of connecting it up?
 

DelW

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2015
Messages
6,012
Is the track still in place on the Ebbw Vale from when it started to be redoubled years ago, and is a simple matter of connecting it up?
I don't know - IIRC it was mainly a matter of adding an extra passing loop, but I've no idea how much work has been done or what the timescale is for anything further.
 

Krokodil

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2023
Messages
6,581
Location
Wales
Why shouldn't a future integrated transport authority consider whether bus or train is the optimum solution for this line and the rural branch lines, all things, including maintenance of the track, considered?
Of course they should consider all factors, including the effect upon the local economy and the environment of closure.

If you want to know what good integrated transport would look like, take a look at Switzerland. The train would be more frequent and would connect properly with the Sherpas and TrawsCymru network at Betws and Blaenau. The Swiss certainly wouldn't do a headcount of the 100 people on a typical daytime journey at this time of year and go "what we need to do is cram this lot onto a bus".

There's a few reasons why they used to use two buses for the rail replacement work if the line was closed in the summer. Partly because a bus can't maintain the schedule if it is stopping everywhere, so one would be limited stops, partly because of the passenger numbers.

Oh, and development work is progressing on the small modular reactors planned for Trawsfynydd so there is a prospect of freight returning to the line.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top