Avanti not selling the cheapest ticket available

[ianBR]

I generally use the Avanti app for train tickets as I find its one of the best designs and the easiest to use.

However if I put in Brighton to London Euston - Friday 15.09 it displays Anytime Day Single at £39.10 and says this is the CHEAPEST (no other ticket types are available)

If I put that into Southern it gives me a Brighton to London travelcard at £28.60.

Surely all retailers of rail tickets should have to display all available ticket types? I wonder how many people are paying over the odds as cheaper available tickets are not displayed!

 

[urbophile]

What would Brighton to St Pancras via Thameslink cost? No interchange hassle and an easy walk.

 

[Snow1964]

It's basically False Advertising to describe it as cheapest, it might be the cheapest of a subset they choose to retail, but it is not cheapest.

It would be like going into a handbag shop in Bond Street and being told nothing available under £100, but doesn't mean they can claim cheapest avaliable anywhere

 

[urbophile]

What would Brighton to St Pancras via Thameslink cost? No interchange hassle and an easy walk.

I've checked. £21.50.

 

[Haywain]

What would Brighton to St Pancras via Thameslink cost? No interchange hassle and an easy walk.

But that won't be shown as it was not the journey requested.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

It's basically False Advertising to describe it as cheapest, it might be the cheapest of a subset they choose to retail, but it is not cheapest.

It would be like going into a handbag shop in Bond Street and being told nothing available under £100, but doesn't mean they can claim cheapest avaliable anywhere

Avanti's "cheapest" is purely the cheapest of the list it shows you, not the possible cheapest, so quite similar to the handbag shop idea, except a "cheapest" tag flies between whichever one you're looking at is the cheapest

 

[ianBR]

But surely customers would assume that they are being shown the cheapest fare available? Or we now saying that you need to shop around between rail ticket retailers to know that you are actually getting the cheapest fare? Surely there is a central database of fares that all retailers are accessing and individual retailers should not be able to inflate their revenue by hiding tickets from view.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the expensive £39.10 Brighton to London (Euston) fare quoted is the one which includes a single onward journey to an underground/DLR station destination in Zones 1-6, irrespective of where on the LU/DLR system that actually is.

The Off Peak Day Single from Brighton to London Thameslink (route "not Underground") mentioned upthread by @urbophile and alighting at St. Pancras before walking across to Euston would indeed be significantly cheaper at £21.50.

 

[gg1]

It sounds much like the travel booking system my workplace uses, in my case if you enter Sandwell & Dudley to Waterloo, the ticket price is more expensive than Sandwell & Dudley to London zone 1. I suspect Avanti's system has the same booking engine in the background.

 

[Haywain]

Surely all retailers of rail tickets should have to display all available ticket types?

The result you see on Avanti is based on the single journey requested. Southern then offers you a Travelcard, which is actually a return ticket, but not all sites are set up to show return tickets in these circumstances. It is the cheapest single ticket available, it's just that there is a cheaper return for the same journey.

 

[4COR]

Presume the expensive £39.10 Brighton to London (Euston) fare quoted is the one which includes a single onward journey to an underground/DLR station destination in Zones 1-6, irrespective of where on the LU/DLR system that actually is.

Yep - £5.60 on top of the Brighton-London Terminals Anytime fare (there is no Any Permitted Off Peak Single Fare defined). I'm not quite sure either why it doesn't offer it as an Underground Zone 1 only fare which would "only" be £3 on top...

 

[urbophile]

But that won't be shown as it was not the journey requested.

Well no. But a helpful ticket office clerk might point it out as an alternative. Another reason for not scrapping them.

 

[Howardh]

I generally use the Avanti app for train tickets as I find its one of the best designs and the easiest to use.

I think the opposite, I find it rather difficult to use and try to avoid if at all possible!

Which site do forum members recommend as the best for giving you the cheapest fare for your selected journey + alternatives? In the OP's case, Brighton to Euston could be Thameslink, or via Victoria and change. I wouldn't use Avanti for that journey, probably Trainline (which does have splitsave to some degree) and then go to the actual TOC for the ticket/s to avoid charges? However (after putting in the journey) Trainline send you always via Victoria and not St Pancras + walk (or tube) which is annoying.

Which site gets it right??

 

[alistairlees]

I'm not quite sure either why it doesn't offer it as an Underground Zone 1 only fare which would "only" be £3 on top...

Because there is no such fare from Brighton…

 

[AndrewE]

Because there is no such fare from Brighton…

Wouldn't you normally expect this? It seems obviously useful to the public transport user... Can someone in the know explain why this isn't the case?

 

[Howardh]

Because there is no such fare from Brighton…

Surely there's a standard Brighton > Euston via London Bridge with the tube fare included? I've used that route several times but from destinations beyond Euston eg Manchester, and the cross-London tube fare (Maltese Cross??) included.

 

[Surreytraveller]

But that won't be shown as it was not the journey requested.

Well, it should be shown, as a walk at the other end should be part of the journey

 

[Haywain]

Well, it should be shown, as a walk at the other end should be part of the journey

You'd have to take that up with whoever decides what the fixed links are but a walk will rarely, if ever, be featured when other transport means are available.

 

[miklcct]

I have just tried putting into National Rail Enquiries Woking to Queens Park single, changing at Waterloo for the tube to Queens Park. The through rail fare (£17.90) is returned despite the fact that a Woking - U12 fare is cheaper (£17.20)!

Even National Rail Enquiries can't get it right.

 

[Watershed]

I have just tried putting into National Rail Enquiries Woking to Queens Park single, changing at Waterloo for the tube to Queens Park. The through rail fare (£17.90) is returned despite the fact that a Woking - U12 fare is cheaper (£17.20)!

Even National Rail Enquiries can't get it right.

That's a slightly different case, as it's about knowing that a fare to Zone U12 is valid (and cheaper) than a through rail fare - rather than here, where it's about the site seemingly defaulting to issuing a Zone U1256 fare as soon as the journey ends with a Tube leg.

But nevertheless you're correct to point out that lots of sites struggle with this sort of thing.

 

[alistairlees]

Wouldn't you normally expect this? It seems obviously useful to the public transport user... Can someone in the know explain why this isn't the case?

Surely there's a standard Brighton > Euston via London Bridge with the tube fare included? I've used that route several times but from destinations beyond Euston eg Manchester, and the cross-London tube fare (Maltese Cross??) included.

That's a slightly different case, as it's about knowing that a fare to Zone U12 is valid (and cheaper) than a through rail fare - rather than here, where it's about the site seemingly defaulting to issuing a Zone U1256 fare as soon as the journey ends with a Tube leg.

But nevertheless you're correct to point out that lots of sites struggle with this sort of thing.

Southern fares to London Zones U12 generally don't exist. For reasons that I have now forgotten, Southern have only set fares to London Zones U1256. I don't think there is any other TOC that has set its fares from outside London to London zonal destinations quite like this...

 

[Watershed]

Southern fares to London Zones U12 generally don't exist. For reasons that I have now forgotten, Southern have only set fares to London Zones U1256. I don't think there is any other TOC that has set its fares from outside London to London zonal destinations quite like this...

Indeed, though it's still possible to "create" a compound fare using a zonal add-on.

 

[urbophile]

You'd have to take that up with whoever decides what the fixed links are but a walk will rarely, if ever, be featured when other transport means are available.

I've seen fares from Mersyerail Northern line to Euston or other west coast destinations that include a walk between Liverpool Central and Lime Street, despite via Moorfields and the Wirral line being an acceptable (even the official) alternative.

 

[Adam Williams]

Indeed, though it's still possible to "create" a compound fare using a zonal add-on.

@alistairlees is correct to suggest that GTR/Southern seemingly wish to be treated differently in this respect, such that the £3 zonal add-on fare to U-Zone 1 isn't possible to retail in some ambiguously defined circumstances and U1256 must be retailed instead even if the passenger only wants to travel within zone 1. This does not necessarily match the behaviour of some journey planners and ticket issuing systems currently in production today.

This is a dark, dingy corner of fares and ticketing where dragons lurk around every corner and fares data/concrete specifications do not exist. Proceed with caution.

 

[paul1609]

if this is actually a journey you wish to make and you can be sure to depart Victoria by 16.15 Id use contactless on the Victoria Line £2.70 and then buy a super off peak day return (Rte Any permitted) from Brighton to London Victoria (buy it online and pick it up TOD) for £22.50. throw the outward portion in the bin.
Because of the Victoria Line station to station time of 6 mins and the high frequency its nearly always (99%) quicker to go to Victoria and pick up a train there even if you change to a Thameslink train at Gatwick or East Croydon.
Off Peak from St Pancras there are only 2 tph direct to Brighton in 1 hr 18 mins the rest are around the 1h30 mins. In most cases you will be at Victoria from Euston in the same time it takes you to walk to St Pancras and get on the Thameslink Platforms.

 

[Haywain]

I've seen fares from Mersyerail Northern line to Euston or other west coast destinations that include a walk between Liverpool Central and Lime Street, despite via Moorfields and the Wirral line being an acceptable (even the official) alternative.

The data has a walking link defined between Lime Street and Central but doesn't have one between St Pancras and Euston.

 

[CyrusWuff]

@alistairlees is correct to suggest that GTR/Southern seemingly wish to be treated differently in this respect, such that the £3 zonal add-on fare to U-Zone 1 isn't possible to retail in some ambiguously defined circumstances and U1256 must be retailed instead even if the passenger only wants to travel within zone 1. This does not necessarily match the behaviour of some journey planners and ticket issuing systems currently in production today.

This is a dark, dingy corner of fares and ticketing where dragons lurk around every corner and fares data/concrete specifications do not exist. Proceed with caution.

The Southern policy is documented in Knowledgebase, and digging in the archives shows it's been the case since at least NFM01 (September 2008.)

Southern 'Out-boundary' stations issue through tickets on the ‘Train Tube’ basis. For example, tickets with availability in Zone 1 will be issued to London Underground Zones 1-6 (U1256). Passengers interchanging at Balham and not wishing to travel via Zone 1 should be issued with a ticket to London Underground Zones 2-6 (U2356) or London Underground Zones 3-6 (U3456) as appropriate.

Special arrangements also apply to West Anglia services, where you can change to LU at Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, or Walthamstow Central, so tickets to Zone 1 stations should be issued to Zones U123; and similarly for c2c, Great Eastern, and Great Northern services, where you can change at stations in Zone 2 (Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Limehouse, Stratford, or West Ham.)

 

[Adam Williams]

The Southern policy is documented in Knowledgebase, and digging in the archives shows it's been the case since at least NFM01 (September 2008.)

I think "documented" is a pretty generous word, here.

When do you think the Southern policy should apply, out of interest? Should it be based on flow fare-setter? Southern operated stations?

 

[TUC]

Part of the problem is that many booking sites do not allow 'London' to be selected as a destination, which would enable the cheapest option, regardless of which London station, to be identified. Most have a 'London Terminals' option, but that is quite a technical, passenger-unfriendly term that people would not automatically think to look for.

 

[4COR]

Because there is no such fare from Brighton…

That I can see, but my question was why it should create a compound fare with U1256 rather than U1 - but I see the text in the iKB:

Southern 'Out-boundary' stations issue through tickets on the ‘Train Tube’ basis. For example, tickets with availability in Zone 1 will be issued to London Underground Zones 1-6 (U1256). Passengers interchanging at Balham and not wishing to travel via Zone 1 should be issued with a ticket to London Underground Zones 2-6 (U2356) or London Underground Zones 3-6 (U3456) as appropriate.

so presume this is where it stems from. I would have the same questions as @Adam Williams above!

Part of the problem is that many booking sites do not allow 'London' to be selected as a destination, which would enable the cheapest option, regardless of which London station, to be identified. Most have a 'London Terminals' option, but that is quite a technical, passenger-unfriendly term that people would not automatically think to look for.

Not only that, but in this case, there are also different fares for Brighton to London Terminals and Brighton to London Victoria, which can make a few pounds difference when creating a compound fare with a single - and here, on Avanti, it doesn't seem possible to get the latter (regardless of both being more than the relevant Travel card). It is a case of choosing the right ticket retailer, or knowing what you want and asking a ticket office for the correct ticket.