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Avanti not selling the cheapest ticket available

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Mcr Warrior

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As a side observation, it's bizarrely still slightly cheaper at £37.20 to buy an Anytime Day Single (route "✠Any Permitted") from Brighton to South Hampstead (first station out of London Euston on the Overground towards Watford Junction), before throwing the partly-used ticket in the bin, after exiting the Underground at... Euston!
 
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gordonthemoron

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I noticed ages ago that Avanti does not show cheapest Thameslink tickets, from Bedford, Flitwick, Luton Airport Parkway. However London Northwestern and Thameslink do, so that’s commission they’ve lost, not that they’re bothered. FWIW Avanti also won’t sell tickets on other TOCs on days when they haven’t loaded their own fares ‍♀️
 

alistairlees

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That I can see, but my question was why it should create a compound fare with U1256 rather than U1
It's a fare that's already in the data, and the only (non-Travelcard) one that is valid for the journey. No 'compound fare' has been created.
 

CyrusWuff

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I think "documented" is a pretty generous word, here.

When do you think the Southern policy should apply, out of interest? Should it be based on flow fare-setter? Southern operated stations?
I'm assuming it applies to flows where GTR's Southern brand is the fare setter, but can't remember the logic behind their decision (which was possibly mentioned in Newsrail Express or a Retail Brief at the time.)

Similarly, journeys to Zone 1 stations from c2c, Great Eastern, Great Northern, and West Anglia stations where you can change onto LU/DLR services at stations in Zones 2 or 3 are priced to Zone U12 or Zone U123.

Obviously there's nothing to physically prevent a retailer from creating a summated fare, it's just that the relevant TOCs don't price their own. Gotta love consistency(!)
 

miklcct

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Special arrangements also apply to West Anglia services, where you can change to LU at Seven Sisters, Tottenham Hale, or Walthamstow Central, so tickets to Zone 1 stations should be issued to Zones U123; and similarly for c2c, Great Eastern, and Great Northern services, where you can change at stations in Zone 2 (Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Limehouse, Stratford, or West Ham.)
Why isn't the same arrangement extended to South Western Railway services, where you can change to LU at Wimbledon, Chiltern Railways services where you can change to LU at Amersham, London Northwestern Railway services where you can change to LU at Harrow & Wealdstone, or Elizabeth line services where you can change to LU at Ealing Broadway?
 

Haywain

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or Elizabeth line services where you can change to LU at Ealing Broadway?
In the case of the Elizabeth line, because it's a National Rail service between Ealing Broadway and Paddington.
 

paul1609

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@alistairlees is correct to suggest that GTR/Southern seemingly wish to be treated differently in this respect, such that the £3 zonal add-on fare to U-Zone 1 isn't possible to retail in some ambiguously defined circumstances and U1256 must be retailed instead even if the passenger only wants to travel within zone 1. This does not necessarily match the behaviour of some journey planners and ticket issuing systems currently in production today.

This is a dark, dingy corner of fares and ticketing where dragons lurk around every corner and fares data/concrete specifications do not exist. Proceed with caution.
Its probably not fair to associate the problem with Govia and its various brands with this situation. The situation has existed since the era of Connex and First Capital Connect if not earlier. All of GTRs proposals for fares reform in the current franchise (and from the independent Williams report on the Brighton Mainline) have been rejected by the DFT who have held the revenue risk since 2013.
 

Alex365Dash

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Why isn't the same arrangement extended to South Western Railway services, where you can change to LU at Wimbledon, Chiltern Railways services where you can change to LU at Amersham, London Northwestern Railway services where you can change to LU at Harrow & Wealdstone, or Elizabeth line services where you can change to LU at Ealing Broadway?
Is there much point if there’s already LU inter-availability?
 

Adam Williams

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Its probably not fair to associate the problem with Govia and its various brands with this situation. The situation has existed since the era of Connex and First Capital Connect if not earlier. All of GTRs proposals for fares reform in the current franchise (and from the independent Williams report on the Brighton Mainline) have been rejected by the DFT who have held the revenue risk since 2013.
I appreciate that lots of TOCs, GTR included, have their hands-tied in terms of FTR reform things they might like to do due to politics, but they could at least work with RDG to document the current status quo properly. A throwaway comment in the iKB isn't really good enough for an implementer.

I wouldn't necessarily mind if it weren't the case that in my experience, GTR staff were quick to accuse retailers of "doing it wrong", penalise customers (who bought from an accredited retailer and were issued with an itinerary) and then go complaining to TIS accreditation at RDG about it. Doesn't really give me the best impression of the operator.
 

Hadders

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I refer you to post #18 which you originally replied to.
Interestingly St Pancras to Euston is an out of station interchange for PAYG travel on Oyster/contactless but there is no fixed link for it when it comes to National Rail cross London journeys.
 

paul1609

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I appreciate that lots of TOCs, GTR included, have their hands-tied in terms of FTR reform things they might like to do due to politics, but they could at least work with RDG to document the current status quo properly. A throwaway comment in the iKB isn't really good enough for an implementer.

I wouldn't necessarily mind if it weren't the case that in my experience, GTR staff were quick to accuse retailers of "doing it wrong", penalise customers (who bought from an accredited retailer and were issued with an itinerary) and then go complaining to TIS accreditation at RDG about it. Doesn't really give me the best impression of the operator.
to be honest if all rail revenue risk in the future sits with the taxpayer (as it has done with the GTR franchises for over 10 years now), , I don't really understand why there is any need for independent retailers. You certainly shouldn't be paying retailers to come up with schemes such as split ticketing which is reducing overall income and increasing taxpayer support. To be clear I don't have a problem with punters coming up with split savings it just seem bizarre to me to be paying retailers commission to reduce revenue.
 

Hadders

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to be honest if all rail revenue risk in the future sits with the taxpayer (as it has done with the GTR franchises for over 10 years now), , I don't really understand why there is any need for independent retailers. You certainly shouldn't be paying retailers to come up with schemes such as split ticketing which is reducing overall income and increasing taxpayer support. To be clear I don't have a problem with punters coming up with split savings it just seem bizarre to me to be paying retailers commission to reduce revenue.
Independent retailers drive innovation. While there’s stuff not to like about Trainline there’s much to admire about their marketing and easy to use apps. This would never happen under a government run system - we’d have a 1990s style website at best.
 

Adam Williams

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to be honest if all rail revenue risk in the future sits with the taxpayer (as it has done with the GTR franchises for over 10 years now), , I don't really understand why there is any need for independent retailers. You certainly shouldn't be paying retailers to come up with schemes such as split ticketing which is reducing overall income and increasing taxpayer support. To be clear I don't have a problem with punters coming up with split savings it just seem bizarre to me to be paying retailers commission to reduce revenue.
https://issuu.com/independentrailretailers/docs/irr_supplement_fa_no_date_1_ makes the case better than I could write in a short forum post
 

Mcr Warrior

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So, is the conclusion that Avanti HAVE sold the cheapest through ticket available for Brighton to London Euston, as it's the only one actually available, if one excludes split tickets, more expensive travelcards, or tickets to nearby, but nevertheless alternative, destinations?
 

Alex365Dash

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So, is the conclusion that Avanti HAVE sold the cheapest through ticket available for Brighton to London Euston, as it's the only one actually available, if one excludes split tickets, more expensive travelcards, or tickets to nearby, but nevertheless alternative, destinations?
Avanti excluded less expensive Travelcards, which should be the cheapest option they offer!

No retailer offers tickets to alternative destinations not associated with the destination station - I don’t believe this would pass accreditation.

Only some third-party retailers offer split ticketing. I’m not counting LNER‘s SmartSave which is essentially a split ticketing price guarantee with how it works, except that third-party retailers find cheaper splits than LNER so actual split ticketing can still be cheaper.

For reasons beyond me, only some retailers offer a Travelcard as the cheapest fare when you ask for a single rather than a return.
 

redreni

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So, is the conclusion that Avanti HAVE sold the cheapest through ticket available for Brighton to London Euston, as it's the only one actually available, if one excludes split tickets, more expensive travelcards, or tickets to nearby, but nevertheless alternative, destinations?
That's not the conclusion I would draw.

When I specified 3pm on a Friday as the departure time and asked the forum's ticketing site for a single from Brighton to London Euston, after I filtered out cheaper Advance fares it immediately returned a super off-peak single (route any permitted) to London Underground and DLR zone 1 with an itinerary for the 15:09 as the OP asked, changing at Victoria, for £25.40. That's the fare, isn't it?

I've read all the detailed information above about why various retailers don't sell that ticket and why Southern has a weird policy of charging people for every zone they might conceivably travel through on the Underground and DLR, even if they don't want to travel through most of them. In my view, none of that invalidates the OP's accurate observation that Avanti's website (and plenty of other websites and apps as well, no doubt) would have overcharged him by £13.70 (or a tidy 54%) if he had bought the ticket that they assured him was the cheapest available.
 
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CyrusWuff

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Avanti excluded less expensive Travelcards, which should be the cheapest option they offer!

No retailer offers tickets to alternative destinations not associated with the destination station - I don’t believe this would pass accreditation.

For reasons beyond me, only some retailers offer a Travelcard as the cheapest fare when you ask for a single rather than a return.
I suspect it's a question of interpretation. Logically (for some values of logically) if someone requests a Single journey (as in the original example), they shouldn't be offered a Travelcard as that's a Return product.

In practice, of course, a member of Ticket Office staff would almost certainly offer the Travelcard on price grounds.

They may even offer a summated fare to Zone 1, but that's less likely as it would require a manual override as GTR only price to Zones 1-6 rather than just Zone 1.

Similarly, for a Return journey you should be offered two Singles where that's cheaper than a Return. For example: An Anytime Day Return from London to Oxford is £77.30. However, an Anytime Day Single from London to Oxford is £39.20, and an Off-Peak Day Single from Oxford to London is £31.70, for a total of £70.90.
 

redreni

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to be honest if all rail revenue risk in the future sits with the taxpayer (as it has done with the GTR franchises for over 10 years now), , I don't really understand why there is any need for independent retailers. You certainly shouldn't be paying retailers to come up with schemes such as split ticketing which is reducing overall income and increasing taxpayer support. To be clear I don't have a problem with punters coming up with split savings it just seem bizarre to me to be paying retailers commission to reduce revenue.
Not everyone agrees with the government that passengers pay too little, and taxpayers too much, towards the cost of running the railways.

Arguably the split ticket retailers are driving additional sales as well as just enabling passengers to access cheaper fares, in which case both those factors will affect revenue. There are a number of journeys I've made by rail recently where I absolutely wouldn't have paid the non-split fare - I would have used an alternative mode or not travelled.
 

Mikw

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I dream of a world when you put your journey in and you get the cheapest fare everytime. with no pitfalls or complications
 

kieron

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And the trains then all ran to time, with a seat for everyone who wanted one...

As mentioned, a web site which gave the cheapest fare every time would never pass accreditation.
 

4COR

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It's a fare that's already in the data, and the only (non-Travelcard) one that is valid for the journey. No 'compound fare' has been created.
Ah - I presumed (wrongly) that it was creating the equivalent compound (from the Any Permitted to London Terminals + £5.60). They are exactly the same price (probably for this reason that it forces the U1256 to be sold instead).
 
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