Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Bikeman78]

The 319s are equally old and worn out, and have the same traction motors as the 769s, equally prone to flashover. Yet Northern manages to diagram 12 of its 15 319s to be in traffic Mon-Sat.

The 769's woes cannot all be inherited from the 319.

100% agree. The majority of the faults are not the old worn out bits.

 

[AM9]

100% agree. The majority of the faults are not the old worn out bits.

Nor were they the major new bits, i.e. the prime movers, the two diesel engines and their rotary generators. It was the integration:
a) into the restricted spce between the bogies in a 20m MkIII structure - maybe causing some of the overheating issues
b) the control system managing the two generator outputs into the traction electronics and the handover from DEMU mode to EMU mode (and vice versa)
In the big picture of the units' development, those design weaknesses were comparatively minor in terms of work content to rectify, but both other matters both inside the project and outside construed to make a proper fix difficult and ultimately too late to bother with.
I don't know how many miles the 319s clocked up over their primary deployment on Thameslink,* but given the novel nature of the EMU's traction design, the survived as well as any UK unit would when worked that hard. I think that the programme has generated a lot of useful information about Bi-mode units deployed in a suburban role precisely because of the nature and frequency of their failures. There's not much knowledge gained from from a design that never fails.

* maybe sombody here knows the total mileage of various classes or fleets.

 

[Greybeard33]

From RTT, 769 availability has again not been good this week.

On Monday, only two units were out. 769448 worked diagram AN291, while 769458 started the day on AN294 and swapped to AN292 mid-morning, with both stabling at Springs Branch.

On Tuesday, 769450 came out of Allerton Depot to join them, working AN291. 769458 remained on AN292, while 769448 worked AN294 all day, finishing at the depot while the other two stabled at Springs Branch.

On Wednesday, 769424 appeared from the depot to work AN291. 769458 remained on AN292; 769450 started the day on AN294, but swapped to AN293 mid-afternoon, thereby stabling at Springs Branch with the other two instead of returning to the depot.

On Thursday, 769448 reappeared from the depot, so for the first time this week the day started with all four 769 diagrams actually worked by 769s. Unfortunately this was too good to last long; 769448 failed at Wigan Wallgate at 0650 while working 2W01 to Southport:

Realtime Trains | 2W01 0607 Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate | 15/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 2W01 0607 departure from Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate on 15/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

150143 took over the rest of diagram AN291. 769458 is worked AN292, 769450 AN293, and 769424 AN294, except for the final ECS working to the depot.

On Friday, 769434 came out of the depot to work AN291, with 769450 on AN292, 769424 on AN293 and 769458 on AN294. But at 0842 769434 failed at Wigan Wallgate "due to a problem with the traction equipment", while working 2O72 to Oxford Road.

Realtime Trains | 2O72 0805 Southport to Wigan Wallgate | 16/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 2O72 0805 departure from Southport to Wigan Wallgate on 16/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

150143 again stepped into the breach to take over the diagram. Mid-afternoon it swapped to AN294, with 769458 moving to AN291.

So on no day during the week did the 769s manage to work all four of their diagrams all day without a failure. With two of the five units in traffic failing during the week, reliability as well as availability is apparently still dire.

 

[Wyrleybart]

Wondering if those MANs in their subframes are suffering from pollen

 

[Mordac]

Hopefully when Stalybridge and Wigan are wired and they'll only have to run in diesel between Wigan and Southport, they can get a bit more reliability out of them.

 

[Greybeard33]

Hopefully when Stalybridge and Wigan are wired and they'll only have to run in diesel between Wigan and Southport, they can get a bit more reliability out of them.

The 769s will not be able to use the wires west of Ince, because Wigan Wallgate will not be wired and they are not allowed to change power modes between stations.

But I believe the 769s' days will be numbered, once 323s are able to operate from Wigan North Western to Stalybridge via Bolton.

 

[plugwash]

Hopefully when Stalybridge and Wigan are wired

AIUI there are no plans to wire Wigan Wallgate.

So if they do continue to run 769s to southport on the current route they would have to switch to diesel at Ince.

My understanding though is that the plans are to divert the Bolton to Wigan services to North Western and run them with EMUs, it didn't seem clear what the plans to serving southport were going to be.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

AIUI there are no plans to wire Wigan Wallgate.

Indeed there are not.

So if they do continue to run 769s to southport on the current route they would have to switch to diesel at Ince.

Or Hindley, there's an odd pattern where only some stop at Ince.

My understanding though is that the plans are to divert the Bolton to Wigan services to North Western and run them with EMUs, it didn't seem clear what the plans to serving southport were going to be.

Yes I'd heard similar.

 

[Mordac]

Fair enough, I completely misunderstood what the extent of the electrification was going to be then!

 

[507020]

they are not allowed to change power modes between stations.

I can assure you that I have been on 769s for the power changeover sat outside Manchester Victoria twice, on both sides of the station.

My understanding though is that the plans are to divert the Bolton to Wigan services to North Western and run them with EMUs, it didn't seem clear what the plans to serving southport were going to be.

My money is on an additional fast Atherton path, perhaps calling only at Ince (for power changeover), Hindley and either Daisy Hill or Atherton before Salford Crescent, which is looking necessary if 323s take the paths via Bolton.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

My money is on an additional fast Atherton path, perhaps calling only at Ince (for power changeover), Hindley and either Daisy Hill or Atherton before Salford Crescent, which is looking necessary if 323s take the paths via Bolton.

Why not a stopping path?
Would be much more useful to the people on the line.

 

[bengley]

I can assure you that I have been on 769s for the power changeover sat outside Manchester Victoria twice, on both sides of the station.

My money is on an additional fast Atherton path, perhaps calling only at Ince (for power changeover), Hindley and either Daisy Hill or Atherton before Salford Crescent, which is looking necessary if 323s take the paths via Bolton.

There's no way Northern would stop trains at Ince just for the sake of running on Electric mode from Ince to Hindley. It would be diesel throughout if such a service operated via Atherton

 

[175001]

I can assure you that I have been on 769s for the power changeover sat outside Manchester Victoria twice, on both sides of the station.

We are only allowed to change over at precise locations and at a stand in stations. Drivers should not be be doing it at unauthorised locations.

 

[Greybeard33]

There's no way Northern would stop trains at Ince just for the sake of running on Electric mode from Ince to Hindley. It would be diesel throughout if such a service operated via Atherton

I doubt Northern will use 769s on the Atherton line. Better to use more reliable DMUs. I think the 769s will be following their TfW and GWR siblings to the scrapyard as soon as EMUs can take over the Westhougton line. Thereby saving all the ongoing traincrew and maintenance engineer training costs of the micro fleet.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I doubt Northern will use 769s on the Atherton line. Better to use more reliable DMUs. I think the 769s will be following their TfW and GWR siblings to the scrapyard as soon as EMUs can take over the Westhougton line.

This is what I expect to happen too, especially with the 319s going soon will be even more of a microfleet.
The 769 feels like a good concept that just went wrong.

 

[Jamesrob637]

They guaranteed 4-car on Southport to Alderley Edge until December last year
When they ran!

 

[AMD]

For clarity the 769s are on lease until 2025.
Current issues stem from heat matters, a software change was done last year which has helped, tho still a few problems out there.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

For clarity the 769s are on lease until 2025.

That connects decently well for them to be replaced once Wigan to Bolton electrification is done and 323s start.

 

[Geeves]

On the refurbishment thread DiligentDave posted that the 769s are getting the digital mods but the 319s aren't which to me says they will be here working with the 323s rather than being replaced by them

 

[pokemonsuper9]

On the refurbishment thread DiligentDave posted that the 769s are getting the digital mods but the 319s aren't which to me says they will be here working with the 323s rather than being replaced by them

Quote attached:

The Class 769 digital program starts in September this year, with the cascaded 156's running alongside starting in October (possibly during refresh but still to be awarded).
The Class 319's will not get digital trains fitted as they are all going off-lease at the end of this year.

The question of the 323s working alongside them has been brought up here before, but it certainly leaves some questions
1. Where? Is it worth running 769s as a bi-mode on the Atherton line when they'd only be on electric for the very few stops after Salford Crescent?
2. Is it worth keeping 8 trains as a microfleet? With the 319s going by the end of the year, will maintenance of them become more annoying financially?
and that's not all of the questions, it's just the ones I thought of quickest.

 

[stevieinselby]

Quote attached:

The question of the 323s working alongside them has been brought up here before, but it certainly leaves some questions
1. Where? Is it worth running 769s as a bi-mode on the Atherton line when they'd only be on electric for the very few stops after Salford Crescent?
2. Is it worth keeping 8 trains as a microfleet? With the 319s going by the end of the year, will maintenance of them become more annoying financially?
and that's not all of the questions, it's just the ones I thought of quickest.

I guess the counterpoint would be ... what else do you do to plug the hole in the fleet? We don't exactly have a surfeit of serviceable DMUs knocking about. Yes, the probably could get some more Civity units from CAF to replace them, but that means buying more new diesel units, which is something that we really shouldn't be doing, especially with Northern having plans for a replacement for the 150s now in the pipeline – but I don't know what else they could get in the short term that wouldn't raise other questions.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I guess the counterpoint would be ... what else do you do to plug the hole in the fleet?

The 323s are the main replacing force, possibly EMR 156s could be considered as part of this too.

 

[jonesy3001]

Been reading on the wnxx forums that northern have been offered the GWR 769s, can anyone shed any light on that.
Please.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Been reading on the wnxx forums that northern have been offered the GWR 769s

"Offered" would be quite easy compared to Northern accepting the offer or wanting them.
Wouldn't any Rolling Stock company want to offer their trains to anyone who would lease them?

 

[AMD]

Offered, yes.
Taken, no.

 

[Geeves]

It's filtering down to depot manager level that there will be no more training on 319s and 769s with all focus going (shortly) on to 323s for all the depots that currently don't sign them. Obviously take that as you will with regards to upgrades on the 319s or if that plan has suddenly changed.

 

[AMD]

Obviously take that as you will with regards to upgrades on the 319s or if that plan has suddenly changed

319s are going, as soon as the WM 323s transfer across. Training on 769s is continuing.

 

[175001]

It's filtering down to depot manager level that there will be no more training on 319s and 769s with all focus going (shortly) on to 323s for all the depots that currently don't sign them. Obviously take that as you will with regards to upgrades on the 319s or if that plan has suddenly changed.

Oh great more work (or at least taken off awful jobs to cover) for us who sign them then....

 

[Geeves]

Oh great more work (or at least taken off awful jobs to cover) for us who sign them then....

You will definitely be driving 769s till the absolute death

 

[Wyrleybart]

You will definitely be driving 769s till the absolute death

Not really surprising seeing as the WMR training on the Birmingham Cross City lines has yet to take place and the 730/0s are replacing the LNR 319s at the moment.

Benefit = the 730/0s will be fully run in when WMR eventually start to use them in the West Mids
Disbenefit = Leaf fall season approaching so let us hope WMR introduction on the Cross City lines is well after Jan 2024, after the railway tends to return to normal. The Cross City "wacky races" timetable is normally eased every Autumn and I expect 2023 won't be an exception.

So I cannot see ex WMR 323s moving north for best part of 12 months yet which means Northern 319s will continue in service. or they will temporarily ease their service.