Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[D365]

wikipedia has often claimed that several types of BR EMU are compatible, merely because they share the use of Tightlock couplers.

 

[Bikeman78]

Which still renders them incompatible.

Otherwise, we'd have seen 323s rescuing failed 319s and 769s.

To my knowledge, that's never happened. For a reason.

A 323 has occasionally rescued a 319 or vice versa. I don't have dates and times but I'm sure it has happened.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 May 2023 ==

wikipedia has often claimed that several types of BR EMU are compatible, merely because they share the use of Tightlock couplers.

For the most part, everything from 313 to 322 is compatible, in terms of power and brake release. For example, 317s have worked with 313s to Hornsey and 315s to Ilford. They have worked with 322s in passenger service. Not sure about 321s but no reason why it wouldn't work in theory.

 

[507020]

They've only been cleared on the routes they have booked work or empty stock moves over. Reliability issues and there not being enough of them about to perform a rescue. Network Rail want to keep them off the WCML as much as possible. They would only be able to run in diesel mode that way anyway so the fuel tanks probably wouldn't last a day.

769s are cleared both on the WCML and Chat Moss, having run ECS from both Wigan North Western and Manchester Victoria to Allerton via Newton-le-Willows, not St Helens Central, however this was in electric mode throughout.

Regardless, it was always out of the question for 769s to run in service this way, despite the significant mileage under the wires, for a start there is nowhere for them to changeover and it’s too much of a risk for one to fail on one of the busier L&NW lines, than on the closed L&Y lines.

With the 2 pairs of 158s freed up by truncating the Wigan - Leeds service to Victoria due to the same engineering works being perfect for this use with their 90mph capability, they are what is being is being used. What I don’t understand is the booked dwell at Wigan Wallgate, rather than just continuing to Southport at odd times.

Mixed consists of 769s, 319s and 323s can often be seen coupled together on Allerton depot for depot movements, with probably only a single pantograph raised.

 

[M60lad]

Well I might be wrong but it looks as if not all the 769s will be heading back to Allerton during the Wigan blockade as there was one last night stabled up in its usual place in the sidings normally used for 195s nearer to the Metrolink lines at Newton Heath Depot, there seems to be one stabled in the same place at Newton Heath most weekends for some reason.

 

[Gricer99]

They have been cutting the embankment away and building the extension to Platform 1 this week while the trains have not been running.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They have been cutting the embankment away and building the extension to Platform 1 this week while the trains have not been running.

What station ?.

 

[Geeves]

I am guessing Hindley?

 

[507020]

I am guessing Hindley?

Well it could have been either Hindley or Westhoughton.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What happened with these in the end? There were rumours the other day that they'd all suddenly been stopped?

 

[jfollows]

What happened with these in the end? There were rumours the other day that they'd all suddenly been stopped?

Post 6587 above says

That's only because of the Hindley engineering works, and them not being permitted to run via Chat Moss. They are expected to be back in service on 15th May.

and RTT shows 769448 on 2O71 07:05 Southport to Manchester Oxford Road today (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y43260/2023-05-15/detailed#allox_id=0)

 

[175001]

Normal service resumed post blockade

 

[diligentdave]

Which still renders them incompatible.

Otherwise, we'd have seen 323s rescuing failed 319s and 769s.

To my knowledge, that's never happened. For a reason.

Class 323's can rescue 319's both mechanically and electrically. It's been tested and works. 323's cannot rescue 769's electrically but can mechanically, same as 319's cannot rescue 769's electrically but only mechanically.

 

[Greybeard33]

Class 323's can rescue 319's both mechanically and electrically. It's been tested and works. 323's cannot rescue 769's electrically but can mechanically, same as 319's cannot rescue 769's electrically but only mechanically.

I remember an incident where a 319 sat down in Piccadilly throat with a failed motor-alternator and flat batteries, causing major disruption. Initially a 323 tried to rescue it, but was unable to release the brakes. Eventually another 319 was sent and performed the rescue successfully.

 

[Greybeard33]

From looking at the Northern LTP unit diagrams for May - December 2023, I see that only four 769s are now booked to be in traffic Mon-Sat, none on Sundays. Two units are on exams at Allerton and two units on maintenance at Wolverton. The rest of the Southport - Stalybridge and Oxford Road services are booked to be worked by 4-car 15x formations.

May 2023 Unit Diagrams - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

Please could you provide me with the unit diagrams for the upcoming May 2023 timetable, Yours faithfully, Jonathan Sculley

www.whatdotheyknow.com

Presumably the 769 fleet is being rotated through Wolverton two units at a time. Does anyone know the purpose of this work programme?

Taking Friday 9th June and Saturday 10th June as a random sample, RTT shows that on each day 769 diagram AN292 was worked by a 150+156 combo, so only three 769s started the day in traffic. On Friday these were 769448, 458 and 450 and on Saturday 769431, 458 and 450. But on Saturday 769431, on diagram AN291, failed at Wallgate at 1505 while working 2W81 from Oxford Road, "due to a problem with the train". A two-car 150 subsequently picked up the remainder of this diagram.

Realtime Trains | 2W18 1427 Manchester Oxford Road to Wigan Wallgate | 10/06/2023

Real-time train running information for 2W18 1427 departure from Manchester Oxford Road to Wigan Wallgate on 10/06/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Following return of the GWR and TfW fleets to Porterbrook, Northern's eight 769s are the last remaining examples of the class still in revenue service. Is there any prospect that they will ever achieve satisfactory levels of availability and reliability?

 

[thealexweb]

With Manchester to Stalybridge being wired they'll need to do fewer power change overs a day. Surely this will help with their reliability.

 

[Halish Railway]

With Manchester to Stalybridge being wired they'll need to do fewer power change overs a day. Surely this will help with their reliability.

As well as not having to thrash the Diesel engines up the incline from Manchester Victoria to Ashton. Once that happens the only inclines they'd encounter on diesel are those between Bolton and Wigan.

 

[craigybagel]

But how often under the current diagrams do they visit Stalybridge? Are they not mostly used on the Oxford Road (formerly Alderley Edge) services?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

But how often under the current diagrams do they visit Stalybridge? Are they not mostly used on the Oxford Road (formerly Alderley Edge) services?

The way the diagrams work Monday-Friday is they do an Oxford road run then one Stalybridge run
All 4 diagrams go to Oxford Road twice and Stalybridge twice Monday-Friday

Saturdays are different with AN292 doing 2 Oxford Road runs in a row, but still somewhat follow the rule.
Saturdays:
AN291 - 2 Stalybridge, 1 Oxford Road
AN292 - 2 Stalybridge, 3 Oxford Road
AN293 and 294 - 2 Stalybridge, 2 Oxford Road

 

[Geeves]

As well as not having to thrash the Diesel engines up the incline from Manchester Victoria to Ashton. Once that happens the only inclines they'd encounter on diesel are those between Bolton and Wigan.

The engines are working to generate a smooth power supply to the motors so I don't think it's possible to thrash a 769 so to speak. The power requested from the cab doesn't go directly into moving the train like a regular DMU. I'm sure there is a better technical explanation

Less power mode changes are definitely good but there are lots of other things that brake on a 769 besides that. You can't change the fact that the trains are old and worn out.

 

[craigybagel]

The way the diagrams work Monday-Friday is they do an Oxford road run then one Stalybridge run
All 4 diagrams go to Oxford Road twice and Stalybridge twice Monday-Friday

Saturdays are different with AN292 doing 2 Oxford Road runs in a row, but still somewhat follow the rule.
Saturdays:
AN291 - 2 Stalybridge, 1 Oxford Road
AN292 - 2 Stalybridge, 3 Oxford Road
AN293 and 294 - 2 Stalybridge, 2 Oxford Road

Thanks. IIRC the diagrams didn't use to interwork in Southport when services ran through to Alderley Edge.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Thanks. IIRC the diagrams didn't use to interwork in Southport when services ran through to Alderley Edge.

Indeed they didn't, found last year's diagrams here

 

[Greybeard33]

With Manchester to Stalybridge being wired they'll need to do fewer power change overs a day. Surely this will help with their reliability.

It was reported last year (post #6523) that the power changeover software has been upgraded to fix the previous issues of failure during changeover. There is no power changeover at Wigan, where 769431 failed on Saturday.

 

[175001]

Thrash a 769 and you have a motor flashover..

 

[skyhigh]

Presumably the 769 fleet is being rotated through Wolverton two units at a time. Does anyone know the purpose of this work programme?

Cab air con and digital mods I think, from what I remember.

 

[Greybeard33]

You can't change the fact that the trains are old and worn out.

Thrash a 769 and you have a motor flashover..

The 319s are equally old and worn out, and have the same traction motors as the 769s, equally prone to flashover. Yet Northern manages to diagram 12 of its 15 319s to be in traffic Mon-Sat.

The 769's woes cannot all be inherited from the 319.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Jun 2023 ==

Cab air con and digital mods I think, from what I remember.

Ah, thanks.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 769's woes cannot all be inherited from the 319.

Possibly a little too speculative/anecdotal for some, but MAN engined vehicles aren't exactly viewed as beacons of reliability in the road transport sectors...

 

[childwallblues]

I have travelled on a few Class 769s in recent weeks and they must get up to 90mph between Bolton and Salford Crescent. On diesel at the moment with no stop at Hindley they get a fair speed up towards Wigan.

 

[craigybagel]

I have travelled on a few Class 769s in recent weeks and they must get up to 90mph between Bolton and Salford Crescent. On diesel at the moment with no stop at Hindley they get a fair speed up towards Wigan.

Have they been authorised for that? When first introduced NR wouldn't let them run at MU speeds, so they were limited to 75mph on that section.

 

[D365]

The 319s are equally old and worn out, and have the same traction motors as the 769s, equally prone to flashover.

Not just the same motors - in AC mode, a 769 is a 319.

 

[175001]

The 319s are equally old and worn out, and have the same traction motors as the 769s, equally prone to flashover. Yet Northern manages to diagram 12 of its 15 319s to be in traffic Mon-Sat.

Which is why we treat them exactly the same.

As someone who signs both traction, we are now constantly being monitored to ensure that we use the power correctly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jun 2023 ==

I have travelled on a few Class 769s in recent weeks and they must get up to 90mph between Bolton and Salford Crescent. On diesel at the moment with no stop at Hindley they get a fair speed up towards Wigan.

No. Still restricted to 75mph.

A recent safety brief claimed we can do 80 when the differential speed is higher than 75 but we've not seen anything official off Network Rail so we still do 75mph