Trivia: Settlements that perhaps should be in a different local authority

[Dai Corner]

The Newport built-up area extends far outside the city boundary as far as Blackwood Ystrad Mynach and Bargoed in Caerphilly County Borough and Abersyychan, Pontypool and Cwmbran in Torfaen. It's the 26th largest in the UK ,just behind Reading, Hull and Preston and larger than Swansea, Derby and Plymouth.

 

[DunsBus]

Haltwhistle, in western Northumberland has more in common with Carlisle than with Newcastle and is closer to the former. Just west of the town the postcode area changes (Newcastle, NE to Carlisle, CA) with the county boundary a few miles beyond there. It would surely be more logical to include Haltwhistle in Cumberland given its ties with Carlisle.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Bottesford might get a more frequent train service if it joined Notts.

 

[LUYMun]

A pie in the sky idea, but I might think Farnborough and Aldershot should move into Surrey County Council.

 

[Some guy]

Skelmersdale should be in Merseyside. It's a Liverpool overspill town and has no links with Chorley or Preston, let alone its neighbour over the hill - Parbold.

People from skelmersdale/Ormskirk are glad to be a part of Lancashire than Merseyside. As do Southport

 

[Gathursty]

People from skelmersdale/Ormskirk are glad to be a part of Lancashire than Merseyside. As do Southport

That is true in the respect of being glad to not live in a densely populated city but when you speak to people about where their relatives live and public transport options, you quickly realise that they actually value Merseyside much more than they will openly admit. Lancashire is normally discussed in the negative - council not investing enough in The Concourse, the litter in the area, the joyriders using Pimbo industrial estate as a race track, the Beacon losing its golf course etc...

See also reverse snobbery in Formby, Southport and Hale Village. Proud to be Scouse but happy to live faraway from Liverpool.

 

[route101]

A pie in the sky idea, but I might think Farnborough and Aldershot should move into Surrey County Council.

Why?

 

[lrailadventure]

That is true in the respect of being glad to not live in a densely populated city but when you speak to people about where their relatives live and public transport options, you quickly realise that they actually value Merseyside much more than they will openly admit. Lancashire is normally discussed in the negative - council not investing enough in The Concourse, the litter in the area, the joyriders using Pimbo industrial estate as a race track, the Beacon losing its golf course etc...

See also reverse snobbery in Formby, Southport and Hale Village. Proud to be Scouse but happy to live faraway from Liverpool.

Since moving to Ormskirk a few years ago, I have wondered about this a few times. Ormskirk/Skem (basically West Lancs), feel a lot closer 'related' to Merseyside (particularly to the Sefton area) than Lancashire. They're essentially commuter towns for Liverpool, a lot of links like the transport and family links you've mentioned, but also things like the hospital trust. Health services here are provided by the Southport and Ormskirk trust.

There has been talks previously of breaking Lancashire down to smaller unitary authorities, but the way it was suggested was Preston and West Lancs became a UA. What would make more sense (to me at least) is combining West Lancs and Sefton to make that a UA. Not sure if it would be considered too small an area, population wise, for it to work though.

 

[dgl]

One thing I always found interesting is that Lyme Regis is in Dorset yet Uplyme is in Devon, noting that there is nothing other than a sign that separates the two places, Uplyme even has a Dorset postcode. Personally I think Devon should start just past Hunters Lodge with Axminster remaining in Devon and the road to Lyme Regis/Uplyme being all in Dorset.

 

[davehsug]

The urban areas of Newcastle-under-Lyme should be incorporated into Stoke-on-Trent, with the more rural areas to the west & South joining Stafford.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One thing I always found interesting is that Lyme Regis is in Dorset yet Uplyme is in Devon, noting that there is nothing other than a sign that separates the two places, Uplyme even has a Dorset postcode. Personally I think Devon should start just past Hunters Lodge with Axminster remaining in Devon and the road to Lyme Regis/Uplyme being all in Dorset.

Postcodes are just whatever was convenient for the internal Royal Mail systems to work efficiently at the time they were established. Hence Aberystwyth having SY (Shrewsbury) postcodes. To be honest I'm surprised that hasn't been changed since devolution, I'd have thought getting it changed would be an easy "PR win" for the Senedd/Plaid Cymru, even though it wouldn't actually change anything in the real world.

There's allsorts of anomalies with postcodes and phone number area codes, Brighouse is in Calderdale but has HD postcodes and 01484 phone numbers which are both Huddersfield. Then there's parts of Huddersfield which have 01422 (Halifax) area codes.

 

[urbophile]

Another pecularity is Sefton. I’m not sure why it exists when the area aligns more with the rest Liverpool and West Lancashire than anywhere in itself. I’d integrate the urban part of it (consisting mostly of Bootle and Crosby) into Liverpool, and northern part consisting of Formby, Southport and surrounding settlements into West Lancashire.

EDIT: Sefton isn’t a unitary authority, but I agree that the part outside the Liverpool urban area should be in Lancashire rather than Merseyside. Perhaps West Lancashire could become a UA in itself.

I'd agree with splitting Sefton. But arguably Southport is in Merseyside//Liverpool City Region because it has strong cultural and commuting links with Liverpool. As does Ormskirk and, arguably, Burscough and Skelmersdale, which are all sizeable communities in West Lancashire. Seems to me there is a strong case for Southport to join West Lancs and it in turn to be part of the City Region.

Knowsley is a nonsense. The original proposals in the early 70s were for it and St Helens to form one borough, but it would have been a chalk and cheese match with St Helens being the Lancashire cheese. Knowsley is geographically impossible (the lines of communication run across it), too small, and economically deprived. Most of its built up areas are continuous with and indistinguishable from outer Liverpool., so I'd think it should be absorbed into the city.

 

[NorthOxonian]

Yarm should be in North Yorkshire, not Stockton. Indeed, the local residents had a referendum to say so:

Yarm council cabinet rejects request to move town boundaries into Yorkshire

89% of voters in affluent Teesside market town wish to leave control of Stockton borough council

www.theguardian.com

Barnoldswick should be back in Yorkshire, where it used to be. They have a Yorkshire flag flying in the town centre.


I consider everywhere between the Tyne and the Tees to be County Durham. And the other side of the Tyne is Northumberland.

That whole area is a total mess - council boundaries seem to have little regard for the actual settlement patterns or historic ties.

Personally, I'd reduce Stockton to just the areas north of the Tees. Then I'd give Middlesbrough its eastern suburbs around South Bank, Eston, and so on - the industrial belt between it and Redcar seems a fairly logical local authority boundary (though dividing up business rates from the site may be an issue). As Redcar and Cleveland would be somewhat short on population, I'd expand it into the North Yorkshire Council area to take in towns and villages that face towards Teesside rather than deeper into Yorkshire - places like Stokesley and Great Ayton as well as Whitby and Eskdale. I'd also put Yarm and Ingleby Barwick in here - meaning they are in an entirely Yorkshire based council, but one with a focus on the towns around traditional Cleveland, rather than one that stretches to distant Cowling and Drax.

The one issue is Thornaby which is clearly distinct from Middlesbrough, across the river from Stockton, and doesn't really fit in rural/small town Cleveland - possibly leave it up to residents to decide in a vote?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Postcodes are just whatever was convenient for the internal Royal Mail systems to work efficiently at the time they were established. Hence Aberystwyth having SY (Shrewsbury) postcodes.

Of course, use of the 'AB' postcode for Aberystwyth wouldn't have been practicable, if nothing else, as it was earmarked for use elsewhere (in North East Scotland).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Of course, use of the 'AB' postcode for Aberystwyth wouldn't have been practicable, if nothing else, as it was earmarked for use elsewhere (in North East Scotland).

There's plenty of other options- just thinking of postcodes around where I live or those I've lived in previously, most aren't just the first two letters of the main settlement. Huddersfield is HD, Wakefield is WF, Kingston upon Thames is KT, Halifax is HX. In fact of all the places I've lived only Taunton was the first two letters. Aberystwyth could be AY.

 

[Dai Corner]

Postcodes are, of course, a routing table for mail, not a geographical database, so it's not surprising to find anomalies when looking at them from that perspective.

As we're on a railway forum, it's worth noting that Aberystwyth has SY postcodes because it's mail used to arrive by train via Shrewsbury.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That whole area is a total mess - council boundaries seem to have little regard for the actual settlement patterns or historic ties.

Personally, I'd reduce Stockton to just the areas north of the Tees. Then I'd give Middlesbrough its eastern suburbs around South Bank, Eston, and so on - the industrial belt between it and Redcar seems a fairly logical local authority boundary (though dividing up business rates from the site may be an issue). As Redcar and Cleveland would be somewhat short on population, I'd expand it into the North Yorkshire Council area to take in towns and villages that face towards Teesside rather than deeper into Yorkshire - places like Stokesley and Great Ayton as well as Whitby and Eskdale. I'd also put Yarm and Ingleby Barwick in here - meaning they are in an entirely Yorkshire based council, but one with a focus on the towns around traditional Cleveland, rather than one that stretches to distant Cowling and Drax.

The one issue is Thornaby which is clearly distinct from Middlesbrough, across the river from Stockton, and doesn't really fit in rural/small town Cleveland - possibly leave it up to residents to decide in a vote?

This subject surrounding Yorkshire comes up time and again, and for the most part, it is fairly irrelevant IMO.

The good people of Yarm want to be part of some resurrected North Riding from 50 years ago... So they want the quality of council services that they get over the border? The fact is that Yarm has much more to do with Stockton/Teesside than it does with Northallerton. Really, it is part of the Teesside conurbation, with it backing onto Eaglescliffe and Ingleby Barwick. The historic boundary in the north was the Tees but it was to get rid of most of the stupidity that it was changed in 1974. Not least in Teesdale where three of the major villages are south of the Tees but Barney and Middleton are north. Restore the old boundary... are we going to have bin lorries travelling from Richmond in order to serve those villages whilst another one races it up the other side of the dale? With the Teesside boundaries, it will never be perfect but I don't see that it's so bad. Redcar and Cleveland meets North Yorkshire in some very unpopulous areas, and you'll always have some challenges where R&C meets Middlesbrough (that boundary isn't too bad except near Normanby).

Perhaps the more baffling one is how Ilkley and Burley come under Bradford MBC. In terms of connectivity and geography, they are really strongly aligned with Otley and have little connection with Bradford, with Guiseley and Hawksworth constituting a Leeds enclave anyway.

The fact is that historically, rivers made up many county boundaries. However, that's really the worst thing you can do. Boundaries need to be in open land, with as few people bisected by the border as possible. Even in 1888, boundaries were redrawn in Staffordshire as people realised that having two different councils in towns like Tamworth or Burton was a really daft idea.

 

[urbophile]

The fact is that historically, rivers made up many county boundaries. However, that's really the worst thing you can do. Boundaries need to be in open land, with as few people bisected by the border as possible. Even in 1888, boundaries were redrawn in Staffordshire as people realised that having two different councils in towns like Tamworth or Burton was a really daft idea.

Warrington was another. Half in Lancashire, half in Cheshire. Settlements usually grow up on both sides of a river, so they have more in common with their opposite numbers than with places further away, so while river borders might have made sense years ago they rarely do now.

 

[J-2739]

Perhaps the more baffling one is how Ilkley and Burley come under Bradford MBC. In terms of connectivity and geography, they are really strongly aligned with Otley and have little connection with Bradford, with Guiseley and Hawksworth constituting a Leeds enclave anyway.

Really? Ilkley is about the same size as Otley, population-wise. They can have some sort of connection with one another based on proximity, but surely the significantly larger Bradford has a much larger centre of gravity, in terms of retail and entertainment?

 

[AY1975]

I believe that Streatham, south London, was historically part of the Borough of Wandsworth until sometime in the 1960s, when a review of the borough boundaries led to it being moved into the Borough of Lambeth although some areas on the Tooting/Streatham border are classed as Streatham but come under Wandsworth.

In the early 1990s Streatham residents unsuccessfully campaigned to be moved back into Wandsworth, probably partly for historical reasons and partly because Wandsworth has long been regarded by many as a more efficient council than Lambeth, which for many years had a reputation for being inefficient and wasteful (and had, and AFAIK still has, a much higher Council Tax than Wandsworth). Geographically it probably makes more sense for Streatham to come under Lambeth, though, given that it is surrounded by other areas of Lambeth such as Brixton.

 

[xotGD]

Really? Ilkley is about the same size as Otley, population-wise. They can have some sort of connection with one another based on proximity, but surely the significantly larger Bradford has a much larger centre of gravity, in terms of retail and entertainment?

Ilkley Moor separates Ilkley from the rest of the Borough. For me to get there I have to cross into Leeds Borough and back again.

Ask the residents if they want to be part of Bradford and I know what response you'll get.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Really? Ilkley is about the same size as Otley, population-wise. They can have some sort of connection with one another based on proximity, but surely the significantly larger Bradford has a much larger centre of gravity, in terms of retail and entertainment?

Ilkley Moor separates Ilkley from the rest of the Borough. For me to get there I have to cross into Leeds Borough and back again.

Ask the residents if they want to be part of Bradford and I know what response you'll get.

@xotGD has hit the nail on the head @J-2739 - immediately to the south of the town is Ilkley Moor which acts as a physical barrier between it and Bradford. Much more closely aligned with Otley (which is in Leeds Met Boro) and, if you want a trip for the finer things in life, it's arguably easier to get into Leeds rather than Bradford and nicer too. Bradford is closer as the crow flies but there really is no connection, geographically or culturally, between Ilkley and Bradford.

 

[RichJF]

My own town, East Grinstead used to be in East Sussex until 1974 when it moved to Mid Sussex (inside West Sussex). Fast forward to 2024 & it's likely to move into the old Wealden voting area of East Sussex (where it used to be) as the population of Mid Sussex is now too big to include the town.

Fine, however the town will remain in West Sussex despite joining a 90% East Sussex constituency. Just move it back into East Sussex & be done with the weird teardrop corner of West Sussex we're stuck in. Voting with East Sussex but being governed by West Sussex?

Okay soapbox time is over

 

[adrock1976]

A north of the border example from me is that the former Cumbernauld & Kilsyth District Council (abolished 1996) should ideally be part of East Dunbartonshire instead of North Lanarkshire.

Both towns have never ever been part of Lanarkshire at all. Before 1975 when the District and Regional Councils were formed in Scotland (with the fire and police forces to match), Kilsyth was in Stirlingshire and Cumbernauld was in Dunbartonshire (sans the areas of land that the former Cumbernauld Development Corporation was responsible for - again the CDC was abolished in 1996 and lumped in with North Lanarkshire).

Since the creation of North Lanarkshire in 1996 (HQ at Motherwell), it has been run by the Monklands Mafia of the Labour Party, with Jim McCabe (Coatbridge) running it from 1998-2016, and Jim Logan (Airdrie) running it from 2016-present apart from a short spell when Jordan Linden (SNP) had a brief spell from May 2022-July 2022 when he resigned due to a gay sex scandal, with one SNP councillor from Airdrie crossing the floor to Labour.

North Lanarkshire is presently run by an unholy alliance of Labour and Conservatives with some anger, as the area of the council covers the former steelworks at Gartcosh and Ravenscraig with residents of those areas not forgetting the Conservatives were in charge of the UK Government and the Scottish Office when they closed down.

 

[317 forever]

I'd agree with splitting Sefton. But arguably Southport is in Merseyside//Liverpool City Region because it has strong cultural and commuting links with Liverpool. As does Ormskirk and, arguably, Burscough and Skelmersdale, which are all sizeable communities in West Lancashire. Seems to me there is a strong case for Southport to join West Lancs and it in turn to be part of the City Region.

Knowsley is a nonsense. The original proposals in the early 70s were for it and St Helens to form one borough, but it would have been a chalk and cheese match with St Helens being the Lancashire cheese. Knowsley is geographically impossible (the lines of communication run across it), too small, and economically deprived. Most of its built up areas are continuous with and indistinguishable from outer Liverpool., so I'd think it should be absorbed into the city.

If anything, Widnes & Runcorn belong more to Merseyside than Southport does. I do understand Crosby staying in Merseyside but agree that Southport, and Formby too, could join West Lancs.

Warrington was another. Half in Lancashire, half in Cheshire. Settlements usually grow up on both sides of a river, so they have more in common with their opposite numbers than with places further away, so while river borders might have made sense years ago they rarely do now.

What I wondered was how Warrington escaped becoming part of Greater Manchester, or maybe Merseyside. It is nearer Manchester than Wigan is. Incidentally, with Warrington and Wigan being nearer Liverpool than Manchester they could have suited Merseyside.

 

[Gathursty]

Incidentally, with Warrington and Wigan being nearer Liverpool than Manchester they could have suited Merseyside.

Putting us Wiganers in Merseyside - very funny. No and say no more about this haha.

 

[urbophile]

Putting us Wiganers in Merseyside - very funny. No and say no more about this haha.

But you're not that keen on being in Manchester either!

 

[Dai Corner]

But you're not that keen on being in Manchester either!

Selnec, perhaps?

 

[urbophile]

If anything, Widnes & Runcorn belong more to Merseyside than Southport does. I do understand Crosby staying in Merseyside but agree that Southport, and Formby too, could join West Lancs.

Southport (and possibly Formby, despite its postcode) has never been a good fit with the rest of Sefton. But it nevertheless has strong economic, social and cultural links with Liverpool. If it splits from Bootle etc it should not be to leave the City Region, but to join with Ormksirk and Skem (ie most of West Lancs) as another borough within Greater Liverpool.

 

[156421]

Haltwhistle, in western Northumberland has more in common with Carlisle than with Newcastle and is closer to the former. Just west of the town the postcode area changes (Newcastle, NE to Carlisle, CA) with the county boundary a few miles beyond there. It would surely be more logical to include Haltwhistle in Cumberland given its ties with Carlisle.

Meanwhile we have Millom bizarrely now in Cumberland rather than Westmorland and Furness; also Penrith is now not in Cumberland, falling in Westmorland and Furness. Yet another bewildering boundary change which is simply going to cause speculation of political motivations.