Trivia: Settlements that perhaps should be in a different local authority

[THC]

I forgot about Castle Point, you could include that aswell.
Especially with the financial problems with Thurrock

So you'd have all the rest of us on the hook for Thurrock? I don't think so!

All the local authorities round here work together through the South Essex Councils joint committee. I think that's as close as the members want to be for now.

THC

 

[Simon75]

So you'd have all the rest of us on the hook for Thurrock? I don't think so!

All the local authorities round here work together through the South Essex Councils joint committee. I think that's as close as the members want to be for now.

THC

I didn't know about the South Essex Councils committee.

 

[3141]

In Essex Southend and Thurrock unity authorities merge with Basildon , to create Thamesway unity authority

Two comments on that idea.

It's desirable that there should be something that unites a unitary authority. I doubt whether most residents of Southend ever have (or want) much to do with Thurrock. There may be more connections between Basildon and Thurrock, but not strong ones.

There is always a political angle to such reorganisations. Would the proposed UA turn out to be Conservative or Labour? Conservatives in Southend, which regained its independence when it became a UA, wouldn't want to be tied into Labour Thurrock (see post #121 above). Labour in Thurrock wouldn't want to be dominated by Conservative Southend. I'm not surprised that THC states that members of these authorities don't wish to go further than co-operative arrangements.

 

[THC]

I didn't know about the South Essex Councils committee.

Constituted as the Association of South Essex Local Authorities (ASELA) in 2018/19, given formal Joint Committee status in 2021 and "rebooted" as South Essex Councils this year. Members are Southend and Thurrock unitaries, Basildon, Brentwood, Castle Point and Rochford districts, and Essex County Council.

THC

 

[Djgr]

I don't understand this parochialism. Wirral only exists (except as an unpopulated wilderness, as in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight) because of its proximity to and dependence upon Liverpool. Similarly for the rest of Merseyside as was. And Liverpool has never been culturally Lancashire unless you go far back in history. (Incidentally I think Merseyside still exists as a ceremonial county - it has a Lord Lieutenant or did until recently).

Yes, it's way more complicated than that.

Essentially the Wirral is an island (water on three sides) and operates with an island mentally.

When my daughter was much younger and played lacrosse at the weekend, every away match involved travelling along the M56 to the likes of Wilmslow, Stockport, Mellor. Teams in Liverpool and Lancashire were never played. Sports leagues tend to operate on traditional county boundaries.

From Birkenhead you can clearly see Liverpool's two (stunning) cathedrals but its actual Church of England cathedral is in Chester and its Roman Catholic cathedral is in (pub quiz answer coming up!) Shrewsbury!

Until recently, West Wirral's TV came from Cardiff and water from Welsh Water.

 

[DunsBus]

There was a case of this in the Scottish Borders up until the mid-1970s. Stow, Fountainhall and Heriot, in the Gala Water valley north of Galashiels, were in Midlothian due to a historical quirk going back to 1018. In Stow's case, its parish straddled two counties, Midlothian and Selkirkshire.
As these villages had more in common with the Borders than with the rest of Midlothian, they became part of Selkirkshire in the 1975 Scottish local authority changes when the Midlothian boundary was moved up the A7 from Bowland to Middleton Moor.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If Essex goes through restructuring in the future, I imagine there probably could be 3 unitaries in the county with Southend remaining unchanged. Castle Point, Thurrock, Basildon, Brentwood coming together as one. With the remainder as the rural North administered from Colchester. Not sure where Chelmsford fits in, perhaps as a 4th unitary?

 

[A S Leib]

Watford is best moved out of Hertfordshire (please). London can have it.

I disagree. Hertfordshire doesn't have anywhere the size of Luton, Reading, Southend or Brighton as it is; I don't see the point in taking what is (by most counts) its most populous town out. Watford's also the eighth-smallest local authority in England by area and its population would be significantly smaller than any other London borough (the Square Mile doesn't count), with ~100,000 against 150,000 for Kensington and Chelsea. It does form a more or less continuous urban area with Hemel, but then there'd be the question of what to do with a local authority of two similarly-sized towns and little else, and with the remainder of Dacorum, Hertsmere, and Three Rivers - the latter two have half the population density of Bromley and wouldn't really work as London boroughs.

 

[THC]

If Essex goes through restructuring in the future, I imagine there probably could be 3 unitaries in the county with Southend remaining unchanged. Castle Point, Thurrock, Basildon, Brentwood coming together as one. With the remainder as the rural North administered from Colchester. Not sure where Chelmsford fits in, perhaps as a 4th unitary?

As a precursor to the development of the current devolution proposal expected to be announced in the Autumn Statement on 22 November, some work was undertaken to see what a unitary Greater Essex might look like, and both 4- and 5-council models were identified, the former on the current Essex CC footprint and the latter on a Greater Essex one. Both fitted within the Government's population thresholds for new unitaries of between 300k and 600k (although the eagle-eyed among you will note that none of the three new unitaries that came into being this year to replace the old Cumbria and North Yorkshire two-tier structures meet these thresholds). And both were dispensed with when devolution was decoupled from local government reorganisation when Michael Gove went back to DLUHC.

At the same time a study was commissioned by the Association of South Essex Local Authorities (ASELA, now South Essex Councils) and published in mid-2020 on what local government reorganisation and devolution might look like in South Essex (it's still online if you're curious). It proposed a two-unitary model: a South West Essex council to contain Basildon, Thurrock and potentially Brentwood; and a South East Essex council to contain Southend, Rochford and Castle Point; and a South Essex combined authority to sit above them. That proposal was rejected by DLUHC at the time, and was finally buried when Basildon changed administration in May 2021 and withdrew its support.

THC

 

[miklcct]

I disagree. Hertfordshire doesn't have anywhere the size of Luton, Reading, Southend or Brighton as it is; I don't see the point in taking what is (by most counts) its most populous town out. Watford's also the eighth-smallest local authority in England by area and its population would be significantly smaller than any other London borough (the Square Mile doesn't count), with ~100,000 against 150,000 for Kensington and Chelsea. It does form a more or less continuous urban area with Hemel, but then there'd be the question of what to do with a local authority of two similarly-sized towns and little else, and with the remainder of Dacorum, Hertsmere, and Three Rivers - the latter two have half the population density of Bromley and wouldn't really work as London boroughs.

I disagree your disagreement.

Watford forms part of the Greater London built up area with no significant gap from Harrow, and the transport connection there is mainly London-oriented. It is served by the tube, the Overground and London Buses. It is much faster to go from Watford to outer London compared to other towns of Hertfordshire.

Anywhere north of Watford should remain outside London. The boundary should be about at Bricket Wood and Kings Langley.

 

[A S Leib]

I disagree your disagreement.

Watford forms part of the Greater London built up area with no significant gap from Harrow, and the transport connection there is mainly London-oriented. It is served by the tube, the Overground and London Buses. It is much faster to go from Watford to outer London compared to other towns of Hertfordshire.

I suspect neither of us will convince the other, but
a) would you move Bushey into Greater London as well, which would leave Hertsmere with ~77,000 people? (I'll concede that Brentwood district has a similar population and Hertsmere council's based in Borehamwood, so that's not a massive issue.)
b) I'm not sure it's much quicker; St. Albans to Mill Hill Broadway and Broxbourne to Tottenham Hale are 13 minutes. I know that relatively that's a big increase against 7 minutes for LNR services, but it's quicker than the Overground ones and Met services to Harrow-on-the-Hill. (If you mean that it's a lot quicker to go from Watford to Harrow than from Watford to St. Albans or Stevenage, similar arguments could be made for Epsom, Dartford, Glossop, Ellesmere Port or - especially with Aylesbury services only going to Princes Risborough and without East West Rail yet - Denham and Gerrards Cross).
c) I agree that if it's north of Watford it definitely shouldn't be in Greater London, but I don't think the area between Hemel and Watford is substantially less built-up than that between Watford and the Greater London boundary.

Anywhere north of Watford should remain outside London. The boundary should be about at Bricket Wood and Kings Langley.

I think the M25 is already the Enfield–Hertfordshire border, so use that as a boundary and then keep Elstree and Radlett in Hertfordshire?

 

[AY1975]

I always thought Wimbledon should be in Wandsworth and Mitcham made into part of Sutton or Croydon.

Why? Surely that would make Merton much smaller, and it would then lose two of its major settlements leaving it only with the likes of Colliers Wood and Morden (and Raynes Park if that were to remain part of Merton). Or are you suggesting that the Borough of Merton should be abolished and carved up between its neighbouring boroughs (Croydon, Sutton, Kingston and Wandsworth, and possibly Lambeth as Merton does border Lambeth in parts of the Tooting/Streatham area).

 

[Some guy]

Barrow should still be in Lancashire the fact it’s been 50 years almost and Barrow FC club badge still has the red rose of Lancashire and the same goes for Southport the locals have always been upset with being placed into Merseyside

 

[urbophile]

Barrow should still be in Lancashire the fact it’s been 50 years almost and Barrow FC club badge still has the red rose of Lancashire and the same goes for Southport the locals have always been upset with being placed into Merseyside

Until they get to pension age and realise the benefits of a Merseytravel concessionary pass. The anomaly there is that surrounding suburbs and countryside, along with Ormskirk and Skelmersdale, are still in Lancashire when they would much more appropriately belong to Liverpool City Region.

 

[Djgr]

Barrow should still be in Lancashire the fact it’s been 50 years almost and Barrow FC club badge still has the red rose of Lancashire and the same goes for Southport the locals have always been upset with being placed into Merseyside

A reminder that historically Liverpool, Bootle and Southport were always in the same county