Trivia: Settlements that perhaps should be in a different local authority

[PTR 444]

Having lived in East Dorset for much of my life, I’ve found that the area surrounding Wimborne, Ferndown and Verwood tends to look more towards Bournemouth and Poole rather than the rest of Dorset.

In the past, Bournemouth and Poole were separate unitary authorities, while Christchurch was part of the East Dorset district of Dorset County Council. The merger of these three towns into BCP council has effectively created one authority for the majority of the East Dorset conurbation, save for the areas to the north which have more in common with Bournemouth than Dorchester.

If they were part of BCP, then they could have better integrated services and pay their council tax to benefit an area 5-10 miles away that they are more likely to visit regularly, rather than one 25 miles away.

Can you think of any other groups of settlements that would be better off administered by a different local authority?

 

[BenS123]

I can definitely agree that Ferndown and Wimborne look towards Bournemouth and Poole respectively. I don't think either look towards Christchurch particularly, but certainly neither look towards West Dorset. I commute between the two authorities daily, but hardly ever visit areas such as Dorchester. Ferndown and Wimborne are not small settlements either.

Verwood would also belong in the new BCP as I find it tends to look towards Ferndown. It could probably just become South East Dorset Council.

 

[Ianigsy]

When the southern part of Lancashire was split up to create Merseyside and Greater Manchester, it separated Wigan, St Helens, Leigh, Widnes and Warrington, which have more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester. Wigan and Leigh ended up in GM, St Helens in Merseyside and Warrington and Widnes were attached to Cheshire because there was nowhere else for them to go.

Similarly, I currently live near the West/North Yorkshire border where you have a chain of small towns allocated to different authorities- Skipton (Craven, now NY), Ilkley (Bradford), Otley and Wetherby (Leeds). The last three all have outlying estates which cross into North Yorkshire, which caused fun during the tiers phase of Covid when people in the same cul de sac were subject to different restrictions from their neighbours.

 

[PTR 444]

Another pecularity is Sefton. I’m not sure why it exists when the area aligns more with the rest Liverpool and West Lancashire than anywhere in itself. I’d integrate the urban part of it (consisting mostly of Bootle and Crosby) into Liverpool, and northern part consisting of Formby, Southport and surrounding settlements into West Lancashire.

EDIT: Sefton isn’t a unitary authority, but I agree that the part outside the Liverpool urban area should be in Lancashire rather than Merseyside. Perhaps West Lancashire could become a UA in itself.

 

[xotGD]

Yarm should be in North Yorkshire, not Stockton. Indeed, the local residents had a referendum to say so:

Yarm council cabinet rejects request to move town boundaries into Yorkshire

89% of voters in affluent Teesside market town wish to leave control of Stockton borough council

www.theguardian.com

Barnoldswick should be back in Yorkshire, where it used to be. They have a Yorkshire flag flying in the town centre.


I consider everywhere between the Tyne and the Tees to be County Durham. And the other side of the Tyne is Northumberland.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Filton and Kingswood should probably be part of Bristol given they're part of the urban area. However I suspect a lot of people living there would oppose this on the basis a South Gloucestershire postcode is seen as more desirable than a Bristol one.

Whilst splitting the unloved Avon into North Somerset, Bath and North East Somerset, Bristol and South Glos in 1997 might have been popular politically, I doubt it's done much for efficiencies to have four authorities rather than one.

There are admittedly lots of UK cities where the administrative boundaries bear no real resemblance to the built-up area. One of the reasons Bournemouth was moved from Hampshire into Dorset in 1974 was to make administration easier given the boundary between Poole and Bournemouth is rather challenging to follow on the ground. I've never been entirely sure why Christchurch was moved though, as the boundary with Bournemouth largely follows the River Stour so is rather clearer.

 

[swt_passenger]

There are admittedly lots of UK cities where the administrative boundaries bear no real resemblance to the built-up area. One of the reasons Bournemouth was moved from Hampshire into Dorset in 1974 was to make administration easier given the boundary between Poole and Bournemouth is rather challenging to follow on the ground. I've never been entirely sure why Christchurch was moved though, as the boundary with Bournemouth largely follows the River Stour so is rather clearer.

I think it was partly done to give Dorset a more significant population relative to its area - ie increase the tax base.

 

[PTR 444]

I can definitely agree that Ferndown and Wimborne look towards Bournemouth and Poole respectively. I don't think either look towards Christchurch particularly, but certainly neither look towards West Dorset. I commute between the two authorities daily, but hardly ever visit areas such as Dorchester. Ferndown and Wimborne are not small settlements either.

Verwood would also belong in the new BCP as I find it tends to look towards Ferndown. It could probably just become South East Dorset Council.

I definitely agree on moving Wimborne, Ferndown, West Moors, Corfe Mullen and Upton to BCP. They are basically a continuation of the Bournemouth, Christchurch & Poole urban area, so would make perfect sense being officially part of the “large town”.

Verwood, Three Legged Cross and Ashley Heath could also go to BCP, although they’re a bit further out and I’d argue that they could be moved into Hampshire with Ringwood being nearby. The latter settlement was indeed in that county until 1974, while the other two are very close to the historic boundary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Jun 2023 ==

I think it was partly done to give Dorset a more significant population relative to its area - ie increase the tax base.

That makes sense. Obviously if Dorset lost the Eastern part of the county, it would also lose quite a bit of its population. The reduction in land area might make up for it though and keep the proportion of taxpayers in relation to land area similar to now.

 

[BenS123]

Verwood, Three Legged Cross and Ashley Heath could also go to BCP, although they’re a bit further out and I’d argue that they could be moved into Hampshire with Ringwood being nearby. The latter settlement was indeed in that county until 1974, while the other two are very close to the historic boundary.

I'd say those 3 areas probably look towards Ringwood to be honest so I'd agree they'd fit better in Hampshire

 

[Cambus731]

If this includes Counties, then the obvious example is Newmarket.
It was a nice historical quirk that is was a virtual enclave of Suffolk, surrounded by Cambridgeshire, but it would make more sense in transport funding etc, if the boundary was tidied up and Newmarket transferred to Cambridgeshire. Obviously there would be so.e local objection to this simply because Newmarket had always been in Suffolk, but it would make sense.

At parish boundary level, the boundary between Cherry Hinton and Teversham should be altered to bring the whole of the Foxgloves Estate into Cherry Hinton.

 

[Magdalia]

The main difficulty with moving settlements between local authorities is differences in council tax precepts.

At parish boundary level, the boundary between Cherry Hinton and Teversham should be altered to bring the whole of the Foxgloves Estate into Cherry Hinton.

For example, this would move some properties out of South Cambridgeshire and into Cambridge.

There is a similar example on the other side of Cambridge at Orchard Park.

Economically, there is an argument that can be made for moving all of Newmarket, Haverhill, Saffron Walden and Royston into Cambridgeshire. And it gets stronger as the Cambridge economy continues to grow rapidly.

But it isn't going to happen.

 

[PTR 444]

The main difficulty with moving settlements between local authorities is differences in council tax precepts.


For example, this would move some properties out of South Cambridgeshire and into Cambridge.

There is a similar example on the other side of Cambridge at Orchard Park.

Economically, there is an argument that can be made for moving all of Newmarket, Haverhill, Saffron Walden and Royston into Cambridgeshire. And it gets stronger as the Cambridge economy continues to grow rapidly.

But it isn't going to happen.

Genuine question, why?

 

[Magdalia]

Genuine question, why?

Very few people support a boundary change that results in them paying more council tax.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Wilmslow and Alderley Edge, with very influential friends, successfully managed to stay out of Greater Manchester in 1974 as originally had been planned. Logically they should be part of Manchester City Council or Stockport MB where most of their citizens work and play. It is a major issue for bus services, where TfGM routes ludicrously stop at the border (Handforth Dean and Woodford) instead of continuing to Wilmslow. Council tax is higher in Manchester and significantly higher in Stockport compared to Cheshire East, so nobody is going to vote for it.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

I think authorities should be smaller because the bigger they are the less accountable and more bloated & corrupt they become.

North Yorkshire for example has become one extra large single authority area but Cumbria, smaller in size, was split into two??

I do understand the view that some urban areas that should come under BCP if these are situated outside its borders. Straightforward this can seem but the BCP Council is godawful, the previous administration got ousted as it was mostly of Bournemouth councillors unfavourably set against Poole & Christchurch residents. I live just outside the BCP area, I'd rather live under Dorset Council as I don't wish to see BCP's urban problems spreading over the border.

I personally believe in smaller authorities with those in charge more visible, thus less easy to hide away when called out for accountability rather than just passing the parcel in a large labrynith like organisation.

 

[Gathursty]

Skelmersdale should be in Merseyside. It's a Liverpool overspill town and has no links with Chorley or Preston, let alone its neighbour over the hill - Parbold.

 

[317 forever]

When the southern part of Lancashire was split up to create Merseyside and Greater Manchester, it separated Wigan, St Helens, Leigh, Widnes and Warrington, which have more in common with each other than with Liverpool or Manchester. Wigan and Leigh ended up in GM, St Helens in Merseyside and Warrington and Widnes were attached to Cheshire because there was nowhere else for them to go.

Similarly, I currently live near the West/North Yorkshire border where you have a chain of small towns allocated to different authorities- Skipton (Craven, now NY), Ilkley (Bradford), Otley and Wetherby (Leeds). The last three all have outlying estates which cross into North Yorkshire, which caused fun during the tiers phase of Covid when people in the same cul de sac were subject to different restrictions from their neighbours.

Nearby Selby in North Yorkshire I feel should be in East Yorkshire. Selby is between Leeds and Hull and a long way south east of anywhere else in North Yorkshire.

 

[Snow1964]

There are admittedly lots of UK cities where the administrative boundaries bear no real resemblance to the built-up area. One of the reasons Bournemouth was moved from Hampshire into Dorset in 1974 was to make administration easier given the boundary between Poole and Bournemouth is rather challenging to follow on the ground. I've never been entirely sure why Christchurch was moved though, as the boundary with Bournemouth largely follows the River Stour so is rather clearer.

Back in late 1970s or start of 1980s Christchurch tried to get New Milton added (being eastern end of the conurbation) rather than in rural New Forest (this was when Totton and Hythe were still small).
I grew up there and remember debate in local newspaper. At the time there was no direct public transport to Lyndhurst, but 1 or 2 direct buses and 2 trains per hour to Christchurch. There was also a local telephone short code to Christchurch (which from memory was single 9) so didn't need to use the trunk dialling code, and water supply was by Christchurch water.

There was some serious school anomalies created by moving Christchurch into Dorset, as in early 1970s Hampshire changed to comprehensive education, and sent secondary pupils Brockenhurst 3 stops along the railway to Highcliffe, but all Dorset pupils in Christchurch borough had to attend the Hampshire sixth form at Brockenhurst.

I also remember our junior school teachers were envious of Christchurch junior schools in 1974-76 as they had huge amounts of money thrown at them as part of the reorganisation including levelling and adding good drainage to their playing fields, which were better maintained than the Hampshire ones.

 

[adc82140]

I can definitely agree that Ferndown and Wimborne look towards Bournemouth and Poole respectively. I don't think either look towards Christchurch particularly, but certainly neither look towards West Dorset. I commute between the two authorities daily, but hardly ever visit areas such as Dorchester. Ferndown and Wimborne are not small settlements either.

Verwood would also belong in the new BCP as I find it tends to look towards Ferndown. It could probably just become South East Dorset Council.

If you're looking for a SE Dorset council, can you add those of us across the border in Hampshire to it? Ringwood and Fordingbridge have been forgotten by the council in Winchester as we're geographically out on a limb.

It's an awkward area. When I'm doing my radio broadcasting stint, I'll always say "across East Dorset and the Western New Forest". Perhaps the New Forest and East Dorset should be a new county?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nearby Selby in North Yorkshire I feel should be in East Yorkshire. Selby is between Leeds and Hull and a long way south east of anywhere else in North Yorkshire.

On Yorkshire, South Yorkshire should be abolished and we should return to the three "Ridings". Sheffield, Barnsley and Rotherham go into the West Riding, with Doncaster going into the East Riding.

 

[PTR 444]

If you're looking for a SE Dorset council, can you add those of us across the border in Hampshire to it? Ringwood and Fordingbridge have been forgotten by the council in Winchester as we're geographically out on a limb.

It's an awkward area. When I'm doing my radio broadcasting stint, I'll always say "across East Dorset and the Western New Forest". Perhaps the New Forest and East Dorset should be a new county?

I’d just make the New Forest a unitary authority in itself. It is after all the most populated district in Hampshire, and even more so if you bolt on Verwood and the surrounding area.

 

[Iskra]

On Yorkshire, South Yorkshire should be abolished and we should return to the three "Ridings". Sheffield, Barnsley and Rotherham go into the West Riding, with Doncaster going into the East Riding.

I agree with this.

- - -

As a former resident of Birstall (West Yorks), which sits under Kirklees Local Authority (Huddersfield), has a Wakefield postcode, is closer to Bradford, but Leeds is quicker to get to. I suggest Birstall should return to Leeds for local authority purposes as it once was, as it is culturally closer to Leeds and most of its populace gravitate in that direction for employment and schooling. It’s forgotten and neglected under Kirklees despite being a sizeable area of economic activity due to the Jct 27 retail and industrial parks.

Dewsbury and Batley may have similar desires, although slightly less justifiably and without historical precedent like Birstall.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree with this.

- - -

As a former resident of Birstall (West Yorks), which sits under Kirklees Local Authority (Huddersfield), has a Wakefield postcode, is closer to Bradford, but Leeds is quicker to get to. I suggest Birstall should return to Leeds for local authority purposes as it once was, as it is culturally closer to Leeds and most of its populace gravitate in that direction for employment and schooling. It’s forgotten and neglected under Kirklees despite being a sizeable area of economic activity due to the Jct 27 retail and industrial parks.

Dewsbury and Batley may have similar desires, although slightly less justifiably and without historical precedent like Birstall.

I'd certainly support the abolition of Kirklees Council, it's a meaningless name that was only adopted to prevent allegations of being Huddersfield-centric from people in Dewsbury and the Spen Valley- something that clearly wasn't a success. It's also too big an area for a single authority, hence being split into South and North Kirklees respectively for many functions.
Huddersfield along with the Holme and Colne Valleys and the A629 corridor to Denby Dale should become a new Huddersfield & District Council, with what is currently known as "North Kirklees" (Mirfield, Dewsbury, Batley, Heckmondwike and Cleckheaton) becoming Dewsbury & Spen District Council. Birstall probably should be absorbed into Leeds as you suggest, which would probably mean Birkenshaw being reabsorbed into Bradford.

 

[Bevan Price]

Unfortunately, the Civil Service / Whitehall has a habit of reorganising local boundaries to conform to some "model" , without caring about - or even consulting local residents' opinions (as opposed to seeking opinions of local councillors, which are not always the same as opinions of the majority of residents.)

So, despite being hugely unpopular in Southport, that town was lumped together with Bootle, Crosby, etc. to create the entity called Sefton - which is the name of a small village within that area.
Leigh (Lancs.) fared even worse, being lumped into, and taking the name of Wigan.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

If the Yorkshire ridings were to be brought back, this could be tricky as the Western part is more urbanised that the Selby, Harrogate and Craven areas, being more rural, could find themselves eclisped by Leeds, Sheffield etc. Also York has since expanded outside the city walls.

Current day South Yorks & West Yorks both could be reformed into a "new West Riding" though more urbanised than its pre-1974 state. And the rural ex-West Riding parts of Craven & Harrogate could go in the North Riding, with Selby joining Goole in the East Riding.

The existing East Riding would continue as a unitary area though with inclusion of Selby, the new North Riding would be a new unitary area with Craven & Harrogate included (though smaller than North Yorks of today). The new West Riding likely would be current W & S Yorkshire merged with existing urban council areas (Doncaster, Kirklees etc) continuing to be administered separately rather than one large unitary area.

The current City of York unitary area could remain as it is, with 1996 borders, as York wasn't really part of any riding as it was inside the city walls before the 1974 changes.

 

[Magdalia]

Unfortunately, the Civil Service / Whitehall has a habit of reorganising local boundaries to conform to some "model"

That's not correct. The last comprehensive reorganisation "to conform to some model" was in 1974, which will be 50 years ago next year.

The Civil Service/Whitehall habit, since the introduction of Council Tax, is not to touch reorganisation with a barge pole unless forced to do so, usually by financial crises. The recent reorganisation in Northamptonshire is a good example of this.

 

[swt_passenger]

I’d just make the New Forest a unitary authority in itself. It is after all the most populated district in Hampshire, and even more so if you bolt on Verwood and the surrounding area.

It isn’t on its own, as of the 2021 census. Basingstoke and Deane is a bit larger.

 

[telstarbox]

In the south end of the Medway conurbation there are bits in Tonbridge & Malling and Maidstone boroughs - really everything north of the M2 should be Medway.

 

[PTR 444]

It isn’t on its own, as of the 2021 census. Basingstoke and Deane is a bit larger.

Ahh okay. I obviously haven’t checked those figures since they were released. Pretty sure in 2011 it was New Forest.

Further on this topic, I would support dividing Hampshire into five different unitary authorities:

New Forest - covering the existing NF district as well as a small part of Dorset
East Solent - covering much of South Hampshire stretching from Eastleigh to Fareham, Gosport, Waterlooville and Havant
Hart & Rushmoor - covering Fleet and the Blackwater Valley
Basingstoke & Andover - covering the existing Basingstoke & Deane and Test Valley district north of Stockbridge.
Winchester - covering Winchester and the rest of Hampshire

 

[bearhugger]

Yarm should be in North Yorkshire, not Stockton. Indeed, the local residents had a referendum to say so:

Yarm council cabinet rejects request to move town boundaries into Yorkshire

89% of voters in affluent Teesside market town wish to leave control of Stockton borough council

www.theguardian.com

Barnoldswick should be back in Yorkshire, where it used to be. They have a Yorkshire flag flying in the town centre.


I consider everywhere between the Tyne and the Tees to be County Durham. And the other side of the Tyne is Northumberland.

The river Tees used to be the boundary between North Yorkshire & County Durham so places like Yarm & Thornaby shouldn't be part of the Stockton borough. I believe Haverton Hill & Port Clarence are considered part of the borough of Middlesbrough even though they're on the other side of the river.