BlythPower
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Post 200 for me and I'm very happy to use it congratulating Rich for his post. I couldn't agree more.
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The Coaliton & The Cuts
- Thread starter HST Power
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Post 200 for me and I'm very happy to use it congratulating Rich for his post. I couldn't agree more.
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R
RailUK Forums
Perhaps he is being a bit overzealous on those comments, but everything else he is spot on with.
A lot of industry in the NE was destroyed in the 80s and 90s, and the ones brought in to replace it turned out to be massive white elephants. It may be a good idea to introduce call centres in Sunderland, but they were replacing shipbuilding and coal mining - the result was that the jobs often went to people who never were once employed in those two industries that I've just mentioned, so those made redundant sat on the dole. The only reason that Nissan came to Washington, and has stayed there since, is due to the generous subsidies that have been given time and time again.
Where once stood Dawdon colliery there are now shiny new office blocks, which were built in the past 2-3 years (about 10-15 years after the collieries in Seaham closed, funnily enough), which now stand empty, and have done so since they were built. Further south in Easington they still have a high rate of unemployment and prolems with drink and drugs - all due to the fact that the heart of the community was ripped out in one fell swoop. The last deep mine in Northumberland was producing coal at a cheaper price than importing coal from places such as Poland and Russia. According to Newcastle University we still have 300 years' worth of coal under the North Sea. Shame we closed all the pits which could have accessed it. If you think the price of opening a new pit is high, even something on a smaller scale such as gassification would still require a huge upfront investment.
In the 6 months before the closure of Consett BSC it was in profit, yet still was closed down. Another area where the promise of new jobs and industry failed to materialise. I also remember that several new hi-tech industries were supposed to be coming to this area, namely computer chips. One went to South Shields where there was government money waiting, and left as soon as that money dried up.
With the new Local Enterprise Partnerships I can see the same thing happening again. More money down the drain attracting foreign investment for assembling things made somewhere else to look nice in the papers. Then a few years along the line the company pulls out and retreats back to its homeland.
The inevitable result of people not thinking things through. If they had thought through the idea behind closing things down, they would have realised that people don't just change from one way of life to another just like that, they either need time for one generation to supplant the next or for a thorough change. Of course, there was plenty of terrible short-termism long before this. If Clyde shipyards were still using Victorian equipment in the 1960s, is it any wonder they became unprofitable? Why not modernise before everyone else steals a march on you? You have orders to fulfil and want to carry on regardless while all this is happening.
Yes, it could well happen again. We don't seem to have many industries going at the moment. They still make vans in Luton, and will carry on thanks to a guarantee on a government loan, but what happens when that dries up? They still make satellite components in Stevenage, but that might fall apart because of the recession.
Still, it's worth knowing that in 300 years we will control almost the whole of the world's coal reserves once everyone else has used theirs up. That's assuming we're still burning stuff to produce energy.
Coal is never going to be an acceptable replacement for oil due to the CO2 emissions. It's also likely that by that time this country will just be a state of a United European Federation.
If we're around in 300 years that is!
I've always had a feeling that it may be left as some sort of strategic reserve, yet North Sea oil and gas would probably be much more useful for other products than energy.
Doubt it would be Soviet, the EU is capitalist.
SS4
Established Member
Alternatively politicians in Germany finishing what Hitler started :roll:
(in case it's unclear I too am being sarcastic and I agree with your comment quoted above)
Well a blue Soviet Union then, complete with Politburo (European Commission - unelected), Central Committee (Council of Ministers - unelected) and Supreme Soviet (European Council - unelected), plus a bunch of powerless apologists who are elected to give a veneer of democracy. A capitalist oligarchy instead of a communist oligarchy.
I'll be joining you on that one. Or perhaps Canada I'm not a fan of heat, but the cricket is certainly better in Australia. Decisions decisions
Seriously though I don't have a problem with the EU when it was just the EEC (the economic grouping) but since it's got these political delusions of grandeur I'm not a fan. As I say I love Europe but I hate the EU.
With a capitalist system though, big business will also have quite a large say in things.
I tend to agree to a point. It's very easy for people who have had opportunities in their life, either through the money their family has, the people they know, or just plain good fortune to judge others. It's very easy for people will soft skills in business, or the financial clout to get themselves into a position in life, compared to those from much humbler backgrounds.
One of the chief problems as I see it in this country is housing, its very hard to afford private rents and virtually impossible to afford to buy on anything less than £25k per year in most parts of the country. This problem is more acute in the south, especially rural areas. This limits jobs some people can reasonably take, without being on some sort of benefit.
I think one area I don't tend to agree is the government should do everything for me. The government do not create wealth, dynamic individuals do - although there are enablers like transport and education. It is up to private individuals to start business and employ people thus generate the money for the economy, not for the government to create everything with money taken from the rest of us. The government doesn't have any money, only tax payers funds.
Yes there are geographical limitations, which is why I support HS2. Nevertheless, ultimately it's the entrepreneurial spirit which will get some areas out of poverty.
Yes some people, those who are ill, or cannot support themselves do need help. And no, we don't all have the god given talents to be rich, and in a civilised society those that less well off should be looked after rather than be forced into a worse situation. However, when push comes to shove, if you have reasonable intelligence, there comes a time to actually look at what goods and services you can provide and get on a start a business, rather than waiting for the lucky break.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
@ 142094 - i was going to use Easington as an Example - didnt want to get to emotional. I know that area VERY well!
I notice in the Northern Echo today that there will only be £20m for the new enterpirse zones. The rest will come from Corporation Tax allowances on the enterprise companies. That should go a long way in helping "regeneration"!
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...rise_zones_will_not_receive_any_upfront_cash/
I notice in the Northern Echo today that there will only be £20m for the new enterpirse zones. The rest will come from Corporation Tax allowances on the enterprise companies. That should go a long way in helping "regeneration"!
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...rise_zones_will_not_receive_any_upfront_cash/
We have family in Hartlepool, used to pass it everytime on the way down.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
And yet when i look around down here in MK i cant not beleive that any able bodied person should be out of work.
I can only contrast that with where i come from and look at the social depravation, poverty, lack of educational achievement, lack of opportunity and prospects and it makes me very sad. Butwe dont have a north asouth divide so we are told AND we are all in it together while not having had it so good!
People tell me MK has problems - cant say i have noticed any particlurly bad areas. I would happily swap the most " deprived" part here for oh lets say Eston or Grangetown in Middlebrough ( there are so many choices!)
Surely we can have a fair spread of pain and benefit?
I can only contrast that with where i come from and look at the social depravation, poverty, lack of educational achievement, lack of opportunity and prospects and it makes me very sad. Butwe dont have a north asouth divide so we are told AND we are all in it together while not having had it so good!
People tell me MK has problems - cant say i have noticed any particlurly bad areas. I would happily swap the most " deprived" part here for oh lets say Eston or Grangetown in Middlebrough ( there are so many choices!)
Surely we can have a fair spread of pain and benefit?
This really is a fascinating debate. I do find myself wondering how things would go though if we still had a Labour government, and they were making cuts to public spending (which of course, we know they'd have had to do). Where would they have cut? What would the reaction have been on here among all of us? Of course, we'll never know because the two Eds can't/won't tell us how they would run the country better. It's all well and good preaching to a march that there is an alternative - well, go on, tell us all what it is! Be specific about how your way would be better in the long run - you may then earn respect, votes and power in that order.
In the meantime though, we'll be subjected to the same tired old cliches about how the Tory party are only interested in the rich and how they're evil and this that and the other. It's pathetic quite frankly, and partly why I have lost all respect for the Labour Party and their supporters.
In the meantime though, we'll be subjected to the same tired old cliches about how the Tory party are only interested in the rich and how they're evil and this that and the other. It's pathetic quite frankly, and partly why I have lost all respect for the Labour Party and their supporters.
Ferret, you have said it all! I could not have put that better myself! Miliband is running about calling the coalition a sham and a disgrace, yet has he given us any indication of policy? No. Has he told us his solution for the economy? No. It's utterly appauling that he was standing in Westminster, rallying all those demonstrators, when at the end of the day it was his party that contributed greatly to the mess by nationalising Northern Rock and becoming utterly dependent on financial services that were already slipping down the drain.
Recently, Harriet Harman was interviewed on the cuts. She failed to name a single cut that Labour would make. She simply said they would 'hold back on capital investment and consolidate back room functions.' This is French for 'I haven't got policies. Our leader has not got policies. We'll just hang in there by standing about slagging off the Tories.' (please forgive me if you consider this word an expletive on the forums)
I am utterly sick of the 'all Tories are rich, have Ferrari's and pencil thin wives' stereotype. It's complete nonsense. The Conservatives have just increased tax on the rich, given £25 a week extra to the poorer families in the UK, given £2,000 to people with ideas for good businesses and slashed the red tape on police officers trying to fight crime. Less form filling, more doing.
Miliband won't give us policy, let's face it. He's too scared. If we handed our credit card to him and his cronies, then God knows what this mess would be like.
Somebody has to fix our economy. Somebody is going to be unpopular for making the tough decisions to fix it, as Mervyn King himself said. But I congratulate an excellent budget by George Osborne and know in my mind that if we are to get out of this mess, the Conservatives are the only one's who will take us out of it properly.
The fact that Labour won't give us their non existent policies proves that they just don't know what to do with themselves. Are we really going to trust in them to look after our banks and economy again?
Miliband, we'd rather be children of Thatcher than sons of Brown!
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313103
Established Member
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I was still at school when the tories came into power in 1979, i got my one and only job in 1980. During that time i saw unemployment rise to 3,000,000, only for it to be wiped out by the yts. No real jobs but unemployment went down so it looked good for the statistics. I saw not only thousands of jobs lost in the coal, steel and print industry, but also thousands of jobs lost on the railways as a direct result, i suppose i should be lucky i wasnt at a freight based depot then otherwise i would have been a statistic like those above.
The one thing i will say is that i would never ever want to a child of T*****R.
So you're supporting what the Conservatives would have done and let it go down the plughole? Instant 6,000 people out of work in the company and a lot more in the local area to boot. Nationalising it was the right decision, and one which more than likely will make a profit for taxpayers when the back is privatised. I don't see you levelling any criticism at any of the other banks which were also bailed out? IMO Northern Rock wouldn't be in the position it is now due to the the fact that the media histeria surrounding the first loan to Northern Rock caused the run on the bank.
When it was announced that Northern Rock was going to be nationalised, the Tories said this was the wrong thing to do, when in fact it turned out to be the best thing to do. Northern Rock received an unfair amount of publicity when other banks who took help from the Treasury did not.
Most of this stems from the fact that in the 80s and 90s the focus turned to banking and not manufacturing as the means to generate income for the country - putting all our eggs in the banking basket was a bad idea then and still is a bad idea, as the recession has seen.
Most of this stems from the fact that in the 80s and 90s the focus turned to banking and not manufacturing as the means to generate income for the country - putting all our eggs in the banking basket was a bad idea then and still is a bad idea, as the recession has seen.
I'm not sure. What we do know on one hand is that the Government will eventually make a tidy profit on Brown's bailout so one could argue that it was shrewd business. On the other hand, you could argue that it may have been better in the long run for a bank to fail - as it stands now, the banks act a though they can take outlandish risks without having to accept the consequences because the taxpayer will always be there as a fallback.
Old Timer
Established Member
So how would YOU have competed with Countries like China, the (Former) Soviet union, India, and the Far East, where manufacturing costs were next to zero because people were willing to work for a few pounds (if that) a week whilst in the UK the Trade Unions were constantly on strike demanding more and more on top of what they were already getting ?
Who exactly would YOU have sold manufactured items to ? You know, the ones which were more expensive from those abroad, manufactured to lower quality than those from abroad because trade Unions were stopping the introduction of new machinery and methods ?
Its all very easy not having lived then, sitting back comfortably off now, and pontificating without background knowledge. Now for the hard bit YOU tell us how YOU would have saved manufacturing given the facts above ?
First of all let me just say that you don't know anything about the background I have come from, therefore you cannot possibly pass comment on what I have seen and what I have not. Please do not insult me by writing comments such as that - I have not and would not write down the assumptions I have about you as I bet they are probably incorrect.
Second, Consett steelworks was in profit for many months before its eventual closure under MacGregor - this fact was not taken into account when it was decided to close it, leaving a vacuum of unemployment in this area ever since. What did the Tories do for that area of County Durham after the steelworks closed? A small industrial estate, employing many times fewer numbers than the steelworks producing crisps and ball bearings. Both of these folded within a few years.
Looking at the output of places such as Redcar, the vast majority of which stayed in the UK when we still had the shipbuilding industries in the North East. Not affected by cheap overseas labour, yet still threatened with closure in the 80s and 90s. Funnily enough Redcar TCP had some of the most modern machinery during those times.
Coal mining may not be manufacturing, but was an important part of a lot of areas until they were systematically closed down. Various reasons were given at the time - uneconomical, over-worked and geological problems ring a bell. In the haste with the Dash For Gas and North Sea oil, the Tories overlooked this industry in order to score a political point. Do you support the idea that coal mine closures were necessary due to 'cheap imports'? Have a look at Ellington Colliery in Northumberland, which was producing coal until after the millenium at a cheaper rate than in Poland and Russia. Also do you dispute the Newcastle University research which shows that there is approximately 300 years worth of coal still left to extract?
Instead what parts of the North East received was funding for call centres (which in a bitter ironic twist have relocated to places such as India) and electronics factories (again shipped out to the Far East), under high levels of government subsidy. Companies such as Nissan wouldn't be here if it wasn't due to the fact that they have received millions in sweetners in order to locate in Washington. It is a testament to the workforce that it is the most productive car assembly plant in Europe. Notice 'assembly plant' - as I said in a previous post this country is good at bringing in foreign investment to assemble products over here (subsidies again), but we do not manufacture products here.
How come Germany can have the largest economy in the EU, a lot of which isn't built on finance but on actual manufacture, especially looking at the situation since the Cold War? Putting all out hopes on London as the money-maker for the rest of the country, all from The City and Canary Wharf companies, really did come and bite us in the backside as the recession has shown. Just wait until the likes of HSBC and Barclays jump ship and go to Hong Kong or somewhere like that, then people will realise how utterly stupid it was.
Old Timer
Established Member
No, quite wrong, I checked out your profile first.
Your response does not address the questions I asked, nor does it even recognise the fact the there was a world recession between 1979 and 1982.
Your facts about Consett are of course wrong. Between 1981 and 1994 362 small busnesses started in Consett with Government support. Although the Steelworks closed in the mid-1980s, by 1988 the value of houses had risen by a third due to demand. During the recession of the early 1990s house prices did not fall in Consett (source : The Independent). Hardly a town dying on its knees then.
Let us look at Germany, a Country which has poor raw materials. 70% of its GDP is from the service Industries of which Banking forms a large part. Manufacturing has only accounted for about 30% and much is now done outside the Country in the Far East. There being much fuss about that in the 1980s and 1990s.
I see you have plenty to shout about but you have produced absolutely nothing to back up what YOU would have done given the situation I have set out for you. A situation that is easily checkable for those who did not live through those times.
Maybe you could now address the questions, please ?
PS I forgot. Many of the Labour Cabinet in Opposition during 1979 to 1985 agree that they would have had to close the steelworks as a result of an international fall in demand, due to the International recession, or do you think that the North East was somehow immune to that ?
I was driving home tonight and what do I hear on the Radio?
'Northern Rock are to make another 680 job cuts this year as the nationalised bank look to head back into the private sector. The bank made another loss of £232 million this month.'
I think we have a conclusion on that matter.
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