• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The Coaliton & The Cuts

Status
Not open for further replies.

strange6

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2011
Messages
1,920
Location
Wigan, Greater manchester
Whoever was in power at the current time would be having to wield the axe. There's a piece in the Independent today that hits the nail on the head - although it's Balls' job to oppose as a member of HM Opposition, you can bet your life he'd be having to make unpopular decisions if it was he in the job and not Osborne.



Interesting that the Labour party haven't come up with a list of what they would have cut but they seem to find it very easy criticising what cuts are being made by other people to get their (labour's) deficit back down to manageable levels.
I'm no fan of any political party but one thing I will never forgive Labour for is the immigration shambles, particularly by not putting working restrictions on the eastern bloc assension in 2003 and our sellout to the EU without any referendum whatsoever. I don't particularly like the tories but I absolutely detest the Labour party. UKIP all the way! lol
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
31,085
Location
Redcar
Britain can take on india and china for manufacturing costs, and it could have in the 70's. New computer aided manufacturing techniques could have taken the price point of british goods, and the quality up, to give favorable market conditions.

They could have but the managerial will wasn't there to do it (I'm not convinced the capital was available either), and it would have required redundancies within the workforce which is something the unions would not have stood for and would have blocked via strike action most probably. It's well and good saying it but it just wasn't going to happen.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,872
Location
UK
It's the fact you can't trust any party that makes me hope the coalition becomes the best Government we have had for years, as it has made the Tories compromise on some of their worst policies, and the Lib Dems have got some of what they wanted.

I also think Cameron and Clegg have been good in not rising to the goading from Labour which is only being done to get the coalition to falter and fail, prompting an early election. That is, until 2015, all Labour can ever expect to achieve in opposition.
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
We'd have to also have people who have pride in doing a good job and with the right skills and intelligence to do a good job.

We've become so dumbed down in recent years that I really fear for our manufacturing industries. We clearly can't seem to do a good job in the service industry either.

Of course we CAN do it, but WILL we do it?

Of course, I keep forgetting that in the last ten years we've been putting out the smartest kids ever - all getting A grades and walking away with loads of degrees. So what if they can't fill in a job application form, speak English properly or add up?!

I even read to today about the problem with finding teachers who can actually do maths. What have we allowed to happen in this country for a generation? (Labour and Conservative both get the blame on this one).

I agree, this is the country of Brunel, Stevenson and Watt for crying out loud! Yet to study science or engineering is seen as uncool for want of a better word. In part I believe it to be partly to do with the attitude of many young people. Not only is it good to be seen as thick but it's also a culture that rewards bad behaviour without catering to the consistently good (Jamie's Dream School on C4 is a perfect example - just imagine how much a keen history student would enjoy a lesson off David Starky! I for one would like a science lesson off Robert Winston although a RE lesson from Richard Dawkins would be bostin.)

As for the amount of students getting A at A level and GCSE I do not think it's the exams getting easier but teaching methods changing due to a results driven system. When schools are judged only on the grades they achieve there is little point in teaching anything but the curriculum which in turn gives higher grades. This government has a chance to devolve power back to schools but instead has blown it on "free" schools which are usually anything but! As a secular atheist it scares me that we could have faith schools like they do in the US where students are told evolution is wrong without any evidence.

But I digress, schools need to be allowed to teach life skills and to use their judgement wisely


Interesting that the Labour party haven't come up with a list of what they would have cut but they seem to find it very easy criticising what cuts are being made by other people to get their (labour's) deficit back down to manageable levels

Which has nothing to with the fact Labour bailed out the banks...
It should also be noted that the Lib Dems pledged to split the investment and "normal" functions of banks and like "we will not raise tuition fees" it's not happened.

That's essentially the job description of opposition, to criticize anything and everything the government do whether good or bad. That being said I believe this was an election to lose, the cuts will have to be made over this parliament and it will be unpopular no matter the speed it was done at.

As for the Lib Dems their future largely depends on the outcome to the AV referendum, I just hope people don't vote no as a sort of protest because anything is better than FPTP.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
As for the Lib Dems their future largely depends on the outcome to the AV referendum, I just hope people don't vote no as a sort of protest because anything is better than FPTP.
FPTP does at least prevent the likes of the BNP ever getting seats.
 

strange6

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2011
Messages
1,920
Location
Wigan, Greater manchester
I agree, this is the country of Brunel, Stevenson and Watt for crying out loud! Yet to study science or engineering is seen as uncool for want of a better word. In part I believe it to be partly to do with the attitude of many young people. Not only is it good to be seen as thick but it's also a culture that rewards bad behaviour without catering to the consistently good (Jamie's Dream School on C4 is a perfect example - just imagine how much a keen history student would enjoy a lesson off David Starky! I for one would like a science lesson off Robert Winston although a RE lesson from Richard Dawkins would be bostin.)

As for the amount of students getting A at A level and GCSE I do not think it's the exams getting easier but teaching methods changing due to a results driven system. When schools are judged only on the grades they achieve there is little point in teaching anything but the curriculum which in turn gives higher grades. This government has a chance to devolve power back to schools but instead has blown it on "free" schools which are usually anything but! As a secular atheist it scares me that we could have faith schools like they do in the US where students are told evolution is wrong without any evidence.

But I digress, schools need to be allowed to teach life skills and to use their judgement wisely




Which has nothing to with the fact Labour bailed out the banks...
It should also be noted that the Lib Dems pledged to split the investment and "normal" functions of banks and like "we will not raise tuition fees" it's not happened.

That's essentially the job description of opposition, to criticize anything and everything the government do whether good or bad. That being said I believe this was an election to lose, the cuts will have to be made over this parliament and it will be unpopular no matter the speed it was done at.

As for the Lib Dems their future largely depends on the outcome to the AV referendum, I just hope people don't vote no as a sort of protest because anything is better than FPTP.

Labour had to bail out the banks because it was Labour who didn't stop them from doing what they were doing i.e giving money away like it was toffee. In fact, Labour positively encouraged this irresponsible practice according to various inside people at the time
 

Railsigns

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2010
Messages
2,754
Labour had to bail out the banks because it was Labour who didn't stop them from doing what they were doing i.e giving money away like it was toffee. In fact, Labour positively encouraged this irresponsible practice according to various inside people at the time
It's no use blaming it all on Labour: It was the Tories who de-regulated the banks, leaving them free to act in the irresponsible way that they did.

By the way, I am not a Labour voter.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,872
Location
UK
Labour had to bail out the banks because it was Labour who didn't stop them from doing what they were doing i.e giving money away like it was toffee. In fact, Labour positively encouraged this irresponsible practice according to various inside people at the time

Exactly, although I suspect the Tories would have done exactly the same. New Labour did seem intent on continuing with Tory policy, and inherited a pretty booming economy when they took power in 1997. Tony Blair didn't see any reason to change it.

Had the Tories remained in power, I wonder if the exact same thing would have happened?

Now, that doesn't excuse Labour one bit. For one, they should have had the common sense to see that excessive lending was a recipe for disaster, as well as promising everyone would get rich through increased house prices (and sod the next generation forced to pay millions for a studio flat in a grotty part of town).

The problem is that when people could borrow WAY beyond their means and keep borrowing more to shift debts around, they were happy. Happy people will keep voting for you.

That's what made Labour lose the election. The bubble burst before the election, and with hindsight I bet Gordon Brown wishes he'd called an election early and been re-elected before the credit crunch hit hard.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
My views on the cuts. Firstly, they could have reduced defence expenditure by decommissioning our nuclear weapons and retiring the Vanguard-class submarines. That way, we would be able to retain sufficient conventional forces to fight a major war if we have to, yet not spend too much money. The Nimrod MRA4 was probably too late to cancel (they'd almost built the things for goodness sake!) and we could have retained the Ark Royal plus the Harriers to fly off her until the Queen Elizabeth could replace her and F-35s could fly off that. There is no current WMD threat to Britain (although there is to some of our allies) from any state. Any likely attack would come from terrorists, and who do we nuke when that happens? No, we need conventional forces to deal with that.

Education was a mistake, since it would be much better to reduce student numbers (unless you read the wrong reports like our government did). Still, the initial mistake was to allow tuition fees in the first place. Thin end of the wedge, as many people said. Well, they were right.

Still, the problem was that nobody looked to create a reserve fund. Do people never learn from history? Always have something to fall back on, you might just need it some day.

I agree, this is the country of Brunel, Stevenson and Watt for crying out loud! Yet to study science or engineering is seen as uncool for want of a better word. In part I believe it to be partly to do with the attitude of many young people. Not only is it good to be seen as thick but it's also a culture that rewards bad behaviour without catering to the consistently good (Jamie's Dream School on C4 is a perfect example - just imagine how much a keen history student would enjoy a lesson off David Starky! I for one would like a science lesson off Robert Winston although a RE lesson from Richard Dawkins would be bostin.)

And we all had to live through it. The problem is that people never seem to realise that they are just one more person in a world full of others, they just see a whole world for them to exploit however they like. It's an old one, and this is just the latest manifestation of it. While they may care about what others think of them, the only ones they want to impress are those who share the same attitudes. There are those who get their heads down and work hard for no reward, and those who do nothing and put all their energy into gaining respect from their peers (which includes terrorising the hard workers). I know what's important in life, and that is to leave this world a better place than when I entered it, but they don't care at all.

Frankly, one day I want to look back and say to myself
"Look where it got them, nowhere!"
 

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
The way I see it is Labour spent more money then they actually had so the current government is reducing this simply by not spending money that isn't there and working to reduce the debt.

It's similar to Mr X having a large debt and having to pay it back by not buying un-needed items.

If Brown didn't take away the regulating powers of the Bank of England then maybe we wouldn't be in this position of having such large debts to pay.

Part of the problem is Labour's fondness for officialdom hence taxpayer's money wasted down the drain.
 

mailman

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2011
Messages
127
For those that can. What about the sick? The disabled? The elderly? Carers?

What about those who are on sickness benefits who arent sick? Face it, labour created the sickness benefit so they could artificially LOWER the unemployment rate and take those hundreds of thousands of otherwise unemployed people off the books and place them somewhere else.

Look, the simple fact is the country is bankrupt and all thanks to labours decade of waste.

Conservative ethos is to go after the poor and demonise them purely for being poor and from a poor family -

Absolute twaddle. Again, the simple message here is DO NOT RELY ON THE GOVERNMENT. GET OFF YOUR ARSE AND LOOK AFTER YOURSELF. ASK YOUR FAMILY. ASK FRIENDS.

Then again, after a decade of labour attacks to destroy the family unit, is it no wonder people turn to the state for help?

Tuition fees raised to £6000 a year without any added protection for students from poorer backgrounds.
Why should university be free? If you want something...pay for it yourself. Why should anyone be forced to pay for someone to do a useless degree in political science for 5 years?

And I dare say that for the vast majority of uni students paying for their education will be their very first life lesson (ie. there are no free lunches).

Secondly, university degree's arent the be all and end all. As Im sure most people here will know some pretty damned stupid graduates (just as no doubt there will be some very good ones). I mean, here's an idea. If you want a uni degree hows about you get off your backside and earn the money to pay for it. You never know, if people did this they may actually gain more useful skills in the process of paying for the degree?

Housing benefit being reduced and social housing having to be a minimum of 80% market rent is a clear attack on the poor.
Sigh...look, why should someone have the right to live anywhere they like and then rely on the tax payer to pay for their 7 bedroom palace?

If you cant afford to live in Chelsea, go and live somewhere else that you CAN afford. This isnt an attack on the poor, its an attack on the shiftless who expect everything but give nothing back.

GDP has increased too and didn't the Conservative party allow people to buy their houses off the council at knock down prices? Perhaps you should be asking yourself why so many (young) people cannot get on the housing ladder today?
If I had my way Id let councils get out of social housing and start looking after those who actually pay council tax. Actually, Id go a bit further and make council tax payers similar to shareholders in their council and give them more of a say in how things are run.

So why are the Conservatives cutting 500,000(!!) public sector jobs? Especially in Labour areas.
Id go even further and reduce the state by, oh I dunno, something like 50%

The problem the conservatives have is that they cant reduce taxes simply because the state has been bloated to rediculous proportions by a decade of labour waste. The government has to keep taxes high simply to pay for the millions of parasites called public servants.

And lets not kid ourselves here...the vast majority of these parasites arent in useful roles like police or nurses or teachers.

In all honesty I expected exactly this kind of behaviour from the Tories. It's the Lib Dems who I have special hatred for, selling their soul for power. David Cameron is very clever (and has good taste in football ;) ) - he's managed to deflect public anger onto Nick Clegg.

Lets not kid ourselves...the clowns in power now are no different from the clowns who just got kicked out. The only difference is the official colour of the party in power.

Mailman
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,220
Location
UK
They could have but the managerial will wasn't there to do it (I'm not convinced the capital was available either), and it would have required redundancies within the workforce which is something the unions would not have stood for and would have blocked via strike action most probably. It's well and good saying it but it just wasn't going to happen.

Ill give you a point on that one :) A brand new HAAS % axis milling machine is about a quater of a million these days, compared to a lathe being say... 25 grand for somthing good? (some little peices of cr*p for 6-7 grand but even collages dont want to have those) and since there wouldnt have been a massive demand for existing products (at their existing price point) then new cheaper products would have been required (probs taking about 5 years to get them all in, a standard car takes at least one year of development so for a manufacturer to update their range it would take a while) then the company would have a situation where they can keep all their staff on, wioth their new machines, and undercut their competitors and make lots of monies. However the chances of a) getting that investment b)getting it past the unions in principle, and c) keeping the unions happy whilst the new products are udner development. are pretty unlikely :(
 

HST Power

Established Member
Joined
25 Nov 2010
Messages
3,704
Some of us are intelligent enough to realise that "left by Labour" / "inherited from Labour" doesn't mean the same as "caused by Labour". Tories can't blame Labour for the "terrible mess", because it would be dishonest to do so. The most they can do is to use phrases like "this mess we inherited from Labour" and hope that less intelligent people will interpret that as "this mess that was caused by Labour". Obviously you've fallen for the Tory spin. Better luck next time.

I have not fallen into any Tory spin. As you will see if you click the link I have placed at the bottom of this post, Miliband said he was sorry for the near collapse of Northern Rock, the endless losses of jobs and nationalisation of the bank. These were big factors that contributed to the big mess, and seeing as the new Labour leader has just admitted that, it looks like you are the one who's fallen into a spin.

Better luck next time!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Labours-role-financial-crisis.html?ITO=1490
 

passmore

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
341
Location
Milton Keynes
mailman said:
What about those who are on sickness benefits who arent sick? Face it, labour created the sickness benefit so they could artificially LOWER the unemployment rate and take those hundreds of thousands of otherwise unemployed people off the books and place them somewhere else.

Look, the simple fact is the country is bankrupt and all thanks to labours decade of waste.

You're beginning to sound like a Coalition MP, or for that matter, an MP, blaming the government before your own. If the sickness benefit was created by Labour, why can't, or for that matter aren't, the Coalition government reverse it?
The simple fact is, as you call it, the benefits system is not rigorous enough to check between those that are genuinely sick and those that are trying to defraud the system, possibly using the benefit as an extra source of income. Removing the sickness benefits as a way of getting more people back into employment is not the way to do it.



mailman said:
Absolute twaddle. Again, the simple message here is DO NOT RELY ON THE GOVERNMENT. GET OFF YOUR ARSE AND LOOK AFTER YOURSELF. ASK YOUR FAMILY. ASK FRIENDS.

Then again, after a decade of labour attacks to destroy the family unit, is it no wonder people turn to the state for help?

So first you say to him that the sickness benefit was created to artificially lower the unemployment figures in this country, and then you say 'don't rely on the state'. Going by what you said, it seems that lots of people were relying on the state during the Labour years due to the benefits system being so easy to take advantage of. Can you see where your logic evaporates? I can.

mailman said:
Why should university be free? If you want something...pay for it yourself. Why should anyone be forced to pay for someone to do a useless degree in political science for 5 years?

Because, once again, you assume that taxpayers are funding for the university education of someone they don't know. That's a gross misconception and has been debunked time after time. The only people who fund a university degree is the student wishing to study at that university doing that particular degree.

mailman said:
And I dare say that for the vast majority of uni students paying for their education will be their very first life lesson (ie. there are no free lunches).

Secondly, university degree's arent the be all and end all. As Im sure most people here will know some pretty damned stupid graduates (just as no doubt there will be some very good ones). I mean, here's an idea. If you want a uni degree hows about you get off your backside and earn the money to pay for it. You never know, if people did this they may actually gain more useful skills in the process of paying for the degree?

It depends what career you are looking for as to whether a university degree is the 'be all and end all'. Asking graduates to 'get off their backsides' prior to studying at university is as illogical as your remark about not asking the state for help earlier.
That's why we have student loan companies in this country designed to help poorer students. They are not expected to pay back a loan until they start earning a certain amount of money in a job after university. Please start to realise that not everyone is as fortunate as you seem to be in terms of their background.
 

Yew

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2011
Messages
7,220
Location
UK
I would say decommisionign the trafalgar class would have been more tactical, The astute class is coming along nicely, and the vanguards would do the hunter/killer role suitably, yet still maintaining the nuclear capacity.

Its just a shame the eurofighters wherent further along, the tornado squadrons could have been decommisioned, and kept the harriers on at least one aircraft carrier (maybe modify our helecopter carrier to hold harriers? Its essensially an Invincable class built to Civilian shipping specs, without a ramp.
 

BlythPower

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
864
Location
Kenilworth
As regards people being moved from unemployment benefit to disability benefit in order to give the impression of falling unemployment, I seem to recall that started in the 1980s under that well known Labour prime minister Margaret Thatcher...
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,872
Location
UK
Aren't we starting to test people a bit more thoroughly to see if they really qualify for disability benefits?
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
What about those who are on sickness benefits who arent sick? Face it, labour created the sickness benefit so they could artificially LOWER the unemployment rate and take those hundreds of thousands of otherwise unemployed people off the books and place them somewhere else.

Labour reformed the sickness benefit in case it escaped your attention and while poorly implemented it is reducing the number of claimants. A quick google search will tell you the ESA appeal rate is sky high which is symptomatic of wanting to reduce the number of sick.
The coalition want to severely curtail if not eliminate the mobility component of DLA

Look, the simple fact is the country is bankrupt and all thanks to labours decade of waste.

Once again nothing to do with bailing out the bankers. What was Labour supposed to do when the inherited very little manufacturing and privatised services - it's like selling the family assets and wondering why your children are broke!

Absolute twaddle. Again, the simple message here is DO NOT RELY ON THE GOVERNMENT. GET OFF YOUR ARSE AND LOOK AFTER YOURSELF. ASK YOUR FAMILY. ASK FRIENDS.

"Get on your bike and look for work!" - sound familiar?

It's really that simple isn't it? Forget a lack of experience of youth, the fact that tens if not hundreds are after every job going. What are you supposed to do?
Aside from jobs this is essentially the message of the Big Society - people volunteer to run local services using their own money. The government can then cut jobs and money. Why are Labour areas disproportionally hit by "budget reductions" (which are cuts to anyone but the hardest Tory)

Then again, after a decade of labour attacks to destroy the family unit, is it no wonder people turn to the state for help?

What should the family be like? A mother and a father who are married, one boy and one girl who sit down at the table with each other every night, eat a home-cooked meal and who go to Church every Sunday? Labour introduced Civil Partnerships finally allowing homosexual couples much the same rights as married ones
To the government's credit they are making it easier to adopt/foster different race children to the parents.

How would the Coalition enforce the traditional nuclear family? Through Murdoch, Jeremy Hunt and there cronies making a mockery of the competition commission?

Why should university be free? If you want something...pay for it yourself. Why should anyone be forced to pay for someone to do a useless degree in political science for 5 years?

What about someone studying Maths, Science or Engineering? University should be free for all (not just for Scotland) albeit with greater conditions on entry. Graduates will contribute to the economy, especially if the jobs are there for them. Naturally in the current economic climate this isn't feasible.

And I dare say that for the vast majority of uni students paying for their education will be their very first life lesson (ie. there are no free lunches).

Except for those who's daddy is rich enough to put them through (quite possibly on his own inheritance)

Secondly, university degree's arent the be all and end all. As Im sure most people here will know some pretty damned stupid graduates (just as no doubt there will be some very good ones). I mean, here's an idea. If you want a uni degree hows about you get off your backside and earn the money to pay for it. You never know, if people did this they may actually gain more useful skills in the process of paying for the degree?

I concur

Sigh...look, why should someone have the right to live anywhere they like and then rely on the tax payer to pay for their 7 bedroom palace?

If you cant afford to live in Chelsea, go and live somewhere else that you CAN afford. This isnt an attack on the poor, its an attack on the shiftless who expect everything but give nothing back.

Apologies if my point was unclear, with the 80% market value I was referring to the working poor (who make up a substantial amount of council tax benefit claimants) in poorer areas. I agree that the taxpayer should not pay for a family with 7 kids to live in Chelsea, however, much like Richard Wilson's documentary about the railway on dispatches it's just a headline grabber and belies the full story.
The average house price has been pushed up (due to Labour allowing housing to be the answer to all life's problems) still making it hard to do so.

If I had my way Id let councils get out of social housing and start looking after those who actually pay council tax.

I'd keep them council run for at least they are directly accountable at the ballot box, look what private enterprise has gone for energy. Labour would not have had to introduce the Winter Fuel Allowance if they could have power over the energy market. That being said it was typical of Labour that they'd take with one hand and give a little back after.

Actually, Id go a bit further and make council tax payers similar to shareholders in their council and give them more of a say in how things are run.

I would like to see how that would work, it's a sound idea in theory.

Id go even further and reduce the state by, oh I dunno, something like 50%

The problem the conservatives have is that they cant reduce taxes simply because the state has been bloated to rediculous proportions by a decade of labour waste. The government has to keep taxes high simply to pay for the millions of parasites called public servants.

And lets not kid ourselves here...the vast majority of these parasites arent in useful roles like police or nurses or teachers.

50% would be interesting but exactly what would go? It's very easy to say "public servant parasites" and it makes an excellent headline but having worked in the public sector it's largely a myth. The secretary of state would have to do the sacking directly, leaving it to regional public servants would simply entail those who actually do nothing would survive due to their connections. Just before I was made redundant there were fears that there simply wouldn't be enough staff to do the job and so expensive recruitment would just continue again.



Lets not kid ourselves...the clowns in power now are no different from the clowns who just got kicked out. The only difference is the official colour of the party in power.

Mailman

Agreed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Aren't we starting to test people a bit more thoroughly to see if they really qualify for disability benefits?

Yes, at least with incapacity benefit. Medical assessments for DLA is yet to come
 

mailman

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2011
Messages
127
You're beginning to sound like a Coalition MP, or for that matter, an MP, blaming the government before your own...blah blah blah

Funny how after your little rant you end up agreeing with me. Hope you feel better.

it seems that lots of people were relying on the state during the Labour years due to the benefits system being so easy to take advantage of. Can you see where your logic evaporates? I can.

Thats exactly right...the benefits system was so easy to be taken advantage of and of course thats exactly what people did. They took advantage of it and once locked in that cycle of relying on the state they were captured for life by the Government.

Because, once again, you assume that taxpayers are funding for the university education of someone they don't know. That's a gross misconception and has been debunked time after time. The only people who fund a university degree is the student wishing to study at that university doing that particular degree.
Oh...you telling me that absolutely NO tax payer money has or is being sunk in to Universities? Absolutely none?

It depends what career you are looking for as to whether a university degree is the 'be all and end all'. Asking graduates to 'get off their backsides' prior to studying at university is as illogical as your remark about not asking the state for help earlier.
Ah yes...how dare I expect people to pay for themslves...to get off their arses and work for the things they want. Of course, its all so straight forward now. Lets just give everything anyone wants, irrespective of cost, when ever they want it without charge. Yeah, thats a good idea :D

That's why we have student loan companies in this country designed to help poorer students. They are not expected to pay back a loan until they start earning a certain amount of money in a job after university. Please start to realise that not everyone is as fortunate as you seem to be in terms of their background.

Ah, the power of the politics of envy. Poor, poor students. So down trodden and abused by the evil rich people.

Look, this country doesnt have a real under class of poor people. What we do have though is a generation of people who just expect and demand and take without thought or consideration.

Its going to be a tough road for people to travel but eventually, when you realise that relying on the state is not such a good idea, this country might actually start to get some where.

Mailman
 

passmore

Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
341
Location
Milton Keynes
Every country has an under-class of poor people, which you might be right has become exacerbated by a generation of 'takers' in this country. But to say that they are the same type of people is symptomatic of someone stuck in the past where there were far less 'takers' and more 'givers', and attitudes to disabled people were far more indifferent than they are today.
The only way to restore such a society is to make living, or 'sponging' as it has been called, off the state much more difficult by introducing rigorous tests for sickness benefits. Those that are long-term disabled will probably baulk at your suggestion that they somehow 'take' from society but 'give' nothing. How can you 'give' to society when you spend 365 days a year bedridden?
 

mailman

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2011
Messages
127
Labour reformed the sickness benefit in case it escaped your attention and while poorly implemented it is reducing the number of claimants. A quick google search will tell you the ESA appeal rate is sky high which is symptomatic of wanting to reduce the number of sick.
The coalition want to severely curtail if not eliminate the mobility component of DLA
I guess the problem is SS4, that we shouldnt have been in this situation in the first place. Trying to fix another broken Labour mechanism that was used to hide the true extent of the level of unemployment is just another problem this and the next government will have to deal with...thus taking time, effort and energy out of combating real issues facing this country.

Once again nothing to do with bailing out the bankers. What was Labour supposed to do when the inherited very little manufacturing and privatised services - it's like selling the family assets and wondering why your children are broke!
Did labour come to power and benefit from the strong economy started by the tories?

"Get on your bike and look for work!" - sound familiar?
Sounds like pretty sound advice actually. Get off yer behind and do something for yourself. Cant go wrong there really :)

It's really that simple isn't it? Forget a lack of experience of youth, the fact that tens if not hundreds are after every job going. What are you supposed to do?

Gee, I dunno but there seem to be an aweful lot of foreigners working in the fields picking your brussel sprouts and celery these days. I contend that the jobs are out there but because todays ****less youth expect to be paid billions from the get go, farmers and others have to look for other societies who are prepared to work hard.

Aside from jobs this is essentially the message of the Big Society - people volunteer to run local services using their own money. The government can then cut jobs and money. Why are Labour areas disproportionally hit by "budget reductions" (which are cuts to anyone but the hardest Tory)
I dunno but maybe, if that really is the case, the reason labour areas have been hit is because they benefitted the most from a decade of labour waste.

What should the family be like? A mother and a father who are married, one boy and one girl who sit down at the table with each other every night, eat a home-cooked meal and who go to Church every Sunday? Labour introduced Civil Partnerships finally allowing homosexual couples much the same rights as married ones
A family is a family however under a decade of labour waste it seems that the traditional family unit of mum, dad and the kids was viewed for some reason a racist/bigotted/biased statement...hence labours deliberate destruction of that unit as a socially cohesive unit.

To the government's credit they are making it easier to adopt/foster different race children to the parents.
Except if you are a catholic or have expressed christian views.

How would the Coalition enforce the traditional nuclear family? Through Murdoch, Jeremy Hunt and there cronies making a mockery of the competition commission?
Although utterly irrelevant, what you seem to forget is that the country already has a far more insidious organisation that controls what this country gets through the news...and it does that with a near £4 BILLION budget (yes, Im talking about the BBC).

Murdoch, unlike the BBC, has to actually compete on the open market. If you dont like anything his channels carry, you dont have to pay for it...unlike the hard leftist, hate this country and whities but love homos and terrorist BBC.

What about someone studying Maths, Science or Engineering? University should be free for all (not just for Scotland) albeit with greater conditions on entry. Graduates will contribute to the economy, especially if the jobs are there for them. Naturally in the current economic climate this isn't feasible.
Or...maybe only some "useful" degrees like engineering could be free but if you want to do some waste of time degree called political science or the like, then you pay for it.

Except for those who's daddy is rich enough to put them through (quite possibly on his own inheritance)
And the problem is what? Once again, the politics of envy rears its ugly head. If you have parents who care enough to pay for your university education then lucky you.


Labour would not have had to introduce the Winter Fuel Allowance if they could have power over the energy market. That being said it was typical of Labour that they'd take with one hand and give a little back after.
Labour probably wouldnt have had to do much if this countries power generation ability hadnt been purposely allowed to die off...and all in the name of Mann Made Global Warming (tm).

Id rather this and every other government spent its time concentrating on energy security instead of interferring in a christian couples desire to foster children!

I would like to see how that would work, it's a sound idea in theory.
For this to work, it would require people to take an interest in how their council is run and then those councillors who dont measure up or dont carry out the will of the people being voted out instead of being voted in because of the party they belong to.

And for this reason, is why I believe the tea party movement in the states caused such a political slaughtering of Democrats...because the people took control and put people in power who would listen to them. Dont forget that under the big headline of the Democrats handing power back to the Republicans there was a much bigger but less seen revolution, but this was at the governor level where pretty much every Governor is now a republican.

But yeah, chances of anything like that happening in this country? Probably less than zero.

50% would be interesting but exactly what would go?
Dunno but they could start with all those non-jobs created by labour. Lets start with all those elf and safety roles!

Regards

Mailman
 

SS4

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2011
Messages
8,589
Location
Birmingham
I guess the problem is SS4, that we shouldnt have been in this situation in the first place. Trying to fix another broken Labour mechanism that was used to hide the true extent of the level of unemployment is just another problem this and the next government will have to deal with...thus taking time, effort and energy out of combating real issues facing this country.

The issue with unemployment is that all parties tend to use underhand tricks to massage the figures, send someone off on a mandatory training course and they're no longer classed as unemployed. I would like to see an honest appraisal yet it would be political suicide.

Did labour come to power and benefit from the strong economy started by the tories?

Quite possibly, I don't remember it too well. On the same theme weren't the railways privatised in 1994 netting the government a lot of money?


Sounds like pretty sound advice actually. Get off yer behind and do something for yourself. Cant go wrong there really :)

Up to a point yet how far are you expected to travel? Remember that increased distance will require a higher salary to justify the commute.

Gee, I dunno but there seem to be an aweful lot of foreigners working in the fields picking your brussel sprouts and celery these days. I contend that the jobs are out there but because todays ****less youth expect to be paid billions from the get go, farmers and others have to look for other societies who are prepared to work hard.

Unemployment is highest (pro rata) in London and the West Midlands, both known for there rolling fields of vegetables.

I dunno but maybe, if that really is the case, the reason labour areas have been hit is because they benefitted the most from a decade of labour waste.

Or investment depending which side of the line you lie. Labour areas tend to be poorer areas not because of a dependency trap and cycle (while true in a few cases it's far too rare to cite as a primary source) but because Labour promised to invest in their region or they were the least worst option. It's much the same as affluent areas voting Conservative because that party fits their needs the most.


A family is a family however under a decade of labour waste it seems that the traditional family unit of mum, dad and the kids was viewed for some reason a racist/bigotted/biased statement...hence labours deliberate destruction of that unit as a socially cohesive unit.

If you're referring to political correctness then I must agree that Labour took that way too far. They managed to get in a load of immigrants by strongly implying that if you questioned it you were racist (immigration is one area where I agree with the Conservatives)

Except if you are a catholic or have expressed christian views.

Oh dear, has the Christian persecution complex come out to play?

Although utterly irrelevant, what you seem to forget is that the country already has a far more insidious organisation that controls what this country gets through the news...and it does that with a near £4 BILLION budget (yes, Im talking about the BBC).

Murdoch, unlike the BBC, has to actually compete on the open market. If you dont like anything his channels carry, you dont have to pay for it...unlike the hard leftist, hate this country and whities but love homos and terrorist BBC.

The BBC is more balanced than most care to admit although I don't think anyone is arguing that it's not more left than right. Murdoch does have to compete on the "open" market albeit with active government collusion (re: his takeover of sky).
The Left doesn't hate this country and whites. The ultimate on the left is socialism where everyone is treated equally, of course it never happens in reality.

Or...maybe only some "useful" degrees like engineering could be free but if you want to do some waste of time degree called political science or the like, then you pay for it.

Agreed.

And the problem is what? Once again, the politics of envy rears its ugly head. If you have parents who care enough to pay for your university education then lucky you.

It's not so much those parents who've worked hard to put their children into university but those who have waltzed in while many bright, poor students are put off.

Labour probably wouldnt have had to do much if this countries power generation ability hadnt been purposely allowed to die off...and all in the name of Mann Made Global Warming (tm).

Purposely allowed to die off? IIRC it was the Tories who sold it and now look at how much we have to pay.

Id rather this and every other government spent its time concentrating on energy security instead of interferring in a christian couples desire to foster children!

Me too, energy security needs to be looked into sooner rather than later. If that happens to be renewable all the better because short of North Sea Oil and what's left of the coal we have to import it all.

As for Christian couples fostering I assume this will apply equally to all religions, atheism and agnostics. I can understand the interference because it's the council's duty to ensure the child is brought up well.

When it comes to religion I would to see us follow the French and go down the route of complete secularisation - making religion pay it's way will certainly help reduce the deficit.

For this to work, it would require people to take an interest in how their council is run and then those councillors who dont measure up or dont carry out the will of the people being voted out instead of being voted in because of the party they belong to.

I would like to see that.

And for this reason, is why I believe the tea party movement in the states caused such a political slaughtering of Democrats...because the people took control and put people in power who would listen to them. Dont forget that under the big headline of the Democrats handing power back to the Republicans there was a much bigger but less seen revolution, but this was at the governor level where pretty much every Governor is now a republican.

That is a country where they bitterly resisted Obama's efforts to provide basic healthcare for all instead preferring to let the poor and the pre-existing condition people die. The tea party are little better than Christian fundamentalists, a group who oppose abortion but block stem cell research for those who are already here. 73% of them disapprove of Obama talking to Muslim countries (Presumably this means they'd rather bomb them).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/...re-than_n_597968.html?ref=fb&src=sp#sb=164043


But yeah, chances of anything like that happening in this country? Probably less than zero.

Thank goodness!


Dunno but they could start with all those non-jobs created by labour. Lets start with all those elf and safety roles!

Regards

Mailman

OK, but remember you'll need some to enforce basic safety law and that's still not 50%. The problem with non-jobs is those in them have built themselves a cosy nest and it will need direct intervention from an outside body. I would love to see some people get the sack for doing nothing and taking advantage.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
Up to a point yet how far are you expected to travel? Remember that increased distance will require a higher salary to justify the commute.
Also the only jobs you are likely to be able to walk straight into are minimum wage factory jobs. The minimum wage is not a living wage and you will be lucky to pay your living expenses out of it never mind travel costs.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,872
Location
UK
The minimum wage seems quite good, and a positive for the last Government.

If you up the minimum wage too much, you just get those who are deemed to be more qualified and skilled wanting more money, which pushes up pay, inflation and the cost of living.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
The minimum wage seems quite good, and a positive for the last Government.
It is still not a living wage but at least it's better than what we would have got had the Tories remained in power in 1997.
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
The minimum wage seems quite good, and a positive for the last Government.

If you up the minimum wage too much, you just get those who are deemed to be more qualified and skilled wanting more money, which pushes up pay, inflation and the cost of living.

I agree with the minimum wage and they closed some early loopholes like bars/restaurants including tips as wages, problem is we are seeing a lot of companies trying to get round it now by calling jobs 'apprenticeships' or 'educational courses'.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
As regards people being moved from unemployment benefit to disability benefit in order to give the impression of falling unemployment, I seem to recall that started in the 1980s under that well known Labour prime minister Margaret Thatcher...

This may sound strange, but Maggie, who contaminated the Conservative Party for years, was the most "liberal" Conservative leader for decades. Everything she did for the free market and reduction in state industry was Gladstonian free-market liberalism. Her favourite economists, Freidman and von Hayek were city liberals. Socially and morally, she was a conservative, but on the economy she was a liberal. That's probably why Major, Blair and especially Brown followed her, they thought that it was a good idea.

These are the opinions of a country Tory, who distrusts the City and everything to do with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I would say decommisionign the trafalgar class would have been more tactical, The astute class is coming along nicely, and the vanguards would do the hunter/killer role suitably, yet still maintaining the nuclear capacity.

Its just a shame the eurofighters wherent further along, the tornado squadrons could have been decommisioned, and kept the harriers on at least one aircraft carrier (maybe modify our helecopter carrier to hold harriers? Its essensially an Invincable class built to Civilian shipping specs, without a ramp.

I partly agree with this, although the main reason why the Vanguards don't act as attack boats (although they would probably be good at it) is that you don't want to risk you deterrent by getting too close to an enemy. One idea might be to remove the missiles and convert them to SSGNs, something like the Oscars, by fitting seven Tomahawks into each tube. Then you have a capable attack boat with 112 conventional missiles, very useful if we could park one off Tripoli now. Trouble is, that would cost a lot for only four boats with a limited life ahead of them. This might balance out with decommissioning costs.

I like the idea of through-deck ships in a flexible role, since both the Ark and Ocean could act as either one or the other. The important thing is that we would retain our blue-water capability. Essentially, we need the capability to fight and win wars if we have to, something that a nuclear deterrent does not give us. It might stop us losing to a superior force, but it won't help us recapture lost ground (if someone takes an island from us) or calm down a tense situation, or support an oppressed population (as we are trying to do now) or hunt terrorists and pirates.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
30,872
Location
UK
I agree with the minimum wage and they closed some early loopholes like bars/restaurants including tips as wages, problem is we are seeing a lot of companies trying to get round it now by calling jobs 'apprenticeships' or 'educational courses'.

The businesses doing this should be named and shamed. It happens a LOT in media now, with people expected to work for free to get experience and the promise of a job - or build an impressive CV.

Of course, the job probably doesn't exist.

Secondly, if I saw the CV of someone who had worked all over for free, I'd see them as being a bit of a mug.
 

strange6

Established Member
Joined
9 Jan 2011
Messages
1,920
Location
Wigan, Greater manchester
The minimum wage seems quite good, and a positive for the last Government.

If you up the minimum wage too much, you just get those who are deemed to be more qualified and skilled wanting more money, which pushes up pay, inflation and the cost of living.

You're absolutely correct in what you say. Having said that, you would still be able to claim for certain benefits, like housing benefit (full or part-of your rent / mortgage), if you worked 40 hours on the minimum wage. Don't know what the exact numbers are though
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top