TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[island]

Another is those who wish to use a zonal season ticket whilst making occasional incremental journeys outside the zones paid for.

 

[hkstudent]

I think, like most things, the situation is rarely black and white enough to conclusively pin blame either way.

Was the withdrawal of day travelcards the only way in which TfL could make savings following a reduction in funding? I very much doubt it.

TfL have already attempted multiple cost cutting measures since COVID as required by the government, and there’s a commitment required to cut further more cost per year.

There are not much measures left that can cut cost while not affecting London residents, or over reducing the benefit to their staff to the point that resulting a massive exodus.

If affecting non Londoners, TfL doesn’t need to worry about it. In fact, DfT as part of the national government having the national mandate agreed to the proposal means that at least the “will of the national people” agree to that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 May 2023 ==

A green light is shown on the pad as well as the bleep.

If you're deafblind, you almost certainly have a Freedom Pass so it doesn't matter.



This only affects enthusiasts in practice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==



That doesn't allow them to remove most of the expensive-to-maintain magstripe reading machines on the gatelines, though. Abolishing paper tickets (and finding another method for cross London transfers at the small number of stations involved) does.

If you can remove most of the paper day tickets, then at least half or even more ticket barriers don’t need to install that expensive component, and meanwhile speeding up gateline flow as having less papers to go through

 

[bicbasher]

Londoners receiving certain means tested benefits and Universal Credit are also entitled to a Bus & Tram Photocard valid for 6 months which gives 1/2 price bus fares and bus pass period tickets on Oyster.

Jobseekers can also add the Jobcentre Plus photocard for 1/2 price on all modes added to Oyster. (It's also valid for discount paper rail tickets)

Neither of these discounts can be added to a contactless card currently.

 

[Skie]

A receipt can be downloaded from the TfL website. Gives much more detail than a paper ticket, so better from an expenses point of view as it details the exact journey taken and at what time.

Better in terms of more detailed, but this policy is still retrograde for a business as it generates double the administration work for the same journey. As an example when a large enterprise is involved:

Company has a travel portal. Users or group bookers must buy train tickets, hotels, flights etc via the company portal. Everyone has an account, or regular travellers do and some specialised users have an account that lets you book on behalf of others. You book your travel, get it printed in the office, ToD or e-ticket and that is it. No expense claim required, so no extra administration overhead involved for anyone. Paper travelcards are just a normal ticket, nothing special about them.

Contactless = Everyone who travels needs to submit an expense claim if they use their own card, or to reconcile their corporate card if they have one. It also needs their manager to validate the expense claim, as well as the finance team. The card issuer needs to be paid, and fraud needs to be checked for via random sampling or auditing.

Oyster = Purchasing the Oyster in the first place means an expense claim, then using it would require some form of logging/uploading the journey history and then topping up the card is another expense claim. It can be incredibly hard to justify top-ups for future travel as finance teams don't like vague costs. For a long time our usage of Oyster cards was banned outright because of this.

Personally, I have a corporate card and am used to doing a monthly expense claim by using the TFL contactless journey report. It takes me 10 minutes each month, which does add up across an organisation that has hundreds of trips into London a week. But the real issue is when I book group travel for an event where 60+ people who rarely travel need to get into London: it's trivial to buy 60 travelcards via the travel portal than it ever will be to get each person to tap their card, and never mind trying to organise enough Oysters to cover them!

It's unlikely we'll ever use London as a base for events in the future if just the act of getting our staff there becomes a nightmare (never mind London event hire prices starting to get silly). It's a foolish step to toss a useful product out and expect people to rely on significantly more complicated ones, especially when it's going to increase the burden on businesses too. I suspect TFL actually make more money when we buy Travelcards as we rarely do enough in-London travel to even hit the daily cap.

Ho hum.

 

[bicbasher]

Oyster = Purchasing the Oyster in the first place means an expense claim, then using it would require some form of logging/uploading the journey history and then topping up the card is another expense claim. It can be incredibly hard to justify top-ups for future travel as finance teams don't like vague costs. For a long time our usage of Oyster cards was banned outright because of this.

I used to have submit mini Oyster statements which I used to get from staffed LU ticket offices when they had them to cover my PAYG costs to work along with an expenses form which was then given to the finance officer.

Once LU closed the ticket offices, I had to grab them from TfL using the Oyster & Contactless site as a PDF and print it off.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

It can be incredibly hard to justify top-ups for future travel as finance teams don't like vague costs. For a long time our usage of Oyster cards was banned outright because of this.

Can you not top up with your own monetary funds and claim back for individual journeys as and when you take them? Whilst I understand this does effectively mean you are loaning money to your employer between the top-up and journey being undertaken, it would at least ease the vague cost fear.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to have submit mini Oyster statements which I used to get from staffed LU ticket offices when they had them to cover my PAYG costs to work along with an expenses form which was then given to the finance officer.

Once LU closed the ticket offices, I had to grab them from TfL using the Oyster & Contactless site as a PDF and print it off.

It is probably true to say, though, that the intersection of "people claiming business expenses" and "people without access to a computer" is an empty set.

 

[Hadders]

If you can remove most of the paper day tickets, then at least half or even more ticket barriers don’t need to install that expensive component, and meanwhile speeding up gateline flow as having less papers to go through

No reason why One Day Travelcards need to be issued on paper. They could be fulfilled to Oyster or to an ITSO smartcard, as Travelcard seasons already are.

 

[Deerfold]

If you can remove most of the paper day tickets, then at least half or even more ticket barriers don’t need to install that expensive component, and meanwhile speeding up gateline flow as having less papers to go through

Except that Period Travelcards are still issued on paper and this could be achieved by just moving Day Travelcards to ITSO or allowing them to be stored on Oyster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Except that Period Travelcards are still issued on paper and this could be achieved by just moving Day Travelcards to ITSO or allowing them to be stored on Oyster.

I would see it as fairly likely that period Travelcards will become ITSO only in due course, probably once a solution has been worked out for cross-London transfers on through tickets. The savings from being able to do away with the magstripe kit on gatelines are significant.

 

[Haywain]

I would see it as fairly likely that period Travelcards will become ITSO only in due course, probably once a solution has been worked out for cross-London transfers on through tickets. The savings from being able to do away with the magstripe kit on gatelines are significant.

I would see that being a natural follow up to removing day travelcards.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would see it as fairly likely that period Travelcards will become ITSO only in due course, probably once a solution has been worked out for cross-London transfers on through tickets. The savings from being able to do away with the magstripe kit on gatelines are significant.

They haven't been able to be issued on paper since last June.

 

[SynthD]

Was the withdrawal of day travelcards the only way in which TfL could make savings following a reduction in funding? I very much doubt it.

The funding deal set out some of the actions to be taken by the mayor, including ULEZ, which was invented by the mayors office a few terms ago in 2013.

 

[crablab]

I would see that being a natural follow up to removing day travelcards

Why? It's perfectly possible to issue day travelcards onto ITSO.

 

[Haywain]

Why? It's perfectly possible to issue day travelcards onto ITSO.

In case uou hadn't noticed, TfL wants to abolish day travelcards.

 

[hkstudent]

Except that Period Travelcards are still issued on paper and this could be achieved by just moving Day Travelcards to ITSO or allowing them to be stored on Oyster.

All period travelcards are required to be sold on ITSO or oystercard since June last year.

 

[Deerfold]

All period travelcards are required to be sold on ITSO or oystercard since June last year.

Thanks - it's been a while since I've bought one.

 

[Skie]

Can you not top up with your own monetary funds and claim back for individual journeys as and when you take them? Whilst I understand this does effectively mean you are loaning money to your employer between the top-up and journey being undertaken, it would at least ease the vague cost fear.

Personally, yes. Can I ask the 60 attendees of an event I’m organising to do it? Nope. Some would I’m sure, but there will be others who won’t want to travel if it means doing that. Even if they all did, then that’s 60 more expense claims going in, many by people who may never make them normally so a pain in the bum and a waste of more time.

I’m not sure what the solution is other than status quo.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally, yes. Can I ask the 60 attendees of an event I’m organising to do it? Nope. Some would I’m sure, but there will be others who won’t want to travel if it means doing that.

If there are genuinely people who wouldn't put in an expense claim to attend an event (or, if they're lazy, just not bother claiming, which saves you money), then your event probably isn't worth attending anyway.

 

[Alex365Dash]

All period travelcards are required to be sold on ITSO or oystercard since June last year.

Does this include outboundary ones? As far as I’m aware, this change only applied to inboundary period Travelcards, although I would be entirely unsurprised if the same was to happen to outboundary period Travelcards at some point in the future.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Does this include outboundary ones? As far as I’m aware, this change only applied to inboundary period Travelcards, although I would be entirely unsurprised if the same was to happen to outboundary period Travelcards at some point in the future.

Currently only inboundary

 

[VauxhallandI]

If there are genuinely people who wouldn't put in an expense claim to attend an event (or, if they're lazy, just not bother claiming, which saves you money), then your event probably isn't worth attending anyway.

You seem to have an answer to everything.

I appreciate the pain the poster is making, our expenses system is a right PITA to use and actively puts me off using it and therefore discourages me from going to things I might be on the fence about attending.

 

[crablab]

In case uou hadn't noticed, TfL wants to abolish day travelcards.

Yes...but I don't see how the two are linked or dependant on each other.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Yes...but I don't see how the two are linked or dependant on each other.

It's not about ticket format it's about revenue

 

[crablab]

It's not about ticket format it's about revenue

I'm aware...

I think we're talking at cross purposes.

I would see that being a natural follow up to removing day travelcards.

Let me rephrase: how is the removal of day travelcards a precursor to switching period travelcards to ITSO only? Since all currently available travelcards could be issued entirely on ITSO right now, if desired.

Since there is a requirement to provide cross London (Maltese cross) magstripe support, I don't really see that discontinuing paper travelcards will be a priority until that is sorted.

 

[JonathanH]

Since there is a requirement to provide cross London (Maltese cross) magstripe support, I don't really see that discontinuing paper travelcards will be a priority until that is sorted.

While no announcement has been made, don't you think that this might be a precursor to a similar move to remove Maltese Cross support?

I can't imagine that the current settlement to TfL gives them £2.70 off-peak / £2.80 peak for every crossing of Zone 1 made on such a ticket, not least as I bought such a ticket for £6.95 at the weekend with a Network Railcard. It is noticeable that 'mixed mode' journeys from outside London are priced to have an explicit uplift of that amount (eg Redhill to Luton) where an underground transfer is included, and I think we can expect that to be extended under Project Oval.

 

[crablab]

While no announcement has been made, don't you think that this might be a precursor to a similar move to remove Maltese Cross support?

Potentially. But I'm not sure that's been discussed previously on here, or is what Haywain was alluding to (apologies if that is incorrect).

It would certainly be more politically explosive if that was the plan as it'll impact a great deal more people outside the London commuter belt!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would certainly be more politically explosive if that was the plan as it'll impact a great deal more people outside the London commuter belt!

I don't think it would be. However I believe discussions are ongoing to provide a solution which retains it, i.e. barcode readers on relevant gatelines.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm aware...

I think we're talking at cross purposes.

Let me rephrase: how is the removal of day travelcards a precursor to switching period travelcards to ITSO only? Since all currently available travelcards could be issued entirely on ITSO right now, if desired.

Since there is a requirement to provide cross London (Maltese cross) magstripe support, I don't really see that discontinuing paper travelcards will be a priority until that is sorted.

It isn't but that'll come along soon all TOC's have Smart Tickeing targets and seasons are one of the easier areas to move accross.

 

[Deerfold]

Currently only inboundary

Thanks. I thought it unlikely that all South East (and further) stations could do that, yet.