TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[Benjwri]

There are too many maps floating about. Is the consultation one the latest, do you know?

It doesn't help the consultation included two maps, one without Oxford, and one with. It was very clear in the consultation that an expansion to Oxford would also mean one to places such as Brighton, as they wanted to keep the extent of the zone uniform.

 

[JonathanH]

It doesn't help the consultation included two maps, one without Oxford, and one with. It was very clear in the consultation that an expansion to Oxford would also mean one to places such as Brighton, as they wanted to keep the extent of the zone uniform.

'hwl', as an informed poster on these matters, has confirmed in the Project Oval thread that the original map in the consultation should be disregarded as the end points have changed over time.

The extent of the zone isn't necessary uniform based on those postings.

The boundaries have been revised outwards in few cases since the initial proposal in the public draft

 

[CyrusWuff]

There are too many maps floating about. Is the consultation one the latest, do you know?

The consultation one from 2019 is the most recent one I can find with likely terms on Google.

WhatDoTheyKnow has a request made to TfL on 9th May for a list of in-scope stations, though obviously there's no response as yet.

 

[jon0844]

That would certainly make life easier, but the map in the consultation showed CPAY as far as Reading on the GWML and Princes Risborough (and on to Aylesbury) on Chiltern.

From the wording on the post earlier, it seems there's an aspiration to eventually ensure an entire line is covered so validity doesn't end part way on a route.. so that would mean ultimately wanting to have CPCs valid from Brighton to Cambridge and Horsham to Peterborough for Thameslink, and likewise other suburban routes. Clearly IC services won't apply, although of course you could use a card to a station within the suburban area.

 

[Wallsendmag]

From the wording on the post earlier, it seems there's an aspiration to eventually ensure an entire line is covered so validity doesn't end part way on a route.. so that would mean ultimately wanting to have CPCs valid from Brighton to Cambridge and Horsham to Peterborough for Thameslink, and likewise other suburban routes. Clearly IC services won't apply, although of course you could use a card to a station within the suburban area.

Why wouldn’t IC services be included ? Last I was aware LNER were included in the Oval plans as they called at Stevenage

 

[johncrossley]

Why wouldn’t IC services be included ? Last I was aware LNER were included in the Oval plans as they called at Stevenage

The quoted post clearly meant that contactless validity (probably) wouldn't extend to the ends of long distance routes, for example Edinburgh or Leeds, but suburban stations served by long distance trains, such as Stevenage, would be included.

although of course you could use a card to a station within the suburban area.

 

[MrJeeves]

WhatDoTheyKnow has a request made to TfL on 9th May for a list of in-scope stations, though obviously there's no response as yet.

I made a request to DfT about this, which was rejected as it's classed as formulation of government policy: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/contactless_payments_on_national#incoming-2214690

Judging by that, it seems like they may not have decided completely yet?

 

[davews]

There has been much discussion on journey times here - relevant to spotters but also to anybody trying to navigate the system. I found the basing of journey times on number of zones passed very confusing and suspect I am not alone.
Yesterday's trip to Uxbridge for my London Loop walk. Day return Martins Heron to Richmond plus two tube journeys was in this case much cheaper than using a travelcard - tube was £2 each way.
My outward tube trip took 1 hour 33 minutes, the return one 1 hour 32 minutes, in both cases with a bit of hanging around for trains especially at Hammersmith and waiting at red signals. It seems changing at either Turnham Green or Hammersmith is acceptable taking me into zone 2. It is either a 5 zone trip or a 7 zone trip depending on whether I go via Hammersmith though of course TFL don't know I did that. Max journey time for 5 zones is 1 hour 50 minutes, 7 zones 2 hours 10 minutes. I didn't exceed those and have been charged correctly but it is pretty damned close and that is for a journey that takes that sort of time in normal circumstances.

The nightmare of exceeding journey time on a regular basis must be one of the main reasons for sticking with travel cards!

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The nightmare of exceeding journey time on a regular basis must be one of the main reasons for sticking with travel cards!

Such a nightmare is so much at a forefront of people's minds that travelcards are incredibly rarely used when looking at journey statistics.

 

[island]

The nightmare of exceeding journey time on a regular basis must be one of the main reasons for sticking with travel cards!

Normal passengers making normal journeys on a normal route have no concern about maximum journey items and certainly do not normally choose to pay over the odds for a Travelcard for fear they will be overcharged – an overcharge which is in any event reclaimable by contacting TfL.

 

[Skie]

Removing travel cards will make business travel a pain in the backside. Right now we can just tick a box when booking a ticket that ends at a London terminus and a travel card is included for that journey from the types available. Or you can just buy them separately by using the zones as departure and destination.

There isn’t a good alternative to allow pay as you go for business travellers. You’ll need a shared oyster (nightmare for finance and a pain for the users), give everyone their own contactless card (massively wasteful for infrequent travellers and lots of overhead costs) or have them use their own card and claim it back on expenses (more overhead and can cause issues when staff don’t want to use their own cards). You still need to book the other tickets too, so all of this just adds more cost.

I support some of our teams when they need to navigate the fun of group ticketing and travel planning and I can’t see this being a nice thing to deal with when trying to shift large numbers of people around London

 

[JonathanH]

There isn’t a good alternative to allow pay as you go for business travellers. You’ll need a shared oyster (nightmare for finance and a pain for the users), give everyone their own contactless card (massively wasteful for infrequent travellers and lots of overhead costs) or have them use their own card and claim it back on expenses (more overhead and can cause issues when staff don’t want to use their own cards). You still need to book the other tickets too, so all of this just adds more cost.

Not true. Companies can issue a Corporate Credit Card with Contactless to their staff and require all relevant travel to be made using that card.

Might work out cheaper in many cases, and additionally prevent employees making non work journeys on the company's expense as well.

Surely people have been claiming Oyster / Contactless fares for expenses ever since 2003?

 

[MrJeeves]

Not true. Companies can issue a Corporate Credit Card with Contactless to their staff and require all relevant travel to be made using that card.

This was mentioned:

give everyone their own contactless card (massively wasteful for infrequent travellers and lots of overhead costs)

It's not trivial for a business with many thousands of employees to suddenly issue all travellers with corporate cards.

 

[JonathanH]

It's not trivial for a business with many thousands of employees to suddenly issue all travellers with corporate cards.

I agree.

However, it is a strange expense policy that doesn't allow occasional use of an employee's own Oyster or Contactless card, and a strange individual position to take to not use their own Oyster or Contactless card, given the ability to get an itemised journey history and to redact anything personal from that history.

Indeed, as I pointed out, it works very well, as an audit can be made of the journeys taken, which isn't possible with a travelcard.

 

[MrJeeves]

I agree.

However, it is a strange expense policy that doesn't allow occasional use of an employee's own Oyster or Contactless card, and a strange individual position to take to not use their own Oyster or Contactless card, given the ability to get an itemised journey history and to redact anything personal from that history.

Indeed, as I pointed out, it works very well, as an audit can be made of the journeys taken, which isn't possible with a travelcard.

Its unusual, but there's also times where an employee wouldn't want to use their personal funds for a work trip, which is fair enough.

At the end of the day, this is an issue for businesses affected to work through rather than TfL, though!

 

[tomuk]

This was mentioned:



It's not trivial for a business with many thousands of employees to suddenly issue all travellers with corporate cards.

It may not be trivial but the relatively small number of sales of travelcards as opposed to oyster\contactless use would suggest plenty of businesses have found a manageable way round it.

 

[island]

It may not be trivial but the relatively small number of sales of travelcards as opposed to oyster\contactless use would suggest plenty of businesses have found a manageable way round it.

Indeed. Where I work, contactless is assumed and a print of the journey history is requested for spend over £12 in a day.

 

[Hadders]

Removing travel cards will make business travel a pain in the backside. Right now we can just tick a box when booking a ticket that ends at a London terminus and a travel card is included for that journey from the types available. Or you can just buy them separately by using the zones as departure and destination.

There isn’t a good alternative to allow pay as you go for business travellers. You’ll need a shared oyster (nightmare for finance and a pain for the users), give everyone their own contactless card (massively wasteful for infrequent travellers and lots of overhead costs) or have them use their own card and claim it back on expenses (more overhead and can cause issues when staff don’t want to use their own cards). You still need to book the other tickets too, so all of this just adds more cost.

I support some of our teams when they need to navigate the fun of group ticketing and travel planning and I can’t see this being a nice thing to deal with when trying to shift large numbers of people around London

Just use a contactless card and obtain a recipt through the TfL website. You don't even have to register to get this.

 

[jumble]

A consultation has just launched on the TfL website into a proposal to withdraw One Day Travelcards; this would affect both inboundary and outboundary versions.


More details can be found at the below link: https://haveyoursay.tfl.gov.uk/travelcards

This is being done at the same time that San Francisco have massively dropped their prices for Muni 1 day Travelcards on Muni Mobile since I was last there
( I see that the price has remained 5 USD since 2018 before that was double
Travelcard for Everything except cable cars 5 USD ( approx £4.00 )
Travelcard for Everything 13 USD ( approx. £11.00) ( This was 11 USD in 2008 !)

I was amazed that no one checked my ticket at all in 3 days that I was travelling around except a cursory glance at the QR code on the cable cars
Board on any door

 

[winks]

The idea that TfL cant find efficiencies to cover this ticket cost c60m ? Is stretching the truth. The amount of foreign visitors and people outside London who wish to travel in the future will no doubt be pretty annoyed and may be put off travel into London, just at a time when Mr Khan wants to increase footfall and tax-take etc.

 

[island]

The vast majority of foreigners and people outside London use contactless already.

 

[Sm5]

I agree.

However, it is a strange expense policy that doesn't allow occasional use of an employee's own Oyster or Contactless card, and a strange individual position to take to not use their own Oyster or Contactless card, given the ability to get an itemised journey history and to redact anything personal from that history.

Indeed, as I pointed out, it works very well, as an audit can be made of the journeys taken, which isn't possible with a travelcard.

Mine requires a receipt.

so paper it is.

 

[Deerfold]

Mine requires a receipt.

so paper it is.

I provide expenses for several different clients.

None so far have objected to a printout or pdf from my Oyster/Contactless account.

 

[zero]

The idea that TfL cant find efficiencies to cover this ticket cost c60m ? Is stretching the truth. The amount of foreign visitors and people outside London who wish to travel in the future will no doubt be pretty annoyed and may be put off travel into London, just at a time when Mr Khan wants to increase footfall and tax-take etc.

I highly doubt foreign visitors will choose not to go to London because they can't buy a paper ticket. At most, if it becomes too complicated they may choose to use public transport a bit less on average.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I highly doubt foreign visitors will choose not to go to London because they can't buy a paper ticket. At most, if it becomes too complicated they may choose to use public transport a bit less on average.

Yes, it could cause a bit of loss to Uber which is familiar as it works the same everywhere. Most however would get an Oyster card if their bank card didn't suit.

 

[ExToC]

Apologies if this has been posted somewhere else in the previous 17 pages of this clearly hot topic, but if the rationale is that TFL don't like network card discounts on travelcards, how does that stop people using a network discount to London terminals and then an oyster with the discount code loaded? What do they save by getting rid of travelcards? - which I though have a positive economic impact on London as a whole, not just a revenue impact.

I mean my instincts are I'm not thrilled by this but I want to understand it fully before going on the warpath.

 

[JonathanH]

if the rationale is that TFL don't like network card discounts on travelcards, how does that stop people using a network discount to London terminals and then an oyster with the discount code loaded?

It goes beyond tickets discounted with Railcards. TfL don't like Travelcards full stop.

As for the specific case of the Network Railcard, discounts aren't available on Oyster for that.

 

[Haywain]

but if the rationale is that TFL don't like network card discounts on travelcards,

I don't think anyone has suggested that being the rationale behind abolishing day Travelcards.

how does that stop people using a network discount to London terminals and then an oyster with the discount code loaded? What do they save by getting rid of travelcards?

A Network Railcard discount cannot be applied to an Oyster card.

 

[JonathanH]

What do they save by getting rid of travelcards? - which I though have a positive economic impact on London as a whole, not just a revenue impact.

They get a more accurate share of revenue, the removal of discounts for various groups, potentially the ability to take more steps to the removal of acceptance of paper tickets and better planning information, among other things.

There is basically no down side for TfL other than a handful of people deciding they might visit London less in protest.

 

[Hadders]

Mine requires a receipt.

so paper it is.

A receipt can be downloaded from the TfL website. Gives much more detail than a paper ticket, so better from an expenses point of view as it details the exact journey taken and at what time.