TfL proposes to withdraw Day Travelcards

[MikeWM]

No you just tap out again and in most cases you will be charged correctly.

'Most' - as opposed to 'always' when using a paper travelcard...

Ok, so this is merely the start of what I suspect is a long list of 'things I don't want to have to know', but looking that up on TfL's pages says

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay...-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out

If you touch contactless (card or device) or an Oyster card on a yellow card reader when you enter a station, and then touch out to exit it within a short period of time, you'll be charged a same station exit:

• Between 0 - 2 minutes: a maximum fare. If you re-enter the same or a different station within 45 minutes, you'll be refunded. This doesn't apply if you take a bus or tram before re-entering a station
• Between 2 - 30 minutes: minimum pay as you go fare from that station
• More than 30 minutes: we'll assume two separate journeys have been made and both will be incomplete. You'll be charged two maximum fares

That's already significantly more complex than using a Travelcard. So if I go onto the platform and see that the next train is 20 minutes away, I have to remember to wait two minutes before trying to leave again, else get a massive penalty? (Or possibly not, depending on what I do in the following 45 minutes). And I don't see any 'no charge' option, which is of course the case with a Travelcard.

 

[johncrossley]

It is probably unnecessary to actually call TfL to fix incomplete journeys in most cases as it can be done through online. I recently accidentally tapped in and out using different Google Pay cards. I thought that would be complex enough to need to phone TfL but the website matched them and gave me a refund on both cards without having to phone. Paying up front in the traditional way means you have committed to the original planned journey at the start whereas you can change or curtail the route while travelling when using contactless, giving you maximum flexibility. But contactless means you may have to administration to do at a later date. That's not just TfL, that's how contactless works in other cities and in other countries. There are pros and cons to both methods of payment.

 

[peterson]

Reading Borough Council objection in full:

Council Objects to Proposed Removal of One Day Travelcard to London | Reading Borough Council News

Council has objected to TfL proposals to withdraw the current one-day travelcard for Reading residents travelling into London Withdrawal of the ticket would result in a 31% increase for an off-peak return from Reading to Paddington with zones 1-6 Tube travel

media.reading.gov.uk

 

[Wolfie]

Reading Borough Council objection in full:

Council Objects to Proposed Removal of One Day Travelcard to London | Reading Borough Council News

Council has objected to TfL proposals to withdraw the current one-day travelcard for Reading residents travelling into London Withdrawal of the ticket would result in a 31% increase for an off-peak return from Reading to Paddington with zones 1-6 Tube travel

media.reading.gov.uk

I agree with much of that. However, if the alternative is higher fares for Londoners whose taxes are already subsidising the rest of the country then l absolutely support TfL's proposals.

 

[JonathanH]

Reading Borough Council objection in full:

Unfortunately, in this case, some of their facts are wrong because, forgetting about railcards for a moment, passengers from Reading can already use a Contactless card to get capped daily travel at the same price as the off-peak one day travelcard. Therefore, not a 31% increase from the decision, but actually no change.

Clearly there are more issues where children or railcard holders are involved.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Reading Borough Council objection in full:

Council Objects to Proposed Removal of One Day Travelcard to London | Reading Borough Council News

Council has objected to TfL proposals to withdraw the current one-day travelcard for Reading residents travelling into London Withdrawal of the ticket would result in a 31% increase for an off-peak return from Reading to Paddington with zones 1-6 Tube travel

media.reading.gov.uk

The stated increase in price would only apply to someone who paid for the Reading-to-London and within-London journeys separately. If they used contactless throughout, there would be no increase.
(JonathanH has just beaten me to it.)
The council speak of a 'need for a separate (or several separate) ticket arrangements' so they clearly haven't thought of this.

The change does disadvantage some people in the Reading Borough Council area, which includes Tilehurst and Reading West stations, and will soon include at least part of Reading Green Park station, all of which are outside the contactless area.

 

[Sm5]

My local MP responded by saying he uses travelcards with his family too for several years, and has written to tfl for an explanation.

 

[SussexSeagull]

I agree with much of that. However, if the alternative is higher fares for Londoners whose taxes are already subsidising the rest of the country then l absolutely support TfL's proposals.

Incorrect. The South East of England pays for itself.

If London wants to go to war with the rest of the country don't be surprised when the rest of the country asks for national institutions to be moved out of London.

 

[peterson]

As a typical off-peak travelcard user from Reading, I haven't used contactless tickets. Perhaps someone could explain...

What would happen if I buy a GWR off-peak return to Paddington but then ride the Elizabeth Line back from Paddington during peak hours? (Common behaviour for families in school hols) Currently this is permitted using the off-peak travelcard but what would happen once integrated ticketing is withdrawn? I'd buy national rail tickets from GWR then Tfl charge me again via contactless, at peak rate to boot? Surely not...

 

[Wolfie]

Incorrect. The South East of England pays for itself.

If London wants to go to war with the rest of the country don't be surprised when the rest of the country asks for national institutions to be moved out of London.

I agree re the South East. The rest of the country seems to moan about money being spent in London while having a perennial begging bowl out.

 

[JonathanH]

What would happen if I buy a GWR off-peak return to Paddington but then ride the Elizabeth Line back from Paddington during peak hours? (Common behaviour for families in school hols) Currently this is permitted using the off-peak travelcard but what would happen once integrated ticketing is withdrawn? I'd buy national rail tickets from GWR then Tfl charge me again via contactless, at peak rate to boot? Surely not...

Indeed not.

Integrated ticketing is not being withdrawn. The off-peak day return would be valid on the Elizabeth Line as it is at present.

On Contactless, the off-peak capping even allows return on a GWR service from Paddington in the evening peak as far as I am aware (which the off-peak day travelcard doesn't), even though the peak single on Contactless isn't far off that cap.

I'd imagine that a fair number of people are already finding Contactless more convenient when travelling from Reading to London, although I recognise the issues for families and railcard holders.

(A freedom of information request for the usage of Contactless from Reading and the number of people reaching the cap would be very interesting, in the context of a debate about passengers switching away from travelcards.)

 

[winks]

See how confusing this is for the average traveller…? At least a paper ticket (day Travelcard) provides complete peace of mind with regards to travelling on any service.

 

[JonathanH]

See how confusing this is for the average traveller…? At least a paper ticket (day Travelcard) provides complete peace of mind with regards to travelling on any service.

It doesn't provide that peace of mind. Many routes have restrictions on peak evening travel out of London on off-peak day travelcards, when crossing the Zone 6 boundary, most notably to Reading where GWR services are barred for over 3 hours.

 

[winks]

I was more specially referring to Off Pk Day Travelcard. For me, having one ticket is peace of mind. I’ve never been questioned over where or what I was doing with this ticket. The only issue I find is that the Gateline staff hardly bother to empty the ticket barriers now so you have to find a gate with space left in the ticket reader - which is annoying !

 

[davews]

My MP still hasn't responded to my email. My local councillor did, as I posted some time back, and was going to get his man in the council to sort out an opposition response. But he (and nearly all the other conservative councillors) lost his seat last week so not sure what what will happen now.

Reading may be a bit different but out here in Bracknell we don't have the option of contactless. Some of my leisure (walking) trips will be quite a lot more expensive without a travelcard. But others can be done cheaper with return fares and contactless. It just needs a bit of pre-preparatory work sorting out routes etc rather than taking the easy option of buying a travelcard.

 

[peterson]

I'd imagine that a fair number of people are already finding Contactless more convenient when travelling from Reading to London, although I recognise the issues for families and railcard holders.

If that's the case, then might a suitable compromise be to retain day travelcards for families and railcard holders only?

 

[JonathanH]

If that's the case, then might a suitable compromise be to retain day travelcards for families and railcard holders only?

No, as far as TfL are concerned, they already cater for them (or at least the ones that matter to them) via Oyster. Indeed, they provide free travel to accompanied children under age 11.

Project Oval will need to find a solution for children, but that wouldn't be retention of the day travelcard.

 

[Haywain]

If that's the case, then might a suitable compromise be to retain day travelcards for families and railcard holders only?

That might help Reading but it's a small percentage of Travelcard users. Very large numbers elsewhere cannot benefit from using contactless.

 

[JonathanH]

Very large numbers elsewhere cannot benefit from using contactless.

Yet.

 

[transplanted]

I thought it was very common for people to use network Railcard with these travelcards outside london?

 

[JonathanH]

I thought it was very common for people to use network Railcard with these travelcards outside london?

It is, but that isn't TfL's problem, as disappointing as their position is.

TfL are fairly clear of the view that offering discounts on Travelcards is costing them money relative to the alternatives.

 

[Haywain]

Yet.

And will remain so even after Project Oval has been implemented.

 

[LexyBoy]

Clearly there are more issues where children or railcard holders are involved.

Rather reminiscent of how TfL de facto prevented many Railcards from being used on London trains with the introduction of Oyster.

Running the numbers though, I was surprised that the difference in fare using paper RDG-PAD return with Railcard plus the Z1-2 cap is less than the equivalent without Railcard (15.80+8.10=23.90, 22.6% more) - although as you say without a Railcard the contactless fare is no more than the current ODT.

It doesn't provide that peace of mind. Many routes have restrictions on peak evening travel out of London on off-peak day travelcards, when crossing the Zone 6 boundary, most notably to Reading where GWR services are barred for over 3 hours.

The restrictions are the same, but there's some peace of mind in that a paper travelcard will usually be refused at the barriers when not valid, whereas with contactless one would likely not realise until you see the charge made.

 

[MikeWM]

I was more specially referring to Off Pk Day Travelcard. For me, having one ticket is peace of mind. I’ve never been questioned over where or what I was doing with this ticket.

I had an problem once with the gateline staff (and ticket office staff) at Waterloo (details here). But I was sure I was in the right (even though it didn't help me a lot in the end). I don't think I would be quite so sure given the insanely complex rules around oyster/contactless.

 

[eli 801/2]

I had an problem once with the gateline staff

I have many freinds who have recently had the same problem at kings cross and other major stations. I really think the rules around all of this need clearing up and all staff need to be told the same thing as curently it is verry much a grey area.

 

[Benjwri]

Yet

As far as I’m aware there are no plans to expand contactless outside Reading. Every summer I make at least 10 journeys from between Reading and Didcot to London, using a Travelcard, and this will significantly increase fares for me. Every now and then I also use a split Travelcard from Bath. Neither of these journeys will let me use contactless without physically leaving the station at Reading, and while I can old hope contactless will be expanded last Reading, there’s no hope of it ever reaching Bath.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm sure the current plan is to extend contactless to Oxford from both Paddington and Marylebone.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm sure the current plan is to extend contactless to Oxford from both Paddington and Marylebone.

That would certainly make life easier, but the map in the consultation showed CPAY as far as Reading on the GWML and Princes Risborough (and on to Aylesbury) on Chiltern.

 

[Benjwri]

I'm sure the current plan is to extend contactless to Oxford from both Paddington and Marylebone.

I cannot overstate how excited I would be for that to be true, but as far as I can find there is no evidence of this. All the project oval maps stop at Reading, and I haven't seen any other rumours of it reaching even Didcot, let alone Oxford. (Baring the original consultation that included an option for extension to Oxford)

 

[MikeWh]

That would certainly make life easier, but the map in the consultation showed CPAY as far as Reading on the GWML and Princes Risborough (and on to Aylesbury) on Chiltern.

There are too many maps floating about. Is the consultation one the latest, do you know?