Peak/off peak confusion

[diy_dude]

Hi. This is a current dispute on the train rather than a prosecution (hopefully)
I’m on the 17:45 from Glasgow to Edinburgh. I bought my ticket from lner.co.uk and it happily sold me an off peak ticket for this train with connection to the LNER Service from Edinburgh at 18:35. When I boarded the train, the announcement said the train was peak, so I immediately went to find the guard(?) to confirm. He was clear it was a peak train and my ticket is not valid, but the doors are now closed. What I don’t understand is how I should have known this - I am not a regular user on this route.
The printed ticket has an 8f restriction code and this mentions nothing about an afternoon peak: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket-types/validity/8f/
If I look at the same journey for tomorrow from scotrail.co.uk, the website would happily sell me an off peak ticket for the 17:45 train.
What have I missed?

My travel details are:
Leuchars to Glasgow changing at Haymarket.
9:22 from Leuchars this morning, 17:45 back just now.

 

[AlterEgo]

There's no such thing as a "peak train", only a journey can be peak or off peak. As your ticket has restriction 8F you were perfectly entitled to take the train - it was sold to you alongside the itinerary and there was no need to ask the ticket examiner/guard at all.

You should complain about this, and any delay you have suffered, and claim delay repay.

 

[diy_dude]

After a good Google, I found this: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/off-peak-tickets
There are some evening peak time restrictions on certain rail routes. Off-Peak tickets can’t be used to travel to certain destinations on services from Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley, or Haymarket that leave after 16:42 and before 18:11.
This seems to contradict the 8f restriction.
Anyway, nearly at Haymarket and the guard still isn’t quite sure what to so.

 

[jfollows]

The only confusion is by the guard(?) of the train who said it was a "peak train". There is no such thing, as AlterEgo has already posted.
You have not missed anything, the only thing missing is the adequate training for some of the people who work with tickets on the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

After a good Google, I found this: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/off-peak-tickets
There are some evening peak time restrictions on certain rail routes. Off-Peak tickets can’t be used to travel to certain destinations on services from Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley, or Haymarket that leave after 16:42 and before 18:11.
This seems to contradict the 8f restriction.
Anyway, nearly at Haymarket and the guard still isn’t quite sure what to so.

It's wrong.
Your ticket restriction, which you have looked up, determines which trains you can and can not use. A correct version of this has to say "some off-peak tickets can't be used ...." because what someone decided to write on a Web site can't over-ride and contradict the ticket restrictions.

EDIT If you end up feeling compelled to part with money, make sure you have all the details including the identification of the person demanding money, and make a claim for its reimbursement subsequently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

This ticket presumably: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LEU&dest=0433&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=5&tkt=SVR with restriction code 8F as you say.

Outward Travel & Return Travel​
Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:16, except the 07:01 and 09:01 Stranraer to Ayr, and the 0855 Inverness - Aberdeen service.

No other restrictions.

 

[diy_dude]

Ok. Thanks. I’m off the train without being charged anything extra. Have been told not to do it again. He held the ticket in front of his camera which I presume links back to my details as I bought it online.

 

[jfollows]

Ok. Thanks. I’m off the train without being charged anything extra. Have been told not to do it again. He held the ticket in front of his camera which I presume links back to my details as I bought it online.

Good.
However they always do this - they make up the rules and make as if they're doing you a favour by "letting you off this time". If you feel like complaining I'm not sure it would do any good but if you plan on making this trip again you might like to include a request for confirmation in writing that you are correct just in case you come across the same person again.
And, as AlterEgo also said, if you have been delayed then you should claim delay repay based on your actual arrival time back at Leuchars versus your booked arrival time on your itinerary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

I have also noticed that an off-peak return from Edinburgh to Glasgow also has the same 8F restriction code; it's the off-peak day return ticket that has the more restrictive H1 restriction code:

Outward Travel & Return Travel​

Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 09:15. Passengers are not permitted to join the following at Glasgow Queen Street or Central, Edinburgh or Haymarket: any service departing after 16:42 and before 18:11, except the 17:57 Edinburgh to Glasgow via Shotts; the 18:15 Edinburgh (18:21 Haymarket) to Glasgow Queen Street service; the 18:15 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh service; the 18:30 Edinburgh (18:34 Haymarket) to Aberdeen service.

and this is presumably where the words for the Scotrail Web site which you referred to originate. But anyone checking tickets on this route really ought to know the difference.

 

[diy_dude]

The only confusion is by the guard(?) of the train who said it was a "peak train". There is no such thing, as AlterEgo has already posted.
You have not missed anything, the only thing missing is the adequate training for some of the people who work with tickets on the railway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==


It's wrong.
Your ticket restriction, which you have looked up, determines which trains you can and can not use. A correct version of this has to say "some off-peak tickets can't be used ...." because what someone decided to write on a Web site can't over-ride and contradict the ticket restrictions.

EDIT If you end up feeling compelled to part with money, make sure you have all the details including the identification of the person demanding money, and make a claim for its reimbursement subsequently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2023 ==

This ticket presumably: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=LEU&dest=0433&expert=on&flow=0&multi=0&fare=5&tkt=SVR with restriction code 8F as you say.

No other restrictions.

Yup, that’s the one. I’ve obscured the numbers and Aztec code.

 

[diy_dude]

Good.
However they always do this - they make up the rules and make as if they're doing you a favour by "letting you off this time". If you feel like complaining I'm not sure it would do any good but if you plan on making this trip again you might like to include a request for confirmation in writing that you are correct just in case you come across the same person again.
And, as AlterEgo also said, if you have been delayed then you should claim delay repay based on your actual arrival time back at Leuchars versus your booked arrival time on your itinerary.

I had less that 10 minutes to change trains at Haymarket so didn’t approach anyone. I’ll certainly speak to the person at the ticket office in Leuchars to confirm when I get back there.

 

[diy_dude]

Good.
However they always do this - they make up the rules and make as if they're doing you a favour by "letting you off this time". If you feel like complaining I'm not sure it would do any good but if you plan on making this trip again you might like to include a request for confirmation in writing that you are correct just in case you come across the same person again.
And, as AlterEgo also said, if you have been delayed then you should claim delay repay based on your actual arrival time back at Leuchars versus your booked arrival time on your itinerary.

Thanks for your help. I posted an image of the ticket but that’s awaiting moderation.
I wasn’t delayed so can’t claim back- it would go to my work anyway!
The person challenging me couldnt work out exactly how much extra to charge me, so eventually didn’t charge me at all. He did show me his book which listed the service as peak and a code, possibly 6N (I think).
All very stressful.

 

[AlterEgo]

After a good Google, I found this: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/tickets/off-peak-tickets
There are some evening peak time restrictions on certain rail routes. Off-Peak tickets can’t be used to travel to certain destinations on services from Glasgow Central, Glasgow Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley, or Haymarket that leave after 16:42 and before 18:11.
This seems to contradict the 8f restriction.

Nothing can contradict the 8F restriction. The restrictions apply to the ticket, not the train, the guard is unequivocally wrong and the website is unclear.

 

[diy_dude]

Nothing can contradict the 8F restriction. The restrictions apply to the ticket, not the train, the guard is unequivocally wrong and the website is unclear.

Scotrail support on WhatsApp is no better.

 

[jfollows]

Scotrail support on WhatsApp is no better.

Sorry to hear that, but I'm not surprised.
If they teach staff one thing, it should be "there is no such thing as a peak train" because there isn't, as we've already said, and understanding why this is true would then lead to a better understanding of the facts.

This is a problem which we've seen repeatedly in other places - London Paddington is renowned for it, for example, where there are ticket restrictions which cover many tickets but, again, not all of them but railway staff decide that the restrictions apply to all "off-peak" tickets. Multiple complaints including write-ups in articles in railway magazines appear to make no difference. It's the railways which invented this convoluted system, so it's up to the railways to teach its staff properly how to interpret and apply them, but they don't.

 

[swt_passenger]

Scotrail support on WhatsApp is no better.

TOC Twitter or WhatsApp teams rarely understand fare restrictions either. If they’re not properly training some guards and some platform staff, it’s rather unlikely their WhatsApp people are trained either.

None of them will be likely to admit they’re wrong, and they won’t usually respond well to public criticism. They’re more likely to dig in and stonewall any questions.

 

[diy_dude]

Sorry to hear that, but I'm not surprised.
If they teach staff one thing, it should be "there is no such thing as a peak train" because there isn't, as we've already said, and understanding why this is true would then lead to a better understanding of the facts.

This is a problem which we've seen repeatedly in other places - London Paddington is renowned for it, for example, where there are ticket restrictions which cover many tickets but, again, not all of them but railway staff decide that the restrictions apply to all "off-peak" tickets. Multiple complaints including write-ups in articles in railway magazines appear to make no difference. It's the railways which invented this convoluted system, so it's up to the railways to teach its staff properly how to interpret and apply them, but they don't.

I really appreciate your help. You gave me confidence to challenge him and avoid paying more unnecessarily.
I’ve only made this journey twice in the last year and travelled with advance tickets last time.

 

[AlterEgo]

Scotrail support on WhatsApp is no better.

What a tremendous surprise that the staff are very wrong and you can get better advice on a forum. Not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a tremendous surprise that the staff are very wrong and you can get better advice on a forum. Not.

It's the arrogance that's an issue. If you don't know or it's suggested you may be wrong, stick it in a journey planner and you'll see it's valid.

This sort of arrogance is endemic on the railway, I've experienced it multiple times.

 

[mangyiscute]

This is a problem which we've seen repeatedly in other places - London Paddington is renowned for it, for example, where there are ticket restrictions which cover many tickets but, again, not all of them but railway staff decide that the restrictions apply to all "off-peak" tickets. Multiple complaints including write-ups in articles in railway magazines appear to make no difference. It's the railways which invented this convoluted system, so it's up to the railways to teach its staff properly how to interpret and apply them, but they don't.

I remember when I took like a 7am train from Reading to London with an off peak ticket, but as it was a friday and i was then going up to peterborough it was perfectly valid as they have no friday restrictions. Thankfully they were fine with it once they had checked online (presumably just searched for the journey on journey planner)

 

[Tetchytyke]

This sort of arrogance is endemic on the railway, I've experienced it multiple times.

Won’t change unless and until there is a regulator and ombudsman with teeth, rather than the chocolate teapots we have now.

Given the WhatsApp response, I would push this further. The WhatsApp Pixie has the time and tools to check rather than making stuff up. Don’t expect to get much joy though.

 

[jfollows]

I remember when I took like a 7am train from Reading to London with an off peak ticket, but as it was a friday and i was then going up to peterborough it was perfectly valid as they have no friday restrictions. Thankfully they were fine with it once they had checked online (presumably just searched for the journey on journey planner)

That's good to hear because - as Bletchleyite says - that's all they need to do. Today's technology makes it easy to do, and the arrogant "I'm right and you're wrong because I say so" has no more place in the railways than it does anywhere else. I've had it too - "I've been doing this job for 24 years so I know what I'm talking about" to which I didn't respond "I've been travelling by train for 30 years so I know what I'm talking about", it wasn't worth it on that occasion. (And it was a while back - it'd be >50 years of train travel today!)

 

[swt_passenger]

That's good to hear because - as Bletchleyite says - that's all they need to do. Today's technology makes it easy to do, and the arrogant "I'm right and you're wrong because I say so" has no more place in the railways than it does anywhere else. I've had it too - "I've been doing this job for 24 years so I know what I'm talking about" to which I didn't response "I've been travelling by train for 30 years so I know what I'm talking about", it wasn't worth it on that occasion.

It’s fundamentally the same attitude as in that recent thread where Avanti are effectively trying to say the NR conditions of travel are wrong.

 

[Segedunum]

Now this is quite a coincidence, but I was also on the 1745 service today. The guard was indeed very very enthusiastic in emphasising that this was the "PEAK" service to Edinburgh over and over and over.

I also held a ticket with an 8F restriction - an Off-Peak Return from Edinburgh to Glasgow QS.

I was actually prepared for an argument but...not a peep. I was pleased that the guard could distinguish between Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day tickets. Seems I was too kind.

 

[diy_dude]

Now this is quite a coincidence, but I was also on the 1745 service today. The guard was indeed very very enthusiastic in emphasising that this was the "PEAK" service to Edinburgh over and over and over.

I also held a ticket with an 8F restriction - an Off-Peak Return from Edinburgh to Glasgow QS.

I was actually prepared for an argument but...not a peep. I was pleased that the guard could distinguish between Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day tickets. Seems I was too kind.

That really is a coincidence.
It was the guards repeated use of the word peak in his pre-departure announcements that concerned me in the first place. Maybe I should just have kept quiet, flashed the ticket and hoped for the best.
He was with me for about 10-15 minutes both before and after Falkirk. Maybe he got to you later and didn’t want another confrontation?!? I think I was in the 2nd coach of 8.

 

[reb0118]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

 

[Segedunum]

That really is a coincidence.
It was the guards repeated use of the word peak in his pre-departure announcements that concerned me in the first place. Maybe I should just have kept quiet, flashed the ticket and hoped for the best.
He was with me for about 10-15 minutes both before and after Falkirk. Maybe he got to you later and didn’t want another confrontation?!? I think I was in the 2nd coach of 8.

I was in coach 1 and was checked a couple of minutes out of Croy.

As we've established though, he was wrong. And an utterly abysmal response from WhatsApp.

Hardly surprising though, when ScotRail love plastering "PEAK TIME SERVICE" all over their services in the Central Belt.

 

[jfollows]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

That's very positive - thank you!

 

[swt_passenger]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

Great to hear thanks.

 

[Watershed]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

It's particularly frustrating given how there's only really four ticket restrictions that ScotRail staff will commonly come across:

• 8F for all Off-Peak Returns - these have no evening peak restrictions
• H9 for Off-Peak Day Returns for journeys entirely within the former Strathclyde PTE area - these have no evening peak restrictions
• H1 for Off-Peak Day Returns for journeys that go beyond the former Strathclyde PTE area - these have evening peak restrictions from Glasgow, Edinburgh and Haymarket
• H4 for all Super Off-Peak Day Returns - these have evening peak restrictions from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Haymarket and Aberdeen

Only tickets for journeys beyond Scotland (or to/from Lockerbie/Dunbar/Reston), or along the West Highland Line, are any different to this.

 

[diy_dude]

I work this route. I am constantly reminding my colleagues that there is no such thing as a peak or off peak train. Rather it's the ticket that the passenger holds that determines validity.

Although it has been many years since this happened I fear the change (simplification? ) from savers and cheap days to off peak & off peak day perpetuates this confusion.

I'll pop this thread on our internal page to reinforce the reminding.

Thanks, that’s appreciated.
Back home now and reflecting on it, there were a couple of comments which concern me.
My ticket shows a link to the restrictions: nre.co.uk/8F. I showed him the webpage and he told me it wasn’t relevant and I should check ‘one of ours’.

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, that’s appreciated.
Back home now and reflecting on it, there were a couple of comments which concern me.
My ticket shows a link to the restrictions: nre.co.uk/8F. I showed him the webpage and he told me it wasn’t relevant and I should check ‘one of ours’.

From your perspective, why on earth would the site have offered you that ticket if it wasn't valid? (It would be contractually valid either way, but I'm talking purely as a matter of common sense)

And why would that link be printed on the ticket if it weren't relevant? Why should some wooly-worded piece on the ScotRail website take precedence over something that specifically lists trains and times when the ticket is and isn't valid?

Unfortunately, some people are so stubborn that they could never accept they're wrong. It would make them feel like they've lost face, and they can't stand the prospect of that - so they make up absolute nonsense like that. It's a very poor showing.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Luckily ScotRail are planning to abolish peak fares on an experimental basis.