TPE franchise to move to OLR

[LYuen]

This isn’t correct. Southeastern and Northern both do Delay Repay 15.

My bad. I assumed they are in-line with LNER.

 

[Watershed]

My bad. I assumed they are in-line with LNER.

The OLRs simply haven't changed the Delay Repay thresholds they inherited from their predecessors. The DfT has made noises about saving a few pennies by scrapping Delay Repay 15 and moving the threshold back to 30 minutes, so I wouldn't expect any more TOCs to move to DR15.

 

[Krokodil]

how do you boot out underperforming public sector TOCs (eg like TfW)?

The same way that underperforming hospitals or schools are dealt with.

Section 25 - in England and Wales franchisees can't be public sector organisations.

And the government can do whatever it likes unless and until it gets challenged in the courts. Are you going to fund and organise a judicial review?

The OLRs simply haven't changed the Delay Repay thresholds they inherited from their predecessors. The DfT has made noises about saving a few pennies by scrapping Delay Repay 15 and moving the threshold back to 30 minutes, so I wouldn't expect any more TOCs to move to DR15.

A large proportion of TPE services are either cancelled outright, or delayed by at least 30 minutes so the proportion that falls between 15 and 29 will be very small indeed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The same way that underperforming hospitals or schools are dealt with.

You mean put in "special measures"?
That's working really well at Betsi Cadwaladr in the NHS...
To be fair, TfW are not yet in the same league as TPE (and Avanti has been), but they have dug a deep hole for themselves to get out of.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it? I suggest passengers on the Chiltern line would have a different view, with large-scale improvements to services and infrastructure since privatisation. They were even returning payments to the Government rather than taking subsidy in the latter years of the franchise.

Though, of course, Chiltern had the advantage of being granted a twenty year franchise (in exchange for investment) which rather gave them a different mindset to the usual seven year affairs that became common from the mid-00s onwards. Perhaps if more franchises had been awarded for that length of time things would have panned out differently.

 

[Krokodil]

You mean put in "special measures"?
That's working really well at Betsi Cadwaladr in the NHS...

I didn't offer an opinion on whether the powers are effectively used. The ultimate control is with the elected government (devolved or Westminster).

Though, of course, Chiltern had the advantage of being granted a twenty year franchise (in exchange for investment) which rather gave them a different mindset to the usual seven year affairs that became common from the mid-00s onwards. Perhaps if more franchises had been awarded for that length of time things would have panned out differently.

Yes, long-term franchises have undoubtedly been successful. So naturally the DfT has decided that the NRCs will be issued for far shorter periods of time.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is it? I suggest passengers on the Chiltern line would have a different view, with large-scale improvements to services and infrastructure since privatisation.

I don’t wish to dismiss the work Laing did as M40 Trains, they really did push the route on, but many of the improvements were already starting to develop under NSE. The Networkers were the game-changer on that route.

And I’d certainly argue that the current incumbent at Chiltern is the exact opposite of efficient.

One’s attitudes to Chiltern also depends where you are on their route. The Aylesbury route is still running NSE-era trains at NSE-era frequencies, but then there’s no competition on that route. Not quite so much to get excited about. With friends in Aylesbury my experience of Chiltern is the same trains doing the same thing they were doing 30 years ago, but admittedly the “sexier” routes to Birmingham and Oxford have had a marked improvement compared to the late 80s.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I, like a few others here, don't see how this'll solve anything. Whilst First deserve to lose the franchise/contract, as Northern shows, nothing will change.

 

[nr758123]

A large proportion of TPE services are either cancelled outright, or delayed by at least 30 minutes so the proportion that falls between 15 and 29 will be very small indeed.

I've been finding that of my many delay repay claims to TPE, the majority are between 15 & 29. That's because the service I want gets cancelled, and the next one is 30' later but arrives at my destination 29' later.

 

[Tetchytyke]

how do you boot out underperforming public sector TOCs (eg like TfW)

TfW are actually doing a decent enough job in fixing the mess left by KeolisAmey, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

as Northern shows, nothing will change.

Northern is by no means perfect, but it’s much better than it was in the dreg ends of Arriva. And it’s a million times better than it was under Serco.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

You mean put in "special measures"?
That's working really well at Betsi Cadwaladr in the NHS...
To be fair, TfW are not yet in the same league as TPE (and Avanti has been), but they have dug a deep hole for themselves to get out of.

Is Avanti really in a hole, yes they had a blip but seem to have straightened themselves out. No different to the bad early days of SWT when they had mass cancellations due to a lack of understanding of how many drivers they would need. SWT ended up then becoming a very well thought of franchise.

 

[12LDA28C]

I don’t wish to dismiss the work Laing did as M40 Trains, they really did push the route on, but many of the improvements were already starting to develop under NSE. The Networkers were the game-changer on that route.

Indeed and with the associated resignalling however still no service north of Banbury and single line from Princes Risborough to Aynho Junction, until privatisation. Remember that under Adrian Shooter's leadership Chiltern ordered the first new vehicles since privatisation (the 168/0s) and along with the various Evergreen programs, new station openings, line speed improvements, car park expansions and so on Chiltern was a shining example of what could be done with a franchise.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

One’s attitudes to Chiltern also depends where you are on their route. The Aylesbury route is still running NSE-era trains at NSE-era frequencies, but then there’s no competition on that route. Not quite so much to get excited about. With friends in Aylesbury my experience of Chiltern is the same trains doing the same thing they were doing 30 years ago, but admittedly the “sexier” routes to Birmingham and Oxford have had a marked improvement compared to the late 80s.

I understand your point about the Aylesbury route but there's not a lot that can be done when running over ancient LU infrastructure with their 60mph line speed between Amersham and Harrow in terms of journey time improvements. As regards 30-year-old traction, there isn't much point putting units with a higher speed capability on that route given the infrastructure limitations and as far as the Class 165's replacement goes, we all know who controls the purse strings for that project, if it ever happens.

 

[tomuk]

TfW are actually doing a decent enough job in fixing the mess left by KeolisAmey, though.

Keolis Amey are still employed by Tfw to do the construction works on the Valleys 'Metro Conversion (Amey) and as consultants providing resource and advice to run the overall service (Keolis).
And they definitely aren't doing a good job ask ORR about the 175 fires\lack of maintenance. We will not mention the 230s or 67s\Mk4s which after lots of delays can't stay in service without repeated failures.

 

[Watershed]

The Networkers were the game-changer on that route.

Not really. It was still a 75mph, largely single track railway. Whilst the Turbos were undoubtedly a step-change from the preceding first-generation DMUs, the real transformation came when Chiltern masterminded the plans to turn it into a 100mph double track express route. Of course it's now been relegated back to a largely 75mph stopping route with post-Covid timetable cuts.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is Avanti really in a hole, yes they had a blip but seem to have straightened themselves out. No different to the bad early days of SWT when they had mass cancellations due to a lack of understanding of how many drivers they would need. SWT ended up then becoming a very well thought of franchise.

No I meant TfW is in the deep hole, not Avanti (who seem to be climbing out of their abyss).
TPE struggled with its rolling stock replacement plans, and TfW is now doing the same only later in the cycle.
For me the lines of un-useable 175s, after 20+ years of steady service with Alstom maintenance, are as shocking as TPE's new Nova 3s stuck in sidings for years.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Keolis Amey are still employed by Tfw to do the construction works on the Valleys 'Metro Conversion

Yes, and they’re good at construction, just not running trains.

For me the lines of un-useable 175s, after 20+ years of steady service with Alstom maintenance

I’d hardly say the 175s, and their sister 180s, have provided “steady service”. They’ve always been a bag of spanners. 175s were self-immolating back in FNW days.

It should also be noted that TfW Rail don’t maintain the 175s- CAF do.

But yes, TfW Rail are terrible and Arriva before them were amazing(!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

And they definitely aren't doing a good job ask ORR about the 175 fires\lack of maintenance. We will not mention the 230s or 67s\Mk4s

The 230s are Vivarail. Vivarail went bust.

The 175s were self-immolating back in FNW days. They’ve always been terrible trains, at least in terms of reliability. The 175s are also maintained by CAF, not TfW Rail.

 

[Djgr]

Though, of course, Chiltern had the advantage of being granted a twenty year franchise (in exchange for investment) which rather gave them a different mindset to the usual seven year affairs that became common from the mid-00s onwards. Perhaps if more franchises had been awarded for that length of time things would have panned out differently.

I think that when railway historians look back to this time of privatisation anarchic madness, Chiltern will be seen as an outlier.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Northern is by no means perfect, but it’s much better than it was in the dreg ends of Arriva. And it’s a million times better than it was under Serco.

I don't believe it to be better under OLR than Arriva. Serco Abellio doesn't come into it as they haven't had the franchise for the past 7 years. You can say that the stillborn 172 order could've prevented parts of May 2018, but that was cancelled by (a labour controlled - the grass isn't always greener on the other side) central government, not Northern Rail.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I don't believe it to be better under OLR than Arriva. Serco Abellio doesn't come into it as they haven't had the franchise for the past 7 years. You can say that the stillborn 172 order could've prevented parts of May 2018, but that was cancelled by (a labour controlled - the grass isn't always greener on the other side) central government, not Northern Rail.

Totally agree. The Manchester area may have improved but South Yorkshire and Humberside are as bad as ever.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Totally agree. The Manchester area may have improved but South Yorkshire and Humberside are as bad as ever.

I don't even think things west side have improved beyond what happened/was going to happen under Arriva anyways. OLR is not the magic silver bullet some people think it is.

 

[Krokodil]

230s or 67s\Mk4s which after lots of delays can't stay in service without repeated failures.

You can't put those two on the same page. 67/Mk4 sets seem to be behaving reasonably well these days.

 

[tomuk]

Yes, and they’re good at construction, just not running trains.

Amey build things Keolis (international arm of SNCF) who as I said are still retained by TfW provide expertise in running the service.

I’d hardly say the 175s, and their sister 180s, have provided “steady service”. They’ve always been a bag of spanners. 175s were self-immolating back in FNW days.

It should also be noted that TfW Rail don’t maintain the 175s- CAF do.

For a number of years Alston at Chester have managed to keep the 175s in relatively fine fettle despite their short comings. As evidenced by the recent fires and fleet suspension that is no longer the case. TfW (rail) as the operator of the service are responsible for using properly maintained trains on their services. If they contract that out to CAF they still need a to have in place as the ORR put it "effective arrangements for the organisation, control and monitoring for maintenance of the class 175 fleet"

But yes, TfW Rail are terrible and Arriva before them were amazing(!)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==


The 230s are Vivarail. Vivarail went bust.

And TfW bought the 230s outright before that happened and have employed Ricardo to 'fix' the hybrid system and Stadler and or some Vivarail employees to maintain them at Birkenhead. As owner and operator it is for Tfw to have "effective arraignments" in place.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

You can't put those two on the same page. 67/Mk4 sets seem to be behaving reasonably well these days.

How many sets are in traffic 2 or 3? How long as it been since the last big failure week and a bit?

 

[Krokodil]

How many sets are in traffic 2 or 3? How long as it been since the last big failure week and a bit?

Three diagrams covered today, with no sets having to be withdrawn part way through the day. Leaps and bounds over the 230s. Percentage wise, probably comparable to some of the other fleets.

Do tell me when was the last one to cause a major farce? Here defined as one sitting down on a running line for an appreciable period of time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==

For a number of years Alston at Chester have managed to keep the 175s in relatively fine fettle despite their short comings. As evidenced by the recent fires

Just about the first thing that a 175 did when newly vinyled in TfW colours (so still maintained by Alstom) was catch fire.

 

[tomuk]

Three diagrams covered today, with no sets having to be withdrawn part way through the day. Leaps and bounds over the 230s. Percentage wise, probably comparable to some of the other fleets.

Do tell me when was the last one to cause a major farce? Here defined as one sitting down on a running line for an appreciable period of time.

So a good day today then. How many sets are the overall, eight? You would think that more could be diagrammed. Was the dragging brakes issue about two weeks ago?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 May 2023 ==


Just about the first thing that a 175 did when newly vinyled in TfW colours (so still maintained by Alstom) was catch fire.

I said relatively over time, particularly when compared to their Class 180 sisters. Their general level of acceptability has of course fallen of cliff with the multiple fires and mass withdrawal.

 

[northernchris]

I don't believe it to be better under OLR than Arriva. Serco Abellio doesn't come into it as they haven't had the franchise for the past 7 years. You can say that the stillborn 172 order could've prevented parts of May 2018, but that was cancelled by (a labour controlled - the grass isn't always greener on the other side) central government, not Northern Rail.

I would agree with this. Performance under OLR is still lower than the Serco/Abellio era despite a more modern fleet and a thinned out timetable. Short forms are still too common and Northern's customer services are woeful, they have a habit of deadlocking the most simplest of requests. I feel anyone getting excited that things will improve at TPE are in for a disappointment

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't even think things west side have improved beyond what happened/was going to happen under Arriva anyways. OLR is not the magic silver bullet some people think it is.

Who exactly thinks that? In their statement announcing OLR taking over TPE the government specifically stated it isn't some magic silver bullet that will fix all of the problems overnight.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Who exactly thinks that? In their statement announcing OLR taking over TPE the government specifically stated it isn't some magic silver bullet that will fix all of the problems overnight.

There have been posts here by users who are genuinely happy first have gone and think OLR will be great. The problems won't be fixed overnight and may never will under OLR.

 

[Some guy]

There have been posts here by users who are genuinely happy first have gone and think OLR will be great. The problems won't be fixed overnight and may never will under OLR.

Maybe if they go and look back at the rostering and not get 3 different crew changes on a Liverpool to Newcastle service and retrain the routes staff lost so more end to end journeys can be done. On the west coast route First messed up the moment they stopped sending Manchester crews to Scotland and Glasgow crews to Manchester

 

[irish_rail]

Maybe if they go and look back at the rostering and not get 3 different crew changes on a Liverpool to Newcastle service and retrain the routes staff lost so more end to end journeys can be done. On the west coast route First messed up the moment they stopped sending Manchester crews to Scotland and Glasgow crews to Manchester

Whilst this is what SHOULD happen, with DFt now at the helm, it will probably go the other way! Maybe Lime st will only go as far as Piccadilly, and York as far as Leeds!!!

 

[Agent_Squash]

Whilst this is what SHOULD happen, with DFt now at the helm, it will probably go the other way! Maybe Lime st will only go as far as Piccadilly, and York as far as Leeds!!!

The DfT let Thameslink go to end-to-end crewing for reliability. I wouldn't rule it out totally.