Boarding as doors are closing

[Bletchleyite]

That isn’t the example being talked about. In any case people missing a train shouldn't ever mean they have to spend the night “on the street” - again that’s typical hyperbole.

There's a Disputes thread going on at present about exactly that.

 

[Ashley Hill]

We seem to be drifting towards connectional policy and away from closing doors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not to anywhere near the same extent; it's also interesting to see the arguments made against doing this by some people in this thread, when by your own admission it does still happen in the UK.

I've never heard of any such moans for trains being held for connections but if your experience differs, then so be it!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==


And also often not, as I've observed many times.

It should be easily possible to use technology to risk/benefit analyse holding any given connection these days.

 

[43066]

it's also interesting to see the arguments made against doing this by some people in this thread, when by your own admission it does still happen in the UK.

I think the argument is against doing it as a general rule, rather than against ever doing it. There are clearly cases where it’s the only sensible thing to do.

I've never heard of any such moans for trains being held for connections but if your experience differs, then so be it!

People complain about delays for any and and all reasons. I have indeed heard that specific moan, most recently (via the guard) when being held at a location in the midlands on the last London train, awaiting a late running regional connection. Their concern (understandably) being their ability to make their own onward connections in London. Hence it’s always a balancing act.

 

[michael74]

Are you staff? If not, then I'd have responded the same way. Nothing worse than a fellow passenger taking it upon themselves to be a busybody.

Yes I am and was the Guard who had to complete a delay attribution because the 3 minute delay ended up delaying the service waiting for us at a passing loop, so that's 6+ minutes across 2 services and 100s of people delayed. And I was late home because I had to stay after my diagram to fill in an accident form and an incident form because someone decided that the hustle alarms and regular do not board the train when the doors are closing announcements are not applicable to him.....

 

[yorkie]

I think the argument is against doing it as a general rule, rather than against ever doing it. There are clearly cases where it’s the only sensible thing to do.

And yet we've had various posts trying to argue against doing this; it's a circular argument which has been done to death.

People complain about delays for any and and all reasons.

Of course a minority of people moan at everything; but they are irrelevant.

I have indeed heard that specific moan when we were held at a location in the midlands on the last London train, awaiting a late running connection. Their concern (understandably) being their ability to make their own onward connections in London. Hence it’s always a balancing act.

Without knowing the specific details it's difficult to comment, but I suspect anyone moaning at others making their connection may not realise that if their own connection is not maintained alternative arrangements will be made.

Such moans are not relevant in my opinion and such moaning should not dictate policy or actions taken.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Who said anything about trains being delayed by 30 seconds? That's not been my experience.

You said, "Happens all the time, especially on the tube, usually without any problems." in what the context suggested was a reference to people holding doors open. Is that not what you were referring to?

In my experience, when something prevents doors closing on the tube, that results in the train being held while the driver possibly makes an announcement, reopens then closes all doors, etc.

 

[Edsmith]

You said, "Happens all the time, especially on the tube, usually without any problems." in what the context suggested was a reference to people holding doors open. Is that not what you were referring to?

In my experience, when something prevents doors closing on the tube, that results in the train being held while the driver possibly makes an announcement, reopens then closes all doors, etc.

People jumping on when the alarm is sounding

 

[Bletchleyite]

People jumping on when the alarm is sounding

Saw it this very evening. The train departed without delay.

 

[43066]

Of course a minority of people moan at everything; but they are irrelevant.

The difficulty, as ever, is choosing whose moans to listen to, and whose to ignore! The starting point is to run as many trains as possible on time - that will get rid of a lot of them, simply by preventing them in the first place!

Without knowing the specific details it's difficult to comment, but I suspect anyone moaning at others making their connection may not realise that if their own connection is not maintained alternative arrangements will be made.

From memory on that occasion the guard did end up trying to organise alternatives.

The problem is that this is invariably difficult for trains arriving into London at 2330 or later: Onward connections are getting thin on the ground, and people might be hoping to jump onto the tube to another London terminal and straight onto a tightly timed train heading to the South coast, for example. From bitter experience waiting for a taxi in central London isn’t ideal, can take a long time, and will often mean getting home *much* later than expected.

There’s also virtually nobody around when we get back to London on those services. Perhaps a few cleaners and a relief driver waiting to take the same unit back out to the depot to stable! I have no idea who would make onward arrangements at that point if the passengers haven’t asked the guard to do so, for whatever reason.

Such moans are not relevant in my opinion and such moaning should not dictate policy or actions taken.

A lot of railway decision making involves prioritising competing moans.

 

[VC00]

I think a big problem at play is trains leaving early - very often I see services leave 1m - 30s early, only to go and sit at the next station early. Mixed with other trains running a 1 - 2m behind schedule it makes catching connections impossible (even if running)

 

[yorkie]

I think a big problem at play is trains leaving early - very often I see services leave 1m - 30s early, only to go and sit at the next station early. Mixed with other trains running a 1 - 2m behind schedule it makes catching connections impossible (even if running)

That's a can of worms that has been debated many times before; my view remains unchanged and I am sure those who disagree with me (and also disagree with SBB etc.) have also not changed their views either!

 

[ChewChewTrain]

I refuse to re open the doors when people do this. I just sit there with the doors closed waiting and waiting. They generally let go at some point at which point power is taken.

A year or so ago, at a station with no platform staff, I came running onto the platform just as the doors completed closing on the (DOO) service I’d been hoping to catch. I gave a resigned sigh and sadly began walking to the nearest bench to wait for the next service, but then I heard the sweet sound of beeps and the doors were reopened just for me! I waved gratefully to the driver and hopped on.

I don’t know if what the driver did was bending the rules, but it was nice to have been rewarded for the “correct” response (i.e. not gesturing angrily at the driver, or trying to force them to reopen the doors by touching the train and refusing to let go as described above).

 

[181]

If a connection is held without authority from control any delay caused is investigated and the person who made that decision is held responsible

If people saw the results of a trap and drag, they'd definitely reconsider. If the train moves, they end up like a spinning top between the train and platform and usually end up asphyxiating to death once the train comes to a stop. It's awful.

The latter point is all the more reason why, regardless of the rights and wrongs of how many people are delayed for how long, shutting the doors of a train as a connecting train is arriving on the other side of the same platform would appear to be a health and safety risk which should be avoided, without the need to seek permission from control. (Although I suspect some might make the case that the solution is to delay opening the doors of the incoming train, so perhaps we should be careful what we wish for).

I’ve often found that waiting for one late passenger ends up waiting for another and then another. There has to be a cut off point and that is the departure time. A minute here and another minute there soon adds up and staff get chased up by delay attribution.

That seems fair enough at somewhere like Birmingham New Street where presumably there'll often be someone who just misses the train however long you wait, but in the Newark example I presume there would just have been the passengers off the Lincoln train and then no more.

 

[Krokodil]

Last minute punters are now getting in the habit of standing within the platform train interface waiting to be let on should the doors have shut. They will then stay there as they know the train shouldn’t leave with them there and no manner of shouting will persuade them to move. It’s often just easier to reopen and let them on. Passenger 1 Guard 0.

The solution is for the guard not to back down. Stay there until they move back, however long it takes.

A year or so ago, at a station with no platform staff, I came running onto the platform just as the doors completed closing on the (DOO) service I’d been hoping to catch. I gave a resigned sigh and sadly began walking to the nearest bench to wait for the next service, but then I heard the sweet sound of beeps and the doors were reopened just for me! I waved gratefully to the driver and hopped on.

I don’t know if what the driver did was bending the rules, but it was nice to have been rewarded for the “correct” response (i.e. not gesturing angrily at the driver, or trying to force them to reopen the doors by touching the train and refusing to let go as described above).

That reminds me, years ago I was running down the road for a train which would depart from the other side of a level crossing. The yellow light came on, followed by the wig-wags and so I stoped running, thinking that I'd better start looking for the long-overgrown pedestrian subway that I'd heard about (which I think had been fenced off anyway by then). The box window opened and the crossing keeper ushered me across before dropping the barriers.

Said crossing is now controlled from a ROC via CCTV. For some reason I doubt that late-running passengers get the same level of service these days.

 

[Purple Train]

Happens all the time on the Elizabeth line. The one that was "most serious" was a member of railway staff doing it, meaning a loss of around 30 seconds to go through the door cycle again on an already-delayed service running just in front of the service scheduled 15 minutes behind it. All the regular punters seem to time it just right to avoid brushing the door edges - practice?
I'd like to see them try it on a 165 though - the doors on those are like a mousetrap!

I've seen this happen more, with people standing by the side of the train and holding their hand on the door open button. As the train can't move, and DOO dispatch means the driver would have to get out to say something (instead of a dispatcher that could shout at them), the doors are usually reopened. As with everything, once people learn (and share) this 'hack' it will lead to more people trying the same thing.

I've seen the opposite, with a 378 pulling up at West Hampstead. Set stops. I place hand on door button, as do several others (not on the same door, mind you!) A few seconds later, train moves forward a couple of metres (at very slow speed), necessitating quick removal of hand from door button! I can only assume that the train initially stopped just short of the marker. It did annoy me slightly that late-comers aren't given the same treatment, but that's just my evil streak

 

[baz962]

Severity: high
Likelihood: low

People do it all the time. Hardly any are trapped and dragged.

Video of a fiery plane crash doesn't put me off flying.

Likelihood.. more than you think. But if it doesn't lead to an injury you won't hear about it.

 

[43066]

I think a big problem at play is trains leaving early - very often I see services leave 1m - 30s early, only to go and sit at the next station early. Mixed with other trains running a 1 - 2m behind schedule it makes catching connections impossible (even if running)

Trains closing doors before booked departure isn’t “leaving early” it’s done to ensure a timely departure, so that the dispatch process finishes and the wheels start moving as close to on time as possible. In the same breath you’re also complaining about trains running one or two minutes behind schedule which is exactly what will happen if every train ends up leaving 30 seconds to 1m late.

By connections, it doesn’t sound like you’re talking about official connections, as these generally have quite a bit of padding built in. If you make an unofficial connection then great (as I do probably 90% of the time I attempt one) then great, but you can hardly complain if you don’t.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

shutting the doors of a train as a connecting train is arriving on the other side of the same platform would appear to be a health and safety risk

It isn’t a health and safety risk in and of itself if dispatch is carried out correctly.

 

[TUC]

The issue can arise for passengers with genuine concern to not be separated from their luggage or even their children. If you are travelling alone with several bags plus children, and so you need two trips through the doors to lift them all on board i can see why, rightly or wrongly, a passenger might want to seek to stop the doors from closing before the task is completed (albeit not knowing that it may not stop the train from departing). The answer lies in others having the courtesy to offer to help a passenger in such circumstances.

 

[johnny_t]

Better now than in the days of slam door commuter trains, when people would regularly get on (and off) whilst the train was already in motion. I remember seeing one guy who'd not got things right, having to be hauled in by other passengers when the train was out of the platform.

 

[al78]

Reading this thread leads me to believe the issue is the difference between the perception of an individual passenger and the operational difficulties of the railway.

An individual might think holding a door will "only" delay the train by a few seconds so they believe there is no consequence whilst saving themself and their companion(s) a significant wait for the next train. In reality, some parts of the rail network are operating very close to saturation, there is little to no slack in the timetable, so a few seconds delay cannot be absorbed and leads to knock-on delays which can grow and spread like a ripple. These delays last until beyond peak time when the timetable is less rammed and trains can regress back to the timetable, but in that time thousands might experience nuisance delays and/or missed connections.

 

[baz962]

But what a lot of people don't seem to realise is that even if you had say five minutes dwell at a platform, that people would turn up right at the last minute of the five and still delay the train. The other point is that if you wait for one person then as they get on a second or a third or fourth person turns up, then where do you draw the line.

 

[al78]

But what a lot of people don't seem to realise is that even if you had say five minutes dwell at a platform, that people would turn up right at the last minute of the five and still delay the train. The other point is that if you wait for one person then as they get on a second or a third or fourth person turns up, then where do you draw the line.

Well if they are as much as five minutes late they have no complaint about having the doors closed on them.

 

[najaB]

Although I wouldn't want to encourage over-zealous health and safety, I wonder whether anyone has ever done a risk assessment of this aspect of Advances.

I wouldn't say it's very high up on the list, given that journey planners won't give you a connection that's less than the minimum, so it's down to the combination of late running and/or passengers who are more knowledgeable than average about ticketing T&Cs.

 

[Bikeman78]

A few times lately, I’ve witnessed passengers boarding trains as the doors are closing and ignoring platform staff shouting at them not to, with no obvious repercussions.

What are people’s opinions of these passengers? Would anyone here ever board as doors were closing, and, if so, would a shout from staff make them reconsider?

Are these passengers breaking any byelaws? Do they ever get into trouble or cause serious incidents?

This seems to be a UK thing. On the Dutch railways, the only station I can think of that has dispatch staff is Schiphol. Everywhere else, the guard deals with dispatch on trains that can be up to 12 cars long, sometimes formed of double decker stock. They close the doors, check that no one is stuck in the doors, close their local door and give the driver the signal to depart. After that, the train will depart, no matter how many people are pressing the open buttons, even as it starts to move. I witnessed it happen several time just a few weeks ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This seems to be a UK thing. On the Dutch railways, the only station I can think of that has dispatch staff is Schiphol. Everywhere else, the guard deals with dispatch on trains that can be up to 12 cars long, sometimes formed of double decker stock. They close the doors, check that no one is stuck in the doors, close their local door and give the driver the signal to depart. After that, the train will depart, no matter how many people are pressing the open buttons, even as it starts to move. I witnessed it happen several time just a few weeks ago.

Since the death on Merseyrail, it's no longer acceptable to dispatch a train with anyone touching it (if it ever really was).

 

[Bikeman78]

Of course. I still do worry a little when I know a DOO driver is opening and closing doors within 20 seconds at multiple stops though.

What's the problem, on a lightly loaded train? Doesn't it happen on the underground all the time?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 May 2023 ==

Since the death on Merseyrail, it's no longer acceptable to dispatch a train with anyone touching it (if it ever really was).

But once all doors, including the local door, are closed, who is going to see someone touching the train? Dispatch staff are very much a UK thing. It would be interesting to compare death/injury statistics at stations for NL versus UK.

 

[RailWonderer]

GWR run an announcement 'do not attempt to board or leave the train as the doors are closing' on the 387s but not on the IETs, presumably on higher frequency shorter distance services people do it more.

 

[TUC]

Reading this thread leads me to believe the issue is the difference between the perception of an individual passenger and the operational difficulties of the railway.

An individual might think holding a door will "only" delay the train by a few seconds so they believe there is no consequence whilst saving themself and their companion(s) a significant wait for the next train. In reality, some parts of the rail network are operating very close to saturation, there is little to no slack in the timetable, so a few seconds delay cannot be absorbed and leads to knock-on delays which can grow and spread like a ripple. These delays last until beyond peak time when the timetable is less rammed and trains can regress back to the timetable, but in that time thousands might experience nuisance delays and/or missed connections.

A.though when a disabled passenger needs support boarding a train, saturation point or not, those delays rightly just have have to be absorbed.

 

[Ashley Hill]

A.though when a disabled passenger needs support boarding a train, saturation point or not, those delays rightly just have have to be absorbed.

And they are.