Boarding as doors are closing

[DynamicSpirit]

Happens all the time, especially on the tube, usually without any problems.

Train getting delayed for 30 seconds, delaying everyone else's journey doesn't count as a problem to you? Remember on the tube, there's probably another train just behind so you're likely delaying that train too, as well as causing a longer gap between trains at all stations further down the line.

 

[baz962]

This has always been something of an issue, but either a) we're all getting old and miserable and it's been going on for ages or b) this is part of a general trend of behaviour post-lockdown which goes along with not listening to announcements, fare evasion, phones on loud on trains and other general anti-social / selfish behaviour in public settings.

It certainly puts my teeth on edge a bit, and I imagine DOO drivers are certainly concerned about this, especially after the initial check has been done to close doors. Luckily, there should always be a second train safety check.

Not a or b. For me it's both , very much both. Getting old and cranky and as a driver and ex Doo it drives me up the wall.

 

[E27007]

It is worth reminding ourselves of the West Wickham Station fatality, this incident caused a lot of concern for DOO drivers of the TOC. A change in DOO operation came about, Drivers have to come to a stand and wait several seconds before operating the Open Door buttons

At around 11:35 hrs on 10 April 2015, a passenger was dragged along the platform at West Wickham station, south London, when the 11:00 hrs Southeastern service from London Cannon Street to Hayes (Kent) departed while her backpack strap was trapped in the doors of the train. As it moved off, she fell onto the platform and then through the gap between the platform and train, suffering life-changing injuries.

The backpack strap became trapped when the train doors closed unexpectedly and quickly while she was alighting. Testing showed that this potentially unsafe situation could only occur when a passenger pressed a door-open button, illuminated to show it was available for use, within a period of less than one second beginning shortly after the train driver initiated the door closure sequence.

RAIB identified this door behaviour, which was not known to the owner or operator, and issued urgent safety advice. In response to this, the railway industry undertook a review which identified 21 other types of train that permit passenger doors to be opened for a short period after door closure is initiated by train crew. The industry is now seeking ways to deal with this risk.

The train was being driven by a trainee driver under the supervision of an instructor. The service was driver only operation, which meant that before leaving West Wickham station, and after all train doors were closed, drivers were required to check that it was safe to depart by viewing CCTV monitors located on the platform. Two of these monitor images showed that a passenger appeared to be trapped but, although visible from the driving cab, neither the trainee driver nor the instructor was aware of this. Although the RAIB has not been able to establish why the trapped passenger was not seen before the train departed, a number of possible explanations have been identified.

 

[ainsworth74]

I suppose part of the problem is that train doors are probably the only automatic doors that members of the public encounter regularly that do not re-open when they either come in contact with a body part or when a sensor beam is broken. So it's not entirely surprising that a small number (and it is a small number, how many passengers manage to get on and off trains every day without incident?) come to grief when it comes to train doors. Personally I'm not sure that there's much of a solution. The Risk Assessment box ticking approach to reducing the risk (something which since I've done some training I now see everywhere!) would probably be audible announcements and warning signs. But the actual effect of those measures would be close to zero (as they are with the majority of announcements and signs). I suspect the only real measure that might help is ensuring that interlock cannot be gained when there's an obstruction in the doorway as we've seen a number of traps and drags (I think including someone with an arm trapped so not just a bag loop) but that itself is of course fraught with issues itself such as false alarms delaying the dispatch process.

Of course trains themselves can confuse matters as some will spring open again if they detect an obstruction whilst closing on eco-mode (to keep the hot air out or the hot air in season depending) whilst standing at a station for a while (I think 185s for instance do this). The warning noise in both situations is the same as well whether or not the door will reopen as it closes.

 

[43066]

Two of these monitor images showed that a passenger appeared to be trapped

Not necessarily the case at all.

 

[zero]

In Sydney, the door alarm suburban and intercity trains sounds only as the doors actually close, not before, so the guard pushes a button which plays a recorded message “Doors closing, please stand clear,” which acts as a substitute for the alarm sounding beforehand, and then pushes another one to immediately close the doors. This recorded message is spoken relatively slowly, so if I hear “Doors closing-“ I know to quickly hop on. What’s stupid are the people that get on after that message has finished as the doors then close immediately. That’s why the recorded message and the actual door button are separate buttons on the newer stock panels. The guard checks people have heeded the sign and that the doors are clear, then closes them immediately.

In Sydney I once saw a man jump between the carriages of a train just *after* the doors had closed, it was one of the older sets (S/K/C, not sure which) where the gangways were open to the elements, so you could "relatively" safely climb on board that way. Of course the guard had to check he hadn't fallen onto the tracks or something, so the train was delayed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In Sydney I once saw a man jump between the carriages of a train just *after* the doors had closed, it was one of the older sets (S/K/C, not sure which) where the gangways were open to the elements, so you could "relatively" safely climb on board that way. Of course the guard had to check he hadn't fallen onto the tracks or something, so the train was delayed.

Yes, K Sets and a small number of V Sets (those with intermediate carriages converted from redundant cabs) still have open gangways which are far, far more dangerous than the external doors will ever be.

 

[E27007]

From the RAIB report, the passenger at West Wickham did nothing wrong, she pressed the Open Door button and began to disembark, the doors closed quickly and unexpectedly upon her backpack. RAIB identified some sort of flaw in the door control system.
The same flaw was widespread and identified in many other fleets of stock.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

From the RAIB report, the passenger at West Wickham did nothing wrong, she pressed the Open Door button and began to disembark, the doors closed quickly and unexpectedly upon her backpack. RAIB identified some sort of design flaw in the door system, and the fault was widespread and identified in many other fleets of stock.

Indeed twice in the past year I've alighted a 450 at Aldershot and the doors have suddenly closed immediately behind me. No beeps or anything, just an instant close. It does happen.

 

[43066]

From the RAIB report, the passenger at West Wickham did nothing wrong, she pressed the Open Door button and began to disembark, the doors closed quickly and unexpectedly upon her backpack. RAIB identified some sort of design fault in the door system, and the fault was widespread and identified in many other fleets of stock.

It isn’t really a question of “fault”.

IIRC she realised late that it was her stop and alighted after the door closure had been initiated, hence the doors closed immediately and trapped her bag strap, which would have been invisible on the monitors but wasn’t thick though to prevent interlock being obtained. Unfortunately she tried to pull the strap out rather than releasing the bag. The instructor would also have been unable to see the monitors during dispatch due to the design of the networker cab.

The same incident could most certainly happen again.

 

[E27007]

Indeed twice in the past year I've alighted a 450 at Aldershot and the doors have suddenly closed immediately behind me. No beeps or anything, just an instant close. It does happen.

Twenty five years ago, on 455 stock drivers had figured outr how to secure the train quickly when there was trouble on the platform, a non-standard door closure bypassing the normal annunciator and possibly the timed-delay clkosure of the doors too, it involved a bit of dexterity in operating a Circuit Breaker and Close Door controls in the driving cab.

 

[Horizon22]

Not necessarily the case at all.

Of course. I still do worry a little when I know a DOO driver is opening and closing doors within 20 seconds at multiple stops though.

This behaviour can get picked up through remote downloads of the OTDR (on train data recorder) if an assessment is done but not guaranteed.

 

[Turtle]

People generally don’t seem bothered if it doesn’t hinder the progress of the train. This guy must have been in a hurry though.

Instagram

www.instagram.com

At least he didn't obstruct the doors or delay the train!

 

[norbitonflyer]

trying to board whilst the doors closing is not a good idea, which is why dispatch staff and train crew should not close the doors in the faces of people making a connection.

 

[Horizon22]

trying to board whilst the doors closing is not a good idea, which is why dispatch staff and train crew should not close the doors in the faces of people making a connection.

You’ve just contradicted yourself there? The door closure process can take a few seconds and that’s time for someone to run towards closing doors. That’s what is being discussed.

 

[E27007]

It isn’t really a question of “fault”.

IIRC she realised late that it was her stop and alighted after the door closure had been initiated, hence the doors closed immediately and trapped her bag strap, which would have been invisible on the monitors but wasn’t thick though to prevent interlock being obtained. Unfortunately she tried to pull the strap out rather than releasing the bag. The instructor would also have been unable to see the monitors during dispatch due to the design of the networker cab.

The same incident could most certainly happen again.

It was one of those slices of swiss cheese situations, where all the holes lined up to her detriment.
The RAIB reproduced the situation, from a summary of the RAIB report:

Testing showed that this potentially unsafe situation could only occur when a passenger pressed a door-open button, illuminated to show it was available for use, within a period of less than one second beginning shortly after the train driver initiated the door closure sequence.

That short interval of 1 second or less between the interaction of the two innocent parties of driver and passenger operating their respective controls seems to be the flaw in the logic of the sequence

 

[norbitonflyer]

You’ve just contradicted yourself there? The door closure process can take a few seconds and that’s time for someone to run towards closing doors. That’s what is being discussed.

Doors start to close on connecting train as doors on incoming train across the platform open. I've seen it happen. (Crush loaded 153, so probably 70 people wanting to make the connection - and the next train would not be for an hour). Highly irresponsible bahaviour by the dispatcher, who should not have been allowed anywhere near the public.

 

[TurboMan]

It is worth reminding ourselves of the West Wickham Station fatality, this incident caused a lot of concern for DOO drivers of the TOC. A change in DOO operation came about, Drivers have to come to a stand and wait several seconds before operating the Open Door buttons

Do you mean 'door close'? While pausing before releasing doors is a known means of mitigating the risk of wrong-side door release, it wouldn't have had any impact on the outcome of the West Wickham incident. It was the limited time the doors were released (i.e. between doors being released and being closed) that was highlighted in the West Wickham RAIB report.

 

[43066]

Doors start to close on connecting train as doors on incoming train across the platform open. I've seen it happen. (Crush loaded 153, so probably 70 people wanting to make the connection - and the next train would not be for an hour). Highly irresponsible bahaviour by the dispatcher, who should not have been allowed anywhere near the public.

So not closing doors “in the faces” of anyone, as you suggested above.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

I remember doing this when trying to do a P5 to P4 cross-platform connection at Crewe from a late running incoming train, having positioned myself in the optimal carriage of the latter to dash across

I got a foot in the door but the door was instantly shut by the guard when I moved it out. I was made to feel guilty both by the guard on the Derby train and people on this forum. So I had an hour to wait.

Those who are really guilty are those in the railway industry who put punctuality targets ahead of the convenience of passengers.

 

[zwk500]

I remember doing this when trying to do a P5 to P4 cross-platform connection at Crewe from a late running incoming train, having positioned myself in the optimal carriage of the latter to dash across

I got a foot in the door but the door was instantly shut by the guard when I moved it out. I was made to feel guilty both by the guard on the Derby train and people on this forum. So I had an hour to wait.

Those who are really guilty are those in the railway industry who put punctuality targets ahead of the convenience of passengers.

The problem is not the punctuality targets, but the first train running late, surely?

 

[43066]

Those who are really guilty are those in the railway industry who put punctuality targets ahead of the convenience of passengers.

The punctuality targets are there to benefit more passengers overall. The people who should feel guilty are the people who behave as you had done which, you seem not to realise, is often the reason for trains running late in the first place.

 

[MrJeeves]

Are these passengers breaking any byelaws?

Section 10(5) of the Byelaws:

In the case of automatic closing doors, no person shall enter or leave by the door when it is closing.

Technically they could be reported for prosecution! Of course, that's so extraordinarily unlikely unless someone was also generally just being a pain in the backside, and this was the sure-fire way to prosecute.

We did have someone on the Disputes part of the forum receive a letter for walking the wrong way on an escalator. I believe they got that down to a warning!

 

[geoffk]

I've seen this happen more, with people standing by the side of the train and holding their hand on the door open button. As the train can't move, and DOO dispatch means the driver would have to get out to say something (instead of a dispatcher that could shout at them), the doors are usually reopened. As with everything, once people learn (and share) this 'hack' it will lead to more people trying the same thing.

On two occasions in Ireland I've seen a driver on a DOO local train set off, then stop and reopen the doors for a late arriving passenger. One was at Drumcondra in the Dublin suburbs, the other somewhere on the Cork - Cobh branch. This would never happen here and bus drivers rarely do it now.

 

[roadie]

Thankfully I've never needed to stop the train, but I certainly wouldn't be letting them on afterwards!

I've had dispatch at Euston aborted just prior to the RA a few times though

Not helped by not advertising departure platforms till a few minutes before departure, creating a rush for trains especially at Euston where advanced tickets don't seem to be liked and you have queues waiting for one person to check tickets at the barrier and 4 or 5 staff looking on. You then get the feeling from the announcements and staff that you should be running for the train as us passengers are causing delays. This then feeds onto how we behave around the railways with people running for trains, especially when you get constant announcements that your ticket is only valid on certain trains where connections are tight.

 

[MrJeeves]

This would never happen here

I've seen it happen quite a few times, and had it happen to me recently, even on the Brighton mainline with Thameslink. Has to be a particularly cheerful driver, though!

 

[michael74]

I would agree. I personally am usually quite happy to jump on board if the alarms have just sounded

Are you really? I doubt your Guard/Dispatcher/DOO driver is.....

- since as a regular passenger, I know there's a certain interval of time when the doors are not going to move, but I certainly won't if the doors are actually closing (or are evidently about to close).

You have more faith in the hustle alarm times and door close times than I. Some of the doors (especially on older BREL stock) are like a guillotine, I had a guy trap himself the other week, when I pointed out you shouldn't board when the doors are closing he replied with you don't need to tell me

 

[norbitonflyer]

So not closing doors “in the faces” of anyone, as you suggested above.

Absolutely in the faces - the first person out of the 153 (not me) did actually get a hand in the door of the Mark 4, but decided that achieving a right-time arrival for just his hand was not worth it.

And RTT showed the train arrived at Kings Cross two minutes early, although of course that was no consolation to the 70 would be passengers who got there an hour late. (And of course East Coast didn't have to pay a penny in compo, as it was East Midland who had to pay, despite arriving at Newark within 5 minutes of right time)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

The punctuality targets are there to benefit more passengers overall. The people who should feel guilty are the people who behave as you had done which, you seem not to realise, is often the reason for trains running late in the first place.

What a customer hostile attitude this response shows. Do you really believe that holding a train for an extra minute or so on a route with an hourly service (at that time) would somehow benefit more passengers? Which passengers do you have in mind? Was there really so little slack in the timetable (viz Crewe-Derby about 10-15 years ago)?

 

[43066]

Absolutely in the faces - the first person out of the 153 (not me) did actually get a hand in the door of the Mark 4, but decided that achieving a right-time arrival for just his hand was not worth it.

So not in their faces. The doors close after a hustle alarm. What you’re describing is people running at the train and attempting to board it when the doors were already closing.

And RTT showed the train arrived at Kings Cross two minutes early, although of course that was no consolation to the 70 would be passengers who got there an hour late. (And of course East Coast didn't have to pay a penny in compo, as it was East Midland who had to pay, despite arriving at Newark within 5 minutes of right time)

And why should east coast pay if their train was on time? Why should their passengers be delayed for 70 runners of a late connecting service?

As always people on here fail to see the bigger picture.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2023 ==

What a customer hostile attitude this response shows. Do you really believe that holding a train for an extra minute or so on a route with an hourly service (at that time) would somehow benefit more passengers? Which passengers do you have in mind? Was there really so little slack in the timetable (viz Crewe-Derby about 10-15 years ago)?

So you’re seriously on here now complaining about something that happened 15 years ago!?

It’s nonsense to suggest it’s “customer hostile” attitude. As a long-standing customer of the railway I would rather trains ran on time and weren’t held for connections, other than in some very limited circumstances, as discussed above. That benefits the greatest number of passengers overall - which is the name of the game.

Passengers are supposed to wait for trains, not the other way around!