Are trains deliberately never timetabled for precisely midnight?

[Basil Jet]

But as 2400 is not a real time, surely 0000 is the same day as 0001?

Which day is 23:59:60, when we have one?

 

[Haywain]

Doesn't the railway "day" start at 04:30 and not 00:00 though?

No, it finishes at 04:29 but starts at 00:01 the previous day.

 

[Oxfordblues]

As Gladys Knight might have sung: "He's leaving ... on that treble-zero one train to Georgia...."

 

[thenorthern]

Depends on which bit of the railway… when you work a night shift (say 22:00 to 06:00) when would you say your day started?

I was thinking in terms of ticketing it ends at 04:29, for most companies though I suppose the day ends at the end of service and starts at the start of service.

 

[Man_with_beard]

Looking through old national rail timetables from the 1970s, 80s and 90s I still can't find a single departure for 0000, and departure boards were manually operated in those days. Not using 00:00 could be down to just avoiding passenger confusion rather than thinking modern computer software is allergic to it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As Gladys Knight might have sung: "He's leaving ... on that treble-zero one train to Georgia...."

I seem to recall Anne announces 00something trains as "midnight N", e.g. "the midnight ten London Northwestern service to Northampton". You could just about cram "midnight-one" in!

 

[Surreytraveller]

I've known rail replacement buses turn up 24 hours early because planners have used midnight.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

From a very historical point of view, my timings colleagues (SR/SWD) never AFAIR used 2400/0000 as a timing reference once computers became involved, it was either 2359 or 0001. Most of my time was pen and paper so we used "a.m/p.m" which everyone (back then) understood.
The only instance of possible confusion with issued notices surrounded the BST/GMT changes, when, from a paper point of view 0300 was used as the changeover time reference, in my time at least. This was based around those services that were still planned to be moving on the ground at that hour, and in this case this related to only one train, 1B01, 0105 Waterloo to Southampton (aka: unofficially known amongst some of us as the 'vomit comet') which was due in to Southampton Central at 0252. The next planned movement in those days was the 0400 Guildford to Waterloo.

 

[Haywain]

This was based around those services that were still planned to be moving on the ground at that hour, and in this case this related to only one train, 1B01, 0105 Waterloo to Southampton

Did that run on Saturday nights?

 

[zwk500]

The only instance of possible confusion with issued notices surrounded the BST/GMT changes, when, from a paper point of view 0300 was used as the changeover time reference, in my time at least. This was based around those services that were still planned to be moving on the ground at that hour, and in this case this related to only one train, 1B01, 0105 Waterloo to Southampton (aka: unofficially known amongst some of us as the 'vomit comet') which was due in to Southampton Central at 0252. The next planned movement in those days was the 0400 Guildford to Waterloo.

There's a few more now on the Southern (not sure about the Wessex area) with Thameslink being a through-the-night operation. I've been shown the published intruction for one clock change (can't remember when), detailing which trains should be held and which should be allowed to run early to sertain points etc.

 

[D6130]

When I was involved in train planning (1977-1983), the primitive punch card-operated binary timetable database systems could not cope with 00 00 timings. I was told this on a course at Webb House, Crewe in May 1982. As TOPS dates from before that date - and TRUST from not long afterwards - it doesn't surprise me that 00 00 is still not used for timetabled arrivals and departures.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Did that run on Saturday nights?

Yes, if you assume 2400/0000 is the cut off point, in my day 1B01 ran Tuesday mornings to Sunday mornings, ie MX in railway speak (of the time). Due to planned engineering work it very rarely reached Southampton in my time, the often more usual termination point being Basingstoke with a bus forward.

 

[Llanigraham]

When I did my signalling course (at Leeds) we were told that 0000 did not exist and that we had to use either 2359 or 0001 in the TRB.

 

[zwk500]

Out of interest, do engineering works items in the WON ever start at 0000? Most obviously start earlier than that anyway so it isn't a problem, but I can't remember if 0000 or 0001 was used when needed.

 

[Annetts key]

When I did my signalling course (at Leeds) we were told that 0000 did not exist and that we had to use either 2359 or 0001 in the TRB.

Shame then that lots of computerised equipment such as (some) Train Describer systems, (some) remote control systems (Time Division Multiplexers -TDM), computer based interlockings, remote condition monitoring (RCM), level crossing clocks (that control the loud/reduced sound output of the Yodal alarms), some HABD systems and various other equipment all do use 00:00 as a valid time

Out of interest, do engineering works items in the WON ever start at 0000? Most obviously start earlier than that anyway so it isn't a problem, but I can't remember if 0000 or 0001 was used when needed.

I can’t say that I can remember having seen either 00:00 or 00:01, as most either start before midnight, typically at or before 23:40. Or they start sometime after midnight, such as 00:30 or maybe later.
But then, most shifts that I worked started hours before midnight, so it would not be memorable.

Certainly, at least one proposed roster (from the company side) that I have seen included some shifts that started at 00:00. And such a shift is considered as starting on the day after 23:59.

 

[75A]

Certainly, at least one proposed roster (from the company side) that I have seen included some shifts that started at 00:00. And such a shift is considered as starting on the day after 23:59.

Two years running I was rostered @ 00:01 on Boxing Day morning in the 1980's.

 

[The Planner]

Out of interest, do engineering works items in the WON ever start at 0000? Most obviously start earlier than that anyway so it isn't a problem, but I can't remember if 0000 or 0001 was used when needed.

0001

 

[Lewisham2221]

I really don’t understand how people can have such difficultly. 23:59:59 is the last second of a (24 hour) day. 00:00:00 is the start of a (24 hour) day. Hence if you don’t include the seconds, 23:59 is the last minute of the day and 00:00 is still the start of the next day.

Hence 23:59 on Monday ticks over to 00:00 on Tuesday.

People don’t get confused when watching their own digital clocks or watches…

Whilst it causes less of a problem Mon-Fri, planning a journey for around midnight on Friday night would quite quickly get confusing if 2400 wasn't used. It ensures it ends up at the correct "end" of a timetable (I.e at the end of the day, rather than the beginning). I can't imagine many people planning their journey home on a "Friday" night are going to instinctively consult the Saturday timetable.

 

[30907]

Whilst it causes less of a problem Mon-Fri, planning a journey for around midnight on Friday night would quite quickly get confusing if 2400 wasn't used. It ensures it ends up at the correct "end" of a timetable (I.e at the end of the day, rather than the beginning). I can't imagine many people planning their journey home on a "Friday" night are going to instinctively consult the Saturday timetable.

The problem is that 2400 day 1 and 0000 day 2 are the same time, which the human brain can probably cope with but other systems can't. 2359 and 0001 are unambiguous.

 

[Route115?]

I seem to rember from doing some timetable work for TUL fifteen years ago that their traffic day started & ended at 03:00 so it midnight wouldn't be an issue for them. (I don't know if this is still the case or what the effect of Night Tube is.)

 

[splashoutradio]

Like others have said, I can recall recall a note was printed in the older editions of the National Rail Timetable (NRT). Unfortunately I've not been able to find this, but have come across a paragraph printed in the NRT from around the year 2000 until production in the printed form was ceased.

 

[miklcct]

There's a few more now on the Southern (not sure about the Wessex area) with Thameslink being a through-the-night operation. I've been shown the published intruction for one clock change (can't remember when), detailing which trains should be held and which should be allowed to run early to sertain points etc.

Why don't just align the biannual timetable change with the clock change to avoid this problem?

The problem is that 2400 day 1 and 0000 day 2 are the same time, which the human brain can probably cope with but other systems can't. 2359 and 0001 are unambiguous.

Computer systems generally represent times as UNIX timestamps internally, which don't have this problem.

 

[zwk500]

Why don't just align the biannual timetable change with the clock change to avoid this problem?

It doesn't really solve the problem though, because the trains would still be in flight.

Also we align the timetable changes with Europe.

 

[Gaelan]

Computer systems generally represent times as UNIX timestamps internally, which don't have this problem.

UNIX timestamps aren’t really suitable for railway timetables, as they inherently encode both a date and time, whereas timetable times don’t have a date (because they represent a general pattern that applies on multiple days).

 

[Trackman]

Ok, it's not a real train (or is it??) but on the timetable - is the North Pole Santa International (or whatever) timed for 00:00 as departure?

 

[brad465]

In a way it's a shame there isn't a 00:00 timed departure as it would be interesting to hear how an automated announcement pronounces it. "O, O, hundred" would sound odd I think.